Mark Lundy - miscarriage of justice?

[korimako1]

So, at the end of the day who else would have benefitted from the deaths??

Here's some for you to think about. I saw an article stating lundys land package (purchase price$24,500 per hectare to lundy) sold for $36,000 per hectare to some americian buyers???? Also a witness who has permanent name suppression, for what reason I don't know, he's a dodgy shit. 4 uneliminated suspects.

[korimako1]

Nah, I can't draw for shit.

Beautiful absolutely beautiful

[Swoop]

That North & South article makes interesting reading.

[korimako1]

Ahem... I have validated Mr Lundy's drive.

I believe there is a reward out there for anyone who can replicate the drive. the money is safe. it cant be done regardless of drunken boasts. remember it must be done through peak hour traffic, petone and all the way to other side of pnth wait say 10 minutes to do the deed running to and from scene, and then back to petone.
Validate that.

[Winston001]

So the police, yet again, withhold information that could have potentially destroyed their case.

The police's explanation for Christine being in bed at 7pm was that in the phone conversation that she had with Mark that night he had convinced her to get into bed because he was coming home to have sex with her.

However, according to the North & South article.......

Julie Burnett, who rang Christine at 6.56pm
that Tuesday, inquired whether Mark would
be at wine club the following week. At trial,
she merely said Christine told her Mark was
out. But in a previously undisclosed notebook
from an interview with Burnett, Detective
Melinda Rix writes: “CL tells JB ML out and
will be back in town Wed” – not that she was
expecting him home any moment.

Ok. A few thoughts.

1. For years the police have been required to provide "discovery" which means copies of witness statements and officers notes, to the defense. Were Detective Rix's notes disclosed?

2. Discovery is not an exact science. There have been cases (such as corporate fraud) where the defense have been shown a warehouse of documents and told to help themselves. Funnily enough they miss stuff... :facepalm: The prosecution are now only supposed to disclose directly relevant information which means minor notes and docs get left out. It is entirely possible Detective Rix's notes were insignificant and overlooked - by both sides.

3. If Christine Lundy expected him home at any moment for an erotic adventure, that is intensely private and not the sort of thing she would be expected to share with others. Particularly if Mark was going to then return to Wellington to carry on with business. As far as the rest of the world was concerned, Mark was away until Wednesday and Christine would continue to say that because the private interlude was nobody elses business.

4. The central issue here is whether the police disclosed the Detective's notes. If not then that is a serious matter albeit perhaps not enough on its own to overturn the conviction.

Personally I've always wondered about this case. Lundy may be a pratt but its a hard ask to see him driving that journey.

[Katman]

If Christine Lundy expected him home at any moment for an erotic adventure, that is intensely private and not the sort of thing she would be expected to share with others.

I don't buy that at all.

All she would have needed to say was "he'll be home soon - I'll ask him".

There would be no need whatsoever to reveal the purpose of his return.

[scissorhands]

Dont join a wine club...
too many white collar drunks<_<

[korimako1]

4. The central issue here is whether the police disclosed the Detective's notes. If not then that is a serious matter albeit perhaps not enough on its own to overturn the conviction.


I dont know whether the detectives notes were disclosed or not but what is a serious matter is that detective Grantham, the officer in charge of the inquiry did some unusual things. And we also now know 12 and a half years later, 5 days before a privy council hearing a document never before released is given to the defence team. this document would have clearly alerted the defence and it was never disclosed by Grantham as required. Why? To secure a conviction, To ensure the defence didnt question the tissue evidence, or did he just have a brain fart and forget.

[Banditbandit]

I dont know whether the detectives notes were disclosed or not but what is a serious matter is that detective Grantham, the officer in charge of the inquiry did some unusual things. And we also now know 12 and a half years later, 5 days before a privy council hearing a document never before released is given to the defence team. this document would have clearly alerted the defence and it was never disclosed by Grantham as required. Why? To secure a conviction, To ensure the defence didnt question the tissue evidence, or did he just have a brain fart and forget.

Mark !!! Stop using the computers in the training wing and go and clean out your cell!!!

[Katman]

4. The central issue here is whether the police disclosed the Detective's notes. If not then that is a serious matter albeit perhaps not enough on its own to overturn the conviction.


Well, the article stated that the notebook was undisclosed.

The police should have no trouble disproving that statement if in fact it was offered up to the defense.

[korimako1]

Mark !!! Stop using the computers in the training wing and go and clean out your cell!!!

HaHa wearing your funny pants today are we.

[oldrider]

Will somebody forward Joe Karam's phone number to Mark Lundy please. :niceone:

[Drew]

Will somebody forward Joe Karam's phone number to Mark Lundy please. :niceone:Does Lundy need a PR rep too ya reckon?

[oldrider]

Does Lundy need a PR rep too ya reckon?

Joe should be consistent and to do the same for all of those on the same list of dodgy decisions like he thinks Bain got ... he would be really famous then! :blip:

[Maha]

Will somebody forward Joe Karam's phone number to Mark Lundy please. :niceone:

It's 0800 suckmedry

[Littleman]

I believe there is a reward out there for anyone who can replicate the drive. the money is safe. it cant be done regardless of drunken boasts. remember it must be done through peak hour traffic, petone and all the way to other side of pnth wait say 10 minutes to do the deed running to and from scene, and then back to petone.
Validate that.

One of the great mysteries is why there isn't some sort of KB/Cannon Ball run equivalent thats run annually on bravado with a conspiratorial mix. Sounds perfect. I would have thought like a red flag to a bull.

[korimako1]

One of the great mysteries is why there isn't some sort of KB/Cannon Ball run equivalent thats run annually on bravado with a conspiratorial mix. Sounds perfect. I would have thought like a red flag to a bull.

some students wanted to do the lundy 500 but the authorities canned it. just like the courier company, petone to palmerston north and return in under 3 hours. No Efing sense of humour.

[Murray]

I think the popo cocked up sticking to the time of death. If it had been later in the night or early morning it could have been him.

The witness who saw him was a complete waste of space and the house involved is very, very close to neighbours so early evening murder would have been heard but not at a later time when maybe the victims were asleep??

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think the popo cocked up sticking to the time of death. If it had been later in the night or early morning it could have been him.

The witness who saw him was a complete waste of space and the house involved is very, very close to neighbours so early evening murder would have been heard but not at a later time when maybe the victims were asleep??

That's my guess.

[Bald Eagle]

good chuckle this thread, some of folk guys should go into business defending all those innocent people, rotflmao

[Maha]

good chuckle this thread, some of folk guys should go into business defending all those innocent people, rotflmao

There should be a 'Hug A Criminal Day' ...April 1st seem appropriate.

[GDOBSSOR]

some students wanted to do the lundy 500 but the authorities canned it. just like the courier company, petone to palmerston north and return in under 3 hours. No Efing sense of humour.

As a student, I would have been totally in to do a Lundy 500. Some idiots think they can fucking rule everything and there was no reason to cancel it. It was a bit stoopid to have it on the anniversary of the murders though.

[Banditbandit]

As a student, I would have been totally in to do a Lundy 500. Some idiots think they can fucking rule everything and there was no reason to cancel it. It was a bit stoopid to have it on the anniversary of the murders though.

Why ? If Mark can do it at that time od day, month, year, then surely so can others ...

[Drew]

As a student, I would have been totally in to do a Lundy 500. Some idiots think they can fucking rule everything and there was no reason to cancel it. It was a bit stoopid to have it on the anniversary of the murders though.


Why ? If Mark can do it at that time od day, month, year, then surely so can others ...


I'm trying to figure out, who those trying to rule everything are.

And how exactly this obviously very clever student, intended to prove them idiots. What with it not having happened and all, I know who looks like the idiot.

[Banditbandit]

Don't worry Drew - just student humour .. you need never worry about it .. :innocent:

[scissorhands]

good chuckle this thread, some of folk guys should go into business defending all those innocent people, rotflmao

there seems to be a good 2 handfuls over the last 30 years eh?


I'm trying to figure out, who those trying to rule everything are.

And how exactly this obviously very clever student, intended to prove them idiots. What with it not having happened and all, I know who looks like the idiot.

they're everywhere.... Heil!

[Drew]

Don't worry Drew - just student humour .. you need never worry about it .. :innocent:I have children, I bloody might ya know. Despite prediction...and genetics, the little fuckers seem to be quite switched on.

[Banditbandit]

I have children, .


Jeez ... they let you do that ???

[Drew]

Jeez ... they let you do that ???Us low rent, fried chicken eating, ankle slappin, red neck, banjo strummin, white trash mutha fuckers have a tendency to not need permission.

Ya know, sister just in the next room and all.

[GDOBSSOR]

Why ? If Mark can do it at that time od day, month, year, then surely so can others ...

Because it is a very sore point for the families involved. I personally think that the whole 'mad dash' scenario is absolute bullshit, especially as there were lights still on in the house at 11pm which were off the next morning, meaning either Christine was still up or someone else was in the house at that time. Having a Lundy 500, especially in the timeframe available, illustrates how bullshit the scenario is. However... it is essentially making a joke out of a very grave situation, and I think the victims' families would have enough grief of their own to deal with on the anniversaries of the deaths without having it stirred up even more.

[Drew]

Because it is a very sore point for the families involved. I personally think that the whole 'mad dash' scenario is absolute bullshit, especially as there were lights still on in the house at 11pm which were off the next morning, meaning either Christine was still up or someone else was in the house at that time. Having a Lundy 500, especially in the timeframe available, illustrates how bullshit the scenario is. However... it is essentially making a joke out of a very grave situation, and I think the victims' families would have enough grief of their own to deal with on the anniversaries of the deaths without having it stirred up even more.

Aaaaand you were gonna be totally into it?

I'm missing something I think.

[Edbear]

http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.aspx?ID=10286

http://www.listener.co.nz/from-our-archive/mark-lundy-three-hours-to-kill/

http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/8813659/Key-evidence-bad-science-Lundy-appeal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Lundy

[korimako1]

Because it is a very sore point for the families involved. I personally think that the whole 'mad dash' scenario is absolute bullshit, especially as there were lights still on in the house at 11pm which were off the next morning, meaning either Christine was still up or someone else was in the house at that time. Having a Lundy 500, especially in the timeframe available, illustrates how bullshit the scenario is. However... it is essentially making a joke out of a very grave situation, and I think the victims' families would have enough grief of their own to deal with on the anniversaries of the deaths without having it stirred up even more.

you are correct, I think the original idea was to draw attention to the fact the drive cant be done but it fell flat because of the sensitivities of the case. the weggerys and the lundys felt it was bad taste,(copying the undy 500 CH CH to Dunedin as well.)
Meanwhile we wait with bated breath for the Privy Council decision.

[Katman]

On Third Degree tonight is an article on the Teina Pora case.

Should be interesting viewing.

[korimako1]

On Third Degree tonight is an article on the Teina Pora case.

Should be interesting viewing.

another case in the long list of Police botch ups

[Murray]

The one armed man did it!!

[korimako1]

The one armed man did it!!

yeah he did do it, based on Sam Sheppard a doctor who was convicted then found innocent of murdering his wife. (actually a bushy haired man,changed for Tv to one armed man) We laugh and use flippant remarks but there are some serious miscarriages of justice in NZ and not all of them are at the high end of offending either.

[Winston001]

Bloody hell. This will set the cat among the pigeons. The Privy Council have set aside Lundy's murder convictions which means a new trial. I'm no expert on this case although it has bothered me. New evidential methods raise doubts about evidence at the original trial - so start again.

From the judgement:


"Since the trial a substantial body of evidence from reputable consultants has cast doubt on the methods the Crown had relied on to establish the time of death based of the post mortem examination of the victims," The Privy Council said.

"Furthermore the use of the particular method used to identify the tissue as central nervous system tissue is controversial, both in criminal trials generally, because it is relatively untested in that context and in the particular circumstances of this case, where there is at least reason to doubt the accuracy of the testing given the state of the samples.

"Finally, evidence produced by the appellant suggested the tampering to the computer had an innocent explanation in that it had been caused by a virus that had not been detected by the Crown's witness."

[Hitcher]

This will get social media chattering.

I think that that Lundy did it on balance of probability. I think that the original jury probably did too.

This is one occasion where the cost of "justice" should probably be weighed against the risk of the accused reoffending. Do we, the taxpayers, really want to pay the cost of a retrial? It won't be cheap.

[Drew]

I hadn't thought of it that way Brett.

I think he did it, and I would love to think that justice will always be served. But I like to think I'm quite pragmatic too, in ordinary life, so I'm a tad torn.

[awa355]

How much time has he served to date? Must have done the mandatory 10 years before his 1st parole hearing. If they retry him and he's found guilty again, I cant see him getting a second life sentence.

[Grumph]

This will get social media chattering.

I think that that Lundy did it on balance of probability. I think that the original jury probably did too.

This is one occasion where the cost of "justice" should probably be weighed against the risk of the accused reoffending. Do we, the taxpayers, really want to pay the cost of a retrial? It won't be cheap.

I think you've got it in a nutshell....I see it's been reported (though not confirmed) that he has cancer.

I'd expect to see the law move even slower than usual.

[Oscar]

This will get social media chattering.

I think that that Lundy did it on balance of probability. I think that the original jury probably did too.

This is one occasion where the cost of "justice" should probably be weighed against the risk of the accused reoffending. Do we, the taxpayers, really want to pay the cost of a retrial? It won't be cheap.

He might well have done it, but this is another case of police bumbling that means it's going to cost the taxpayers either way.
The Police seem to have had a habit of finding the most likely suspect and re-arranging the case to suit (going all the way back to the Crewes).

[Banditbandit]

This will get social media chattering.

I think that that Lundy did it on balance of probability. I think that the original jury probably did too.

This is one occasion where the cost of "justice" should probably be weighed against the risk of the accused reoffending. Do we, the taxpayers, really want to pay the cost of a retrial? It won't be cheap.

Unfortunately, the balance of probability is not good enough for a murder conviction - or any sort of conviction ...

Yes, we will have to pay .. but what price is justice?


How much time has he served to date? Must have done the mandatory 10 years before his 1st parole hearing. If they retry him and he's found guilty again, I cant see him getting a second life sentence.

He won't get a new sentence - if he's convicted again then time served will count ...

Note he has not been released .. the Privy Council recommended he remain in custody .. which indicates they think he may be guilty - but the retrial needs to happen ... because there are evidential mistakes ... strong enough to matter ... if they truly thought there had been a miscarriage of justice then they would have him released pending a new trial ...

He is well passed the first parole date .. but the board will not release him if he continues to claim he is innocent .. one of the requirements of parole is that you take responsibility for your actions, admit guilt and say sorry .. won't happen while people maintain their innocence ..

[Paul in NZ]

He might well have done it, but this is another case of police bumbling that means it's going to cost the taxpayers either way.
The Police seem to have had a habit of finding the most likely suspect and re-arranging the case to suit (going all the way back to the Crewes).

It could well be but I'm not sure. I thought it was more a case of the Police relying on a scientific test that is now discreditied or shown to be not as reliable as once thought. Given that there was so little evidence it raised the spectre of resonable doubt... Its a shitty case to prove though...

[Swoop]

Given that there was so little evidence it raised the spectre of resonable doubt... Its a shitty case to prove though...

It is an(other) interesting case. I will be interested to see what the jury is presented with and the verdict they return.

The N&S article raised quite a few points, especially the time required to do the 300km dash.
The cellphone records are also interesting. I was led to believe, when the case was new, that they backed up the story of the high-speed dash, but it appears they do not.

Hmmm.

[awa355]

I think they have to re try the guy. Otherwise, without a legally proven conviction he will be eligible for compensation for unlawful incarceration.

Either way it is going to cost the public a heap of money.

[Drew]

It is an(other) interesting case. I will be interested to see what the jury is presented with and the verdict they return.

The N&S article raised quite a few points, especially the time required to do the 300km dash.
The cellphone records are also interesting. I was led to believe, when the case was new, that they backed up the story of the high-speed dash, but it appears they do not.

Hmmm.This has been well discussed. The high speed dash theory was not the cops first or best thinking. But since the pathologist was a retard and made up his own sniff test to give time of death, (as well as ignore normal and proven methods), the cops had to try and make the mad dash the most likely.

That right there is the crux of the issue. The silly old cow that fingered Lundy running past her in drag, should be ignored by all I think.

Does anyone know, do the police have to present the same case again? They'll lose if they do. I know that changing the prosecution is an admission of being wrong the first time an' all that, but fuck, do they want the guy let out over pride?

[Oscar]

I think they have to re try the guy. Otherwise, without a legally proven conviction he will be eligible for compensation for unlawful incarceration.

Either way it is going to cost the public a heap of money.


This has been well discussed. The high speed dash theory was not the cops first or best thinking. But since the pathologist was a retard and made up his own sniff test to give time of death, (as well as ignore normal and proven methods), the cops had to try and make the mad dash the most likely.

That right there is the crux of the issue. The silly old cow that fingered Lundy running past her in drag, should be ignored by all I think.

Does anyone know, do the police have to present the same case again? They'll lose if they do. I know that changing the prosecution is an admission of being wrong the first time an' all that, but fuck, do they want the guy let out over pride?

And there's the problem.
Take out the "eye witness", the "brain matter", and the Petone Grand Prix, the Police don't have a case.
If they come up with new evidence (which they are allowed to do), it would have to be pretty good to get a conviction.

[Jantar]

I think that that Lundy did it on balance of probability. I think that the original jury probably did too.....


Unfortunately, the balance of probability is not good enough for a murder conviction - or any sort of conviction ........

This sums up my own feelings. On the balance of probability I also believe he is guilty, but on the evidence presented by the media I feel that there is suffient doubt that, had I been on the Jury, I would have had to vote Not Guilty.

Its a pity that we don't have the old Scottish verdict of Not Proven available here in New Zealand. That would mean that he remains under suspicion until either the police find new evidence to hold a new trial, or until the defence can prove innocence and apply to the court for a not guilty verdict.

[Maha]

This has been well discussed. The high speed dash theory was not the cops first or best thinking. But since the pathologist was a retard and made up his own sniff test to give time of death, (as well as ignore normal and proven methods), the cops had to try and make the mad dash the most likely.

That right there is the crux of the issue. The silly old cow that fingered Lundy running past her in drag, should be ignored by all I think.

Does anyone know, do the police have to present the same case again? They'll lose if they do. I know that changing the prosecution is an admission of being wrong the first time an' all that, but fuck, do they want the guy let out over pride?

Retrial means try again, have another go.. produce more/new evidence. Evidence that may/or may not go against the accused, forensic science has moved along in the years since Lundy was first convicted.

[Murray]

Take out the "eye witness", the "brain matter"

Should never have been there in the first place - she said he was wearing a tie under his overalls - brain tissue found on a Tee shirt - who wears a tie with a Tee shirt?? She was a fruitloop.

The time of death is the crucial point and by all accounts other than the doctor it points to a much later time than the police put forward!

[korimako1]

Unfortunately, the balance of probability is not good enough for a murder conviction - or any sort of conviction ...

Yes, we will have to pay .. but what price is justice?



He won't get a new sentence - if he's convicted again then time served will count ...

Note he has not been released .. the Privy Council recommended he remain in custody .. which indicates they think he may be guilty - but the retrial needs to happen ... because there are evidential mistakes ... strong enough to matter ... if they truly thought there had been a miscarriage of justice then they would have him released pending a new trial ...

He is well passed the first parole date .. but the board will not release him if he continues to claim he is innocent .. one of the requirements of parole is that you take responsibility for your actions, admit guilt and say sorry .. won't happen while people maintain their innocence ..

he will remain in custody pending a bail application, the presidence has been set by releasing Bain on bail. he also had a 20 year non parole so he has not met any review dates.

[oldrider]

Who benefits? ... Surely he had the motive and the most to gain if he was successful! ... His seriously bad (over) acting sealed it for me!

Who else would be motivated that much to kill (with an axe) a harmless fat lady and an innocent young child?

[Maha]

When he is found guilty for a second time (ok the human tissue found on his shirt could have come from the leper he had just rooted in Wellington earlier) will he still persist with that 'damn almost got away with it' look on his face?

[Oscar]

Who benefits? ... Surely he had the motive and the most to gain if he was successful! ... His seriously bad (over) acting sealed it for me!

Who else would be motivated that much to kill (with an axe) a harmless fat lady and an innocent young child?

So you have motivation and a shifty look, but nothing in the way of credible eye witnesses or physical evidence.
Kinda rough justice, no?

[Madness]

Who else would be motivated that much to kill (with an axe) a harmless fat lady and an innocent young child?

Robin Bain?

[oldrider]

David Bain?
Corrected that for you!

[Banditbandit]

Scott Watson?

Or maybe ...

[Madness]

Or maybe ...

Surely not Tamahere!

[duckonin]

All but Watson are guilty. :yawn: Watson is the one I believe did not commit a crime.

[Erelyes]

And there's the problem.
Take out the "eye witness", the "brain matter", and the Petone Grand Prix, the Police don't have a case.
If they come up with new evidence (which they are allowed to do), it would have to be pretty good to get a conviction.

And we'll have the issue of compensation passed around the media circus after the not guilty.

Would be a tad easier if we did have Not Proven in this blimmin country. If the retrial = 'not guilty', ya get compo, if the retrial = 'not proven', ya don't. Save some fucking about.

Of course, somehow we have to make, I mean find, jobs for all the kids that go and buy a law degree.

[Hitcher]

"Not proven" wasn't an issue in this case. The jury unanimously determined Lundy's guilt within a few hours of deliberation.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Do we, the taxpayers, really want to pay the cost of a retrial? It won't be cheap.

I pay for a shit ton of things as a taxpayer that we shouldnt be funding. Like our PM's trips to gallivant on the world stage, or my rates paid recently for a woman to go and look at sandcastles in California (true story).

Given that administration of a justice system is kind of a core part of our society, then absolutely we need to run it again.

My personal view (thanks for asking) is that he did it but that the TOD and thus pleece case was compromised. But juries go "Oh yup: blu blockers? Put him away" - and rightly.

If a more accurate TOD can be ascertained (big if: they've been in the ground 12 years odd) then we'll see how it goes.

No one has mentioned John Barlow either. He's out now I think?

[HenryDorsetCase]

And we'll have the issue of compensation passed around the media circus after the not guilty.

Would be a tad easier if we did have Not Proven in this blimmin country. If the retrial = 'not guilty', ya get compo, if the retrial = 'not proven', ya don't. Save some fucking about.

Of course, somehow we have to make, I mean find, jobs for all the kids that go and buy a law degree.

the not proven verdict is from Scots law, which is based on Roman law, not common (English) law. it will never come here unless on a statutory basis - and why would it? its hard enough to get BRD or BOP thru to a jury.

On the whole I am comfortable with the status quo re compensation. And the higher the hurdle is set for Bain the happier I am, convinced as I am that he did it. Even if the Nazionals are being toooootal pricks about it I sort of admire it, even though I hate them. Crusher collins can kiss my arse.

[JimO]

Surely not Tamahere!
a big part of the case with Tamahere was the watch that they said he stole from Urban Hoglan, the same watch his skeleton was wearing when found several years later

[awa355]

So you have motivation and a shifty look, but nothing in the way of credible eye witnesses or physical evidence.
Kinda rough justice, no?

Everybody knows that criminals have beady little eyes. I learnt that as a kid reading Famous Five books.
Lundy has beady little eyes, He's guilty, :(

[Erelyes]

"Not proven" wasn't an issue in this case. The jury unanimously determined Lundy's guilt within a few hours of deliberation.

Er, I meant the retrial. Hence why I said 'if the retrial'...

[pete376403]

Who benefits? ... Surely he had the motive and the most to gain if he was successful! ... His seriously bad (over) acting sealed it for me!

Who else would be motivated that much to kill (with an axe) a harmless fat lady and an innocent young child?

What do you claim is the motive? Money?
quote "The motive alleged was that Mark was in serious financial trouble, and murdered his wife for the insurance money.

In actual fact,
•
When the company Marchris Enterprises was wound up, there was sufficient money to pay all creditors, with some debtors uncollected.
•
The Salu Vino project had investor's money secured in a trust account without any deductions.
•
The land he was trying to purchase for the vineyard project fell through without him being committed for the $2,000,000 purchase at Maraekakaho in Hawkes Bay.
•
The insurance policy increase was not at Mark's request, and nor was he the person that instigated any claim on the policy."

LundyTruth.com

[korimako1]

Everybody knows that criminals have beady little eyes. I learnt that as a kid reading Famous Five books.
Lundy has beady little eyes, He's guilty, :(

You can read?

[oldrider]

What do you claim is the motive? Money?
quote "The motive alleged was that Mark was in serious financial trouble, and murdered his wife for the insurance money.

In actual fact,
•
When the company Marchris Enterprises was wound up, there was sufficient money to pay all creditors, with some debtors uncollected.
•
The Salu Vino project had investor's money secured in a trust account without any deductions.
•
The land he was trying to purchase for the vineyard project fell through without him being committed for the $2,000,000 purchase at Maraekakaho in Hawkes Bay.
•
The insurance policy increase was not at Mark's request, and nor was he the person that instigated any claim on the policy."

LundyTruth.com

Well, when you put it that way maybe his bad acting could have been "sincere" but that is not the way the media presented his case back in the day! :oi-grr:

Bad KB habit ... never let the facts get in the way of opinions ... it will be interesting ... expensive but interesting! :yes:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think Mark Lundy should become Joseph Parkers punching bag.

[BuzzardNZ]

I think Mark Lundy should become Joseph Parkers punching bag.

Would be one for the books if Lundy wasted him. 12 years in the clink has probably hardened him up no end.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Would be one for the books if Lundy wasted him. 12 years in the clink has probably hardened him up no end.

As if. The fat cunt would poo his pants at the mere thought.

[oldrider]

NZ Police homicide investigations should be outsourced offshore ... their propensity for fuck ups is just getting too expensive! :sherlock:

The majority get outsourced to the privy council and turned over eventually anyway, so lets just do it up front! :yes:

[Swoop]

NZ Police homicide investigations should be outsourced offshore ... their propensity for fuck ups is just getting too expensive! :sherlock:

The majority get outsourced to the privy council and turned over eventually anyway, so lets just do it up front! :yes:
Quite honestly, the fuck-ups should come out of the operating budget.
Ineptitude appears to breed more incompetence.

[2smokes]

Would be one for the books if Lundy wasted him. 12 years in the clink has probably hardened him up no end.

12 years as the mummy! I bet you could drive a bus up his pooper now.

[HenryDorsetCase]

NZ Police homicide investigations should be outsourced offshore ... their propensity for fuck ups is just getting too expensive! :sherlock:

The majority get outsourced to the privy council and turned over eventually anyway, so lets just do it up front! :yes:

I am going to google up some stats but honestly you are flat wrong.

In the pleece published stats there are 34, 43 and 47 murders in the year ended June 11, 12 and 13 respectively.

of those, the solving rate is 82, 90 and 91 % So of this years ones 42 or 43 were solved. which is interesting innit: you have a 1 in 10 chance of getting away with it! better odds than lotto.

That does not equate to appeals or whatever but (and I cant find stats for it) if you are murdered the most likely person to have done it is your significant other, or a family member, or if you are a criminal scumbag (and a lot are) then by the persons in whose circles you move.. Random stranger ones are almost unheard of.

These few cases (Lundy, (did it) Bain (did it) Watson (did it) etc all share a number of characteristics to my untrained eye: middle class white people involved..... protestations of innocence..... attractive victims. Skeevy details

so they get allll the publicity but statistically they are a tiny minority.

http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/crime-stats-national-20130630.pdf

stats ^

[oldrider]

I am going to google up some stats but honestly you are flat wrong.

In the pleece published stats there are 34, 43 and 47 murders in the year ended June 11, 12 and 13 respectively.

of those, the solving rate is 82, 90 and 91 % So of this years ones 42 or 43 were solved. which is interesting innit: you have a 1 in 10 chance of getting away with it! better odds than lotto.

That does not equate to appeals or whatever but (and I cant find stats for it) if you are murdered the most likely person to have done it is your significant other, or a family member, or if you are a criminal scumbag (and a lot are) then by the persons in whose circles you move.. Random stranger ones are almost unheard of.

These few cases (Lundy, (did it) Bain (did it) Watson (did it) etc all share a number of characteristics to my untrained eye: middle class white people involved..... protestations of innocence..... attractive victims. Skeevy details

so they get allll the publicity but statistically they are a tiny minority.

http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/crime-stats-national-20130630.pdf

stats ^

Interesting response!

I may be flat wrong as you say but the way these things are reported in our media suggests that the way I called is probably correct!

Should the Privy Counsel be reinstated until the Police (homicide squad & Justice etc) get their act back up to speed? :confused:

Or should the media be prosecuted (like speeding motorists) for misleading journalism? :spanking:

Well something is wrong and needs fixing, .... sooner rather than later! ..... IMHO! :facepalm:

[Owl]

When he is found guilty for a second time

After reading the Privy Council judgement, I can't see that happening.



human tissue

But is it?

I still think he's guilty though.

[Erelyes]

As I understand it per pt. 56 of the Privy Council report (http://www.jcpc.gov.uk/decided-cases/docs/JCPC_2012_0094_Judgment.pdf), some experts can't even be sure it's human tissue. Could be his dinner.

No way he's getting convicted the 2nd time around. And I think he's got a better chance of compo than Bain does.

[Maha]

As I understand it per pt. 56 of the Privy Council report (http://www.jcpc.gov.uk/decided-cases/docs/JCPC_2012_0094_Judgment.pdf), some experts can't even be sure it's human tissue. Could be his dinner.

No way he's getting convicted the 2nd time around. And I think he's got a better chance of compo than Bain does.

That piece of evidence and the time of death (due to stomach content)... are just two out of how many exhibits (that the original jury were shown?) are questionable.
Time of death is not an exact science, it's an educated guess at best.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The fat cunt did it, the police simply fucked up.

[oldrider]

The fat cunt did it, the police simply fucked up.

Or maybe someone else did it for him ... maybe that's why he is so adamant (and confident) that he did not actually do it! :shifty:

Unfortunately the cops never (appear to) look too far beyond the (seemingly) obvious! :facepalm:

[Jantar]

The fat cunt did it, the police simply fucked up.

So what time did he do it?

[Crasherfromwayback]

So what time did he do it?

Certainly not when the police said he did. Maybe after he rooted the hooker in Petone. Neighbours did see lights on much later at night.

For the Lundy supporters. I'd like to hear how he went through a full tank of fuel...you know...the tank he filled in Petone the day of the murders, despite the fact that he says he only visited two clients in Wellington the next day? Please explain? Because I've driven to PN and back from Lower Hutt (basically Petone) in 1 hour and ten minutes each way. But it took me a full tank of fuel in a six cyl Commodore. Mind you...I was towing a trailer with two race bikes on it.

[Edbear]

Certainly not when the police said he did. Maybe after he rooted the hooker in Petone. Neighbours did see lights on much later at night.

For the Lundy supporters. I'd like to hear how he went through a full tank of fuel...you know...the tank he filled in Petone the day of the murders, despite the fact that he says he only visited two clients in Wellington the next day? Please explain? Because I've driven to PN and back from Lower Hutt (basically Petone) in 1 hour and ten minutes each way. But it took me a full tank of fuel in a six cyl Commodore. Mind you...I was towing a trailer with two race bikes on it.

I wouldn't be surprised if he got convicted again, properly this time, IMHO.

[Jantar]

Certainly not when the police said he did. Maybe after he rooted the hooker in Petone. Neighbours did see lights on much later at night......

I would agree. But the police have ruled out a later time of death. They have even said Lundy tampered with the computer clock to make it appear that the computer was switched of around 10:25 pm. Neighbours' evidence that the lights were switched off at around 11:00 was dimissed as being mistaken.

That is why the time of death is so important. Establish that piece of evidence correctly and Luny's alibi is either secure or completely invalidated.

[GDOBSSOR]

Certainly not when the police said he did. Maybe after he rooted the hooker in Petone. Neighbours did see lights on much later at night.

For the Lundy supporters. I'd like to hear how he went through a full tank of fuel...you know...the tank he filled in Petone the day of the murders, despite the fact that he says he only visited two clients in Wellington the next day? Please explain? Because I've driven to PN and back from Lower Hutt (basically Petone) in 1 hour and ten minutes each way. But it took me a full tank of fuel in a six cyl Commodore. Mind you...I was towing a trailer with two race bikes on it.

The car could have been running rich? This investigation has been an utter shambles on so many levels, so it wouldn't surprise me if the cops missed checking something like that. Also - a police reconstruction that was conducted late at night a) of course took longer than Lundy's supposed journey and b) actually used 40 litres more petrol than Mark allegedly used - there is no evidence Mark refuelled anywhere else. As for the neighbour who saw the lights on later that night... he saw the lights on at about 11pm - Lundy was with the hooker about 11.30-midnightish, so Mark wouldn't have switched on the lights.

[Robbo]

Interesting quote from the NZ Herald

"Local real estate agent Sheridan Martin Murphy, 49, was treated as a suspect by police, one of 60 people on that list. He committed suicide at his home in Juliana Place, Palmerston North, on September 4, 2000, just days after the mother and daughter were hacked to death in their Karamea Cres home.

Sources close to the case said there were widespread rumours in Palmerston North that Murphy, a family man and racehorse-owner, was close to Christine. "

I wonder if there is anything in this or maybe Lundy paid this guy to do the deed and his conscience got the better of him.

[Hitcher]

So what time did he do it?

Hammer time.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I would agree. But the police have ruled out a later time of death. They have even said Lundy tampered with the computer clock to make it appear that the computer was switched of around 10:25 pm. Neighbours' evidence that the lights were switched off at around 11:00 was dimissed as being mistaken.

That is why the time of death is so important. Establish that piece of evidence correctly and Luny's alibi is either secure or completely invalidated.

Yeah sounds like they got the time of death wrong as well. Total cluster fuck of a case.

[BuzzardNZ]

I wouldn't be surprised if he got convicted again, properly this time, IMHO.

Here's hoping.

[korimako1]

Interesting quote from the NZ Herald

"Local real estate agent Sheridan Martin Murphy, 49, was treated as a suspect by police, one of 60 people on that list. He committed suicide at his home in Juliana Place, Palmerston North, on September 4, 2000, just days after the mother and daughter were hacked to death in their Karamea Cres home.

Sources close to the case said there were widespread rumours in Palmerston North that Murphy, a family man and racehorse-owner, was close to Christine. "



This is a total nonsense. He may have been on the list because of the timing of his death only. It is a vicious rumour started early in the investigation by probably the police, Christine didnt even know him, at was all designed to pressure and hurt people close to the Murphys, Lundys and Weggerys to illict information and it failed, except the hurt part, and now they are doing it again.

[Robbo]

That would be fairly typical of the Herald, they never let the truth stand in the way of a good story or speculation.

[Edbear]

That would be fairly typical of the Herald, they never let the truth stand in the way of a good story or speculation.

You mean like media in general..? :rolleyes:

[Swoop]

The N&S article mentioned the time of the computer clock and its being "tampered with". The comment was that whoever did this (if anyone actually did) would need to know a little bit about computers to adjust the time in the manner described. A virus would have done this "easily".

Still too much uncertainty around this case.


... if you are murdered the most likely person to have done it is your significant other, or a family member, Random stranger ones are almost unheard of.

...Watson...
I presume Watson is falling into the "random murderer, wandering around bumping people off" category?

[Winston001]

Yeah sounds like they got the time of death wrong as well. Total cluster fuck of a case.

If - and it is still questionable - but if the time of death evidence is unreliable that is not the fault of the police. They correctly relied upon the pathologist. Another pathologist (a professor) later says the examining pathologist was wrong.

We will just have to wait and see at the new trial.

This is a fresh start for the prosecution and they can adduce new evidence and a new case theory.

[Crasherfromwayback]

If - and it is still questionable - but if the time of death evidence is unreliable that is not the fault of the police. They correctly relied upon the pathologist. Another pathologist (a professor) later says the examining pathologist was wrong.

We will just have to wait and see at the new trial.

This is a fresh start for the prosecution and they can adduce new evidence and a new case theory.

I hear ya. But the police tried to convince the jury Lundy drove to PN and back AND slaughtered his wife/child in three hours during rush hour to fit the case. That's a fuckup and not possible. So they should've questioned the pathologist harder, or sought out another expert regarding the time of death.

[Winston001]

Can a new prosecution proceed on the theory that Lundy finished with the prostitute at 11:30pm and then drove to Palmerston North? That gives him plenty of time.

[Banditbandit]

Sure they can .. they can now make up any new story they like ... but they will still need some evidence to support whatever story they make up ...

[avgas]

I had no idea he was pregnant.

Now I feel bad for calling him fat.

[Swoop]

I had no idea he was pregnant.

Now I feel bad for calling him fat.
It is just "big bones".


















* Normally KFC drumsticks' swimming in gravy... with all the extra trimmings.

[oldrider]

A harmless fat chick and an innocent little girl were chopped up with an axe by "somebody" .. lets not forget about them! :mad: . Or the five shot in Dunedin! :facepalm:

[avgas]

A harmless fat chick and an innocent little girl were chopped up with an axe by "somebody" .. lets not forget about them! :mad: . Or the five shot in Dunedin! :facepalm:
How the fuck did Lundy shoot 5 people in Dunedin?

[oneofsix]

A harmless fat chick and an innocent little girl were chopped up with an axe by "somebody" .. lets not forget about them! :mad: . Or the five shot in Dunedin! :facepalm:

Not to mention a farmer and his wife shot and the baby left in the cot, although the baby survived (fed by parties unknown) and requires answers, and then there is the farmer in Feilding. Anyone remember Jennifer Beard, at least no one has been falsely convicted for that one .

[oldrider]

Not to mention a farmer and his wife shot and the baby left in the cot, although the baby survived (fed by parties unknown) and requires answers, and then there is the farmer in Feilding. Anyone remember Jennifer Beard, at least no one has been falsely convicted for that one .

True! The dead victims don't seem to rate as important in this fucking country any more! :mad:

[Paul in NZ]

True! The dead victims don't seem to rate as important in this fucking country any more! :mad:

I don't beleive that - its just that some crimes are bloody hard to prove...

[Murray]

Because I've driven to PN and back from Lower Hutt (basically Petone) in 1 hour and ten minutes each way. .I was towing a trailer with two race bikes on it.


Petone - Palmerston North 142 km - 1 hour 10 minutes - AVERAGE speed 121 kms per hour

Your dreaming!!! What speed were you doing through Otaki, Waikanae, Paraparumu, Paekok, Plimmerton?? Or did you take a faster route (while towing your trailor and bikes)

[Crasherfromwayback]

Petone - Palmerston North 142 km - 1 hour 10 minutes - AVERAGE speed 121 kms per hour

Your dreaming!!! What speed were you doing through Otaki, Waikanae, Paraparumu, Paekok, Plimmerton?? Or did you take a faster route (while towing your trailor and bikes)

Lower Hutt actually (as mentioned). Had to hit speeds of around 180 kph quite often...mostly around 160kph on the open road. Did mostly 80-120 kph everywhere. Was done at around 6.30am Sunday morning, and yes I had someone else with me. But you're telling the stories eh! Funnily enough I've had people say I'm dreaming to say I've done min 19 laps round Manfield on an 883 Harley, or min 16's on a 250 proddie bike back in 1991 on street legal (as in no slicks) tyres. Same thing though. They weren't actually there. Cause if you were...you'd know it all to be true.

[oldrider]

There's more than one or two ways from Petone to Palmerston North, how many did they check? :confused:

[korimako1]

Lower Hutt actually (as mentioned). Had to hit speeds of around 180 kph quite often...mostly around 160kph on the open road. Did mostly 80-120 kph everywhere. Was done at around 6.30am Sunday morning, and yes I had someone else with me. But you're telling the stories eh! Funnily enough I've had people say I'm dreaming to say I've done min 19 laps round Manfield on an 883 Harley, or min 16's on a 250 proddie bike back in 1991 on street legal (as in no slicks) tyres. Same thing though. They weren't actually there. Cause if you were...you'd know it all to be true.

Well sport you are a legend, the cops should have got you to do all their tests, then maybe they would have had something to play with, Nah. oh yes one small point 6.30am Sunday compared to rush hour traffic, get your watch checked ya dreamer

[korimako1]

There's more than one or two ways from Petone to Palmerston North, how many did they check? :confused:

all of them, each and every possible way and still they could not achieve what they claimed ML had done and the jury swallowed it, and why, because of dodgy shirt evidence and non-disclosure by Police.

[Murray]

Because I've driven to PN and back from Lower Hutt (basically Petone) in 1 hour and ten minutes each way


Lower Hutt actually (as mentioned).Was done at around 6.30am Sunday morning,

And when do you do the return trip??

And distance from Petone to Lower Hutt would be less than the distance from entering PN to the address of the Lundies. Are you sure your timings not from when you departed Lower Hutt (ie on the motorway) to when you arrived at the outskirts (Pioneer Highway)???

[Drew]

Well sport you are a legend, the cops should have got you to do all their tests, then maybe they would have had something to play with, Nah. oh yes one small point 6.30am Sunday compared to rush hour traffic, get your watch checked ya dreamerPete was quite clear that it couldn't be done at the time of day that Lundy was supposed to have done it.

It is well possible to do it in 1h10m with little traffic though. Consider that it can be done sub 1 hour without any bother at all on a gixxer thou, without ever going over 200kph, and Pete has a history of fairly fast cars.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Well sport you are a legend, the cops should have got you to do all their tests, then maybe they would have had something to play with, Nah. oh yes one small point 6.30am Sunday compared to rush hour traffic, get your watch checked ya dreamer

Well cockface...if you can read (which I'm doubting)...you'll note I've said it's fucking IMPOSSIBLE for Lundy to have done it when the police say he did. Hence why I mentioned it was actually 6.30am when I managed it.


And when do you do the return trip??

And distance from Petone to Lower Hutt would be less than the distance from entering PN to the address of the Lundies. Are you sure your timings not from when you departed Lower Hutt (ie on the motorway) to when you arrived at the outskirts (Pioneer Highway)???

About 1.30 in the morning. And it was from Avalon, right by the Kennedy Good Bridge. So a bit of a headstart from Petone for sure.

[Murray]

For the Lundy supporters. I'd like to hear how he went through a full tank of fuel...you know...the tank he filled in Petone the day of the murders, despite the fact that he says he only visited two clients in Wellington the next day? Please explain?

MISSING PETROL

North & South correctly state that Lundy had used about 58 liters since filling up the day before. He was known to have driven approx. 65km in and around the Hutt valley and Wellington city, and then 150km in his very fast drive home on August 30 th, that is 215km in total. This works out to be a fuel consumption of 27 liters per 100km which seems high. However, the police checked with a Ford Technical Service Engineer as early as September 6 th and he is recorded as saying “it would be possible for this type of vehicle to use approx. 58 liters of petrol if the vehicle was to travel between 50 and 100km around town at speeds of up to 50km/hr and then 150-170km at speeds averaging 140km/hr”.

So, there is no “missing petrol” at all. This Ford engineer was not called as a Crown witness, for obvious reasons, and the jury did not get to hear about his opinion.

The police had admitted to using 17.32 liters of petrol per 100km on one of their “reconstructions”, which they deny making. Lundy allegedly drove faster than they did (more fuel) but just taking the police figure, Lundy was short of 30 - 40 liters of petrol if he was to have driven at speed over 300km to commit the murders and return. The jury never got to hear any of this. They only heard about “missing petrol” and a vain attempt to explain it via siphoning. We agree with North & South that it is simply not good enough for the police to say that there is no evidence that Lundy didn’t buy petrol. In fact it is extraordinary. They must produce evidence that he did. That’s how the Justice System has to work.

Does that explain it????

[Crasherfromwayback]

MISSING PETROL

North & South correctly state that Lundy had used about 58 liters since filling up the day before. He was known to have driven approx. 65km in and around the Hutt valley and Wellington city, and then 150km in his very fast drive home on August 30 th, that is 215km in total. This works out to be a fuel consumption of 27 liters per 100km which seems high. However, the police checked with a Ford Technical Service Engineer as early as September 6 th and he is recorded as saying “it would be possible for this type of vehicle to use approx. 58 liters of petrol if the vehicle was to travel between 50 and 100km around town at speeds of up to 50km/hr and then 150-170km at speeds averaging 140km/hr”.

So, there is no “missing petrol” at all. This Ford engineer was not called as a Crown witness, for obvious reasons, and the jury did not get to hear about his opinion.

The police had admitted to using 17.32 liters of petrol per 100km on one of their “reconstructions”, which they deny making. Lundy allegedly drove faster than they did (more fuel) but just taking the police figure, Lundy was short of 30 - 40 liters of petrol if he was to have driven at speed over 300km to commit the murders and return. The jury never got to hear any of this. They only heard about “missing petrol” and a vain attempt to explain it via siphoning. We agree with North & South that it is simply not good enough for the police to say that there is no evidence that Lundy didn’t buy petrol. In fact it is extraordinary. They must produce evidence that he did. That’s how the Justice System has to work.

Does that explain it????

Yep. Cheers for that.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Can actually be done in five hours flat.

288575

[unstuck]

Can actually be done in five hours flat.



Vids or it never happened.:shifty::corn:

I reckon it could be done in 4 1/2 with a bit of effort.:whistle:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Vids or it never happened.:shifty::corn:

I reckon it could be done in 4 1/2 with a bit of effort.:whistle:

Lol. Wouldn't want the wrong people getting those vids. But my mother lives in Gissy, and it's a trip I make often. Christmas Day was the fastest one I've made, although when my father was about to die suddenly a couple of years ago I got there pretty fucking quickly too. You'd need a motorcycle to get there any faster than 5 flat I feel. I used a 7 series BMW, a super charged XJR Jag, and when dad was dying, a 5.7L SS ute. All good weapons of choice for long fast drives.

[avgas]

Hasn't this subject been hacked to death already?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hasn't this subject been hacked to death already?

Lol. Scuse the pun an all...

[Maha]

Lol. Scuse the pun an all...

Avgas is cleaver like that (pun intended)

[Erelyes]

Avgas is cleaver like that (pun intended)

I think when you add a letter it's fairly obvious you intend the pun.

[Jantar]

MISSING PETROL

North & South correctly state that Lundy had used about 58 liters since filling up the day before. He was known to have driven approx. 65km in and around the Hutt valley and Wellington city, and then 150km in his very fast drive home on August 30 th, that is 215km in total. ....

No it doesn't. That 150 km is each way, so 58 liters in about 365 km.

[c4.]

I think when you add a letter it's fairly oblivious you intend the pun.

Fixed that for ya

[Banditbandit]

Puns ... more puns ... chop chop !!!

[korimako1]

No it doesn't. That 150 km is each way, so 58 liters in about 365 km.

Read what was said in North and South this trip was on the 30th the morning of the discovery. only back to Pnth then the car was seized by Police.

[avgas]

Puns ... more puns ... chop chop !!!
Just for you. Family Reunion.
288614

[Jantar]

Read what was said in North and South this trip was on the 30th the morning of the discovery. only back to Pnth then the car was seized by Police.

Yes, I forgot that he went back to P. North before the car was siezed. So that makes it either 515 km for 58 litres, or he didn't drive to P. north the night before and commit any murders.

[korimako1]

Yes, I forgot that he went back to P. North before the car was siezed. So that makes it either 515 km for 58 litres, or he didn't drive to P. north the night before and commit any murders.

correct, he didnt do it

[oldrider]

correct, he didnt do it

You could only claim that if you knew who did ... is there something you want to tell us? :mellow:

[korimako1]

Well cockface...if you can read (which I'm doubting)...you'll note I've said it's fucking IMPOSSIBLE for Lundy to have done it when the police say he did. Hence why I mentioned it was actually 6.30am when I managed it.



About 1.30 in the morning. And it was from Avalon, right by the Kennedy Good Bridge. So a bit of a headstart from Petone for sure.

that was in an earlier thread that I have just found, the one I replied to had no such conitation and implied that because you can do it in the speed refered to ML can as well, which we all know is B/S, you also dont say what side of PNth you left from.

[Banditbandit]

If the time of death is not what the cops claim it to be (and the pathologist is probably wrong about it) then whether anyone can make the trip at the speed required becomes totally irrelevent ...

[Crasherfromwayback]

correct, he didnt do it


that was in an earlier thread that I have just found, the one I replied to had no such conitation and implied that because you can do it in the speed refered to ML can as well, which we all know is B/S, you also dont say what side of PNth you left from.

I can at least back up the claims I make. And I don't tend to rush in and call people dreamers and full of shit until I know them to be.

[korimako1]

I can at least back up the claims I make. And I don't tend to rush in and call people dreamers and full of shit until I know them to be.

I dont think you can, you still havent stated where you timed yourself too in Pnth. and i didnt say you were full of shit, just a dreamer.

[korimako1]

You could only claim that if you knew who did ... is there something you want to tell us? :mellow:

not really, but read the privy councils decision, its an eye opener. the moment they found out about the non disclosure by police it was a done deal. now you watch the cops make up all the excuses for that

[Banditbandit]

not really, but read the privy councils decision, its an eye opener. the moment they found out about the non disclosure by police it was a done deal. now you watch the cops make up all the excuses for that

Just means the cops and the prosecution stuffed up .. that doesn't mean that Mark Lundy did not murder his wife and daughter.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I dont think you can, you still havent stated where you timed yourself too in Pnth. and i didnt say you were full of shit, just a dreamer.

And I don't give a shit what you think I can and can't do. And a dreamer I may be...but I'm a dreamer that's driven to PN in an hour and ten minutes. For the record...it was from 44 Frederick St Avalon to the front of Anza Motorcycles.
Top speed of the Commodore with the trailer in tow was around 185kph, and I paid very little respect to the speed limit through the towns either. It's how we drove back in the day. Next time I take a drive to Gisborne you'd be welcome to tag along for the ride if you'd like a sample. You can see first hand what a dreamer I am. Talking of dreamers...tell us all how you know for a FACT that Lundy didn't murder his wife and child?

[BuzzardNZ]

Next time I take a drive to Gisborne you'd be welcome to tag along for the ride if you'd like a sample.

Sounds like a date :love:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Sounds like a date :love:

Lol. And sorry mate. Can't do a threesome right now. The ute only seats two.<_<

[Maha]

Lol. And sorry mate. Can't do a threesome right now. The ute only seats two.<_<

My old Ford had a bench seat....:eek:

[Crasherfromwayback]

My old Ford had a bench seat....:eek:

As did all of my old utes. An HX, an HZ and three WB's. But I wanted an SS this time. Only room for two! But it's the best vehicle I've owned, and I've had a few! PN in an hour ten would be a piece of piss if no one was looking.

[BuzzardNZ]

As did all of my old utes. An HX, an HZ and three WB's. But I wanted an SS this time. Only room for two! But it's the best vehicle I've owned, and I've had a few! PN in an hour ten would be a piece of piss if no one was looking.

Dreamer ;) You need mad crazy driving skills to do that. Mark Lundy you ain't Pete.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Mark Lundy you ain't Pete.

I know. I fuck chicks with my knob not an axe.

[BuzzardNZ]

I know. I fuck chicks with my knob not an axe.

Plus your coffee is way more deadly than even the sharpest axe ( should you ever need it )

[Maha]

I know. I fuck chicks with my knob not an axe.

....but they say it's shaped like a splitter...:sweatdrop

[oldrider]

....but they say it's shaped like a splitter...:sweatdrop

Should give him an edge at least! :rolleyes:

[Crasherfromwayback]

....but they say it's shaped like a splitter...:sweatdrop


Should give him an edge at least! :rolleyes:

If a round peg fits a round hole, and a square peg fits a square hole...why shouldn't ya knob be shaped like an axe?

[BuzzardNZ]

If a round peg fits a round hole, and a square peg fits a square hole...why shouldn't ya knob be shaped like an axe?

can't fault your logic there mate!

[Robbo]

If a round peg fits a round hole, and a square peg fits a square hole...why shouldn't ya knob be shaped like an axe?

Bloody classic Pete.:killingme

[98tls]

As did all of my old utes. An HX, an HZ and three WB's. But I wanted an SS this time. Only room for two! But it's the best vehicle I've owned, and I've had a few! PN in an hour ten would be a piece of piss if no one was looking.

Utes are great eh have had an XW,XY,XD with 351,BA XR6 and my current BA XR8 my only complaint with the newer ones is i would love to have a bench seat.Mate of mine has a nice 50th ann SS,really is a standout vehicle with just the right mods...anyway:nono:off topic a bit.

[avgas]

If a round peg fits a round hole, and a square peg fits a square hole...why shouldn't ya knob be shaped like an axe?
Freshly sliced Labia.
Breakfast of murderers.

[oldrider]

I think I am now beginning to agree with the finding of the Privy Counsel, NZ has brought the cost of this one upon ourselves! :facepalm:

We must look bloody pathetic as a country from the outside world ... can't we do any better than this? ... FFS! :o

[Banditbandit]

I think I am now beginning to agree with the finding of the Privy Counsel, NZ has brought the cost of this one upon ourselves! :facepalm:

We must look bloody pathetic as a country from the outside world ... can't we do any better than this? ... FFS! :o


Jeez mate ... by world standards we have one of the better justice systems .... they are not judging us - they are envious ...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Jeez mate ... by world standards we have one of the better justice systems .... they are not judging us - they are envious ...

And they get how many wrong out of thousands? Admittedly some pretty fucking major ones over the years...but hey...no system is perfect.

[Maha]

Lundy's house was at the eastern end of Palmmy 147kms from Petone. How long was time frame they say he had to drive there/commit the murders and drive back again? Three hours. A 294km round trip.
His average speed would had to have been 100kph without stopping to kill two people.
Add in a reasonable amount of time to commit the murders 20-25 mins? and his average speed increases to around 120kph. That's an unrealistic average speed for SH1 (taking into account traffic lights etc) and keeping at those speeds undetected.

https://maps.google.co.nz/maps?saddr=Petone,+Lower+Hutt,+Wellington&daddr=Karamea+Crescent,+Palmerston+North&hl=en&sll=-36.742572,174.856537&sspn=3.468387,8.453979&geocode=FeLsiv0d7ohsCimrvu9Nvqs4bTFA96JDYe8ABQ%3BF ZmjmP0dwQt4CikDEN7RdLNBbTF17wlAYwkkpg&oq=Petone&mra=ls&t=m&z=9

[Katman]

Lundy's house was at the eastern end of Palmmy 147kms from Petone. How long was time frame they say he had to drive there/commit the murders and drive back again? Three hours. A 294km round trip.
His average speed would had to have been 100kph without stopping to kill two people.
Add in a reasonable amount of time to commit the murders 20-25 mins? and his average speed increases to around 120kph. That's an unrealistic average speed for SH1 (taking into account traffic lights etc) and keeping at those speeds undetected.


Wow, you should be a detective.

[Maha]

Wow, you should be a detective.

Point missed was (for the non detectives here :msn-wink:) that alone would have cast doubt in my mind as a Juror.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Lundy's house was at the eastern end of Palmmy 147kms from Petone. How long was time frame they say he had to drive there/commit the murders and drive back again? Three hours. A 294km round trip.
His average speed would had to have been 100kph without stopping to kill two people.
Add in a reasonable amount of time to commit the murders 20-25 mins? and his average speed increases to around 120kph. That's an unrealistic average speed for SH1 (taking into account traffic lights etc) and keeping at those speeds undetected.

]

Prob being...it's only an issue because the police may well have the time of death wrong, due to the pathologist getting it wrong. The fat cunt could drive up and back as slowly as he liked if he did it at a diff time.

[Maha]

Prob being...it's only an issue because the police may well have the time of death wrong, due to the pathologist getting it wrong. The fat cunt could drive up and back as slowly as he liked if he did it at a diff time.

True...however, Lundy's cellphone records show that he was in Petone at 5:43 pm and at 8:48 pm. Given that as being 'true and accurate' the time of death would had to have been within those times, would you agree?...for Lundy to have committed the murders.?

[Crasherfromwayback]

True...however, Lundy's cellphone records show that he was in Petone at 5:43 pm and at 8:48 pm. Given that as being 'true and accurate' the time of death would had to have been within those times, would you agree?...for Lundy to have committed the murders.?

No. Who says he didn't do it after rooting the hooker in Petone?

[Murray]

True...however, Lundy's cellphone records show that he was in Petone at 5:43 pm and at 8:48 pm. Given that as being 'true and accurate' the time of death would had to have been within those times, would you agree?...for Lundy to have committed the murders.?

Point being - what if he committed the murders at 3 am in the morning - after all the lights were switched off sometime round 10ish - Its still possible he did it but as I stated a wee way back the police have cocked up big time giving the time frame they put forward - its going to be impossible to find him guilty again using the same case

[Banditbandit]

True...however, Lundy's cellphone records show that he was in Petone at 5:43 pm and at 8:48 pm. Given that as being 'true and accurate' the time of death would had to have been within those times, would you agree?...for Lundy to have committed the murders.?

No - the records show his Cellphone was in Petone at those times .. Lundy is not his cellphone ...

Maybe he did it well before or well after those times ...

[Maha]

No. Who says he didn't do it after rooting the hooker in Petone?


Point being - what if he committed the murders at 3 am in the morning - after all the lights were switched off sometime round 10ish - Its still possible he did it but as I stated a wee way back the police have cocked up big time giving the time frame they put forward - its going to be impossible to find him guilty again using the same case


No - the records show his Cellphone was in Petone at those times .. Lundy is not his cellphone ...

Maybe he did it well before or well after those times ...

I agree with all of that, and personally believe he did kill his wife and daughter ... but he was found guilty by a Jury that believed the time of death and the travel time as what happened.
If a retrial is to take place, how will the prosecution change those two pervious ''facts''?

[Banditbandit]

Lundy's house was at the eastern end of Palmmy 147kms from Petone. How long was time frame they say he had to drive there/commit the murders and drive back again? Three hours. A 294km round trip.
His average speed would had to have been 100kph without stopping to kill two people.
Add in a reasonable amount of time to commit the murders 20-25 mins? and his average speed increases to around 120kph. That's an unrealistic average speed for SH1 (taking into account traffic lights etc) and keeping at those speeds undetected.

https://maps.google.co.nz/maps?saddr=Petone,+Lower+Hutt,+Wellington&daddr=Karamea+Crescent,+Palmerston+North&hl=en&sll=-36.742572,174.856537&sspn=3.468387,8.453979&geocode=FeLsiv0d7ohsCimrvu9Nvqs4bTFA96JDYe8ABQ%3BF ZmjmP0dwQt4CikDEN7RdLNBbTF17wlAYwkkpg&oq=Petone&mra=ls&t=m&z=9

No - the time of death is cocked up so the high speed drive is probably not required.

However, if I was trying it I would not use State Highway one until well north - Probably Plimmerton ... from Petone go over Haywards Hill and round the harbour ... then to P/North ... (Maybe even use the Paekakariki Hill to avoid traffic)

Or Petone over the 'takas to the Wairarapa, then over the Pahiatua Track ...

At night those two may well be quicker routes ... but it's a long time since I've seriously lived there so I could well be wrong ...

[Banditbandit]

I agree with all of that, and personally believe he did kill his wife and daughter ... but he was found guilty by a Jury that believed the time of death and the travel time as what happened.
If a retrial is to take place, how will the prosecution change those two pervious ''facts''?

They can change whatever they like - the "fact" is that the time of death is hugely questionable - that was part of the case to the Privy Council - and if that is so, then the high speed drive is not required.

New evidence measn they can have a whole new story .. no issue.

[oldrider]

Jeez mate ... by world standards we have one of the better justice systems .... they are not judging us - they are envious ...

Well the Privy Council don't seem to agree with you on that ... then again they are poms and they get some funny attitudes at times! :mellow:

[Jantar]

Prob being...it's only an issue because the police may well have the time of death wrong, due to the pathologist getting it wrong. The fat cunt could drive up and back as slowly as he liked if he did it at a diff time.

+1

Right from the very first trial it appeared obvious that the time of death was incorrect. This probable incorrect ToD was raised by the defence and police stuck by their incorrect estimate. On that basis alone Lundy should have been aquitted.

Now lets see the police come up with a more accurate ToD and show that Lundy, and no-one else, had means motive and opportunity. If they can show that the car was not at motel, between midnight and 5:00 am for example, then he will be found guilty once again.

[Banditbandit]

Well the Privy Council don't seem to agree with you on that ... then again they are poms and they get some funny attitudes at times! :mellow:

The Privy Council is not the whole world - just a bunch of British-derived aristocrats !!!

[Maha]

No - the time of death is cocked up so the high speed drive is probably not required.

However, if I was trying it I would not use State Highway one until well north - Probably Plimmerton ... from Petone go over Haywards Hill and round the harbour ... then to P/North ... (Maybe even use the Paekakariki Hill to avoid traffic)

Or Petone over the 'takas to the Wairarapa, then over the Pahiatua Track ...

At night those two may well be quicker routes ... but it's a long time since I've seriously lived there so I could well be wrong ...

Or Petone over the 'takas to the Wairarapa, then over the Pahiatua Track ... Even longer that way @ 194kms one way.
A later time of death would not help the Lundy camp (there was a light seen on at the house around 11pm the night of the murders) but it was not on the next morning. Giving credence to Murrays scenario.

[oldrider]

What's the state of the Akatarawa road these days, still gravel or is it sealed now, in good condition at night could it be quick? :confused:

[pete376403]

What's the state of the Akatarawa road these days, still gravel or is it sealed now, in good condition at night could it be quick? :confused:

Akas is a skinny little sealed road, narrower than most peoples driveways. Lovely bike road, tight corners, few straight bits.

Not the ideal track for a high speed dash in a large car. At night you'd have the advantage of being able to see other cars lights a long way off so you could use the whole road, but whether that would offset the other disadvantages is doubtful. It nly gets you as far as Waikanae, still got to get to (at least) just before Levin before you could get off the main road. Plenty of opportunity to be observed, especially if going for it.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The Privy Council is not the whole world - just a bunch of British-derived aristocrats !!!

The Lor Lords are not aristos, they are appointed to the PC because they are the senior judges of the dominions. Robin Cooke (thats Lord Cooke of Thorndon to you, you oik) was a Lor Lord. As I think was Ted Thomas.

[Katman]

If the time of death cannot be ascertained then the police will have no case.

You can't just say "he did it, but we don't know when".

The time of death was supposedly determined by the contents of the victims stomachs.

While the pathologist's initial determination may have been wrong, he can't have been wrong by 6 or so hours.

[oldrider]

So many men, so many opinions, some challenge the facts. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11138804

Is NZ a haven for champions of the oppressed? :shifty:

[HenryDorsetCase]

So many men, so many opinions, some challenge the facts. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11138804

Is NZ a haven for champions of the oppressed? :shifty:

my honest opinion is that statistically this is a very safe, low crime, and honest country. so journos don't have much to do and they are lazy and often stupid and incompetent. Couple that with a 24 hour news cycle and declining ad revenue, a failing business model and the theory that if it bleeds it leads and you get an over focus on crime, and the rare-ish (one trusts) cases where the po po or the courts fuck something up garner far more attention than they are due.

meanwhile actual news goes unreported, as does much actual crime. This is relevant: the stats show* that welfare fraud cost you and I $1BN in any given year. Yoiks you say, thats a lot! And it is. But the same stats also show that tax fraud cost the country $6BN in that year. The best estimate of the prosecution rates for the benny fraudsters was something like 80% but for tax fraud, less than 20.

So the lesson is: be a white collar criminal.

*I am quoting from memory and will try and dredge up the story I read it in.

edit here seems to be the source:

http://sydney.edu.au/law/parsons/ATTA/docs_pdfs/conference_papers/Marriott.pdf

By the way I havent read all of the Privy Council's judgment in the Lundy appeal, but what I have read is very interesting. It may cause me to alter my opinion of this matter.

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/201341/Lundy%20judgment.pdf

I assume someone already posted that link?

Note that Dame Sian Elias (NZ Chief Justice) was one of the panel.

[Erelyes]

You can't just say "he did it, but we don't know when".

Why not? It gets rid of the inconvenient, incontrovertible cellphone-record alibis that Mark has.

Ok, ok, I get it. We'll find another time that his alibi doesn't cover, and find some expert to establish that as TOD. :2thumbsup

[oldrider]

Have read quite a lot of material about this and while still deep in the dark a few things remain in my mind like if it was not Lundy, what sort of person could it be?

The killer might have been (well) known to Mrs Lundy and the child and very familiar with the layout of the home including Lundy's tool shed.

The house had been rigged to appear as if there had been a break in and Mrs Lundy had not been unduly disturbed or in the process of resistance.

There would have been considerable mess from the killing action and the child appeared to have been retreating from the room as if she had surprised the attacker.

The weapon was never found but paint matching that which Lundy had used to paint his tools was found in the wound areas of the victims.

A jewellery box was the only thing that was apparently missing.

When Lundy could get no response on the phone in the morning he asked her brother to go round and check on them. (about 09.00hrs)

The brother had to break into the house to gain access.

Why would a random burglar/killer who had broken into the house and randomly killed two people leave in an orderly manner and lock and secure the house?

There is even suggestion that the computer clocks had been tampered with to give conflicting evidential information hardly random.

Hardly the panicky actions of a random burglar/killer who was unfamiliar with house and who would obviously be in an highly emotionally excited state of mind!

Just reading the reports available on the net and thinking if it wasn't Lundy, who could it be and how would they behave or think in the circumstances.

Cant find anything about other suspects and their alibis, I hope the police have given that as thorough a work over as they have given Lundy!

I am only commenting on information that is freely available to anyone to read on the internet nothing else!

[Drew]

If the time of death cannot be ascertained then the police will have no case.

You can't just say "he did it, but we don't know when".

The time of death was supposedly determined by the contents of the victims stomachs.

While the pathologist's initial determination may have been wrong, he can't have been wrong by 6 or so hours.World renowned pathologists have said the original time of death could be wrong by over six hours. There's a link to an interview in this thread some place.

[Winston001]

There would have been considerable mess from the killing action and the child appeared to have been retreating from the room as if she had surprised the attacker.

The weapon was never found but paint matching that which Lundy had used to paint his tools was found in the wound areas of the victims.

Why would a random burglar/killer who had broken into the house and randomly killed two people leave in an orderly manner and lock and secure the house?


Hardly the panicky actions of a random burglar/killer who was unfamiliar with house and who would obviously be in an highly emotionally excited state of mind!



Agreed John, these matters bother me too.

Christine Lundy was viciously killed by multiple blows including to her face.

That suggests very strong emotions in the attacker and that it was personal.

A burglar who is suprised will lash out and possibly kill but they will leave as quickly as possible in panic.

[Banditbandit]

The Lor Lords are not aristos, they are appointed to the PC because they are the senior judges of the dominions. Robin Cooke (thats Lord Cooke of Thorndon to you, you oik) was a Lor Lord. As I think was Ted Thomas.

Lord Cooke of Thorndon ??? Certainly looks like an aristo to me (off with his head !!!) I do realise there is a difference between hereditary aristos and appointed/risen aristos ... the difference is only in the number of generations ..

[Swoop]

The Privy Council is not the whole world - just a bunch of British-derived aristocrats !!!
Couldn't care a whit about their background or hobbies, they do see cases with independence and are not tainted with exposure to something that may have been all over the news in another part of the Commonwealth.

Luckily they appear to be on the side of justice and are most happy to send cases back for re-trial.

[korimako1]

The Privy Council is not the whole world - just a bunch of British-derived aristocrats !!!

we had our own there as well, Dame Sian Elias. NZ Chief Justice

[Crasherfromwayback]

we had our own there as well, Dame Sian Elias. NZ Chief Justice

When are you gonna tell us how you know for a fact Lundy didn't do it? You're pretty good at calling other people dreamers and asking for proof. Your turn now. Let's hear it.

[korimako1]

Have read quite a lot of material about this and while still deep in the dark a few things remain in my mind like if it was not Lundy, what sort of person could it be?

The killer might have been (well) known to Mrs Lundy and the child and very familiar with the layout of the home including Lundy's tool shed.

The house had been rigged to appear as if there had been a break in and Mrs Lundy had not been unduly disturbed or in the process of resistance.

There would have been considerable mess from the killing action and the child appeared to have been retreating from the room as if she had surprised the attacker.

The weapon was never found but paint matching that which Lundy had used to paint his tools was found in the wound areas of the victims.

A jewellery box was the only thing that was apparently missing.

When Lundy could get no response on the phone in the morning he asked her brother to go round and check on them. (about 09.00hrs)

The brother had to break into the house to gain access.

Why would a random burglar/killer who had broken into the house and randomly killed two people leave in an orderly manner and lock and secure the house?

There is even suggestion that the computer clocks had been tampered with to give conflicting evidential information hardly random.

Hardly the panicky actions of a random burglar/killer who was unfamiliar with house and who would obviously be in an highly emotionally excited state of mind!

Just reading the reports available on the net and thinking if it wasn't Lundy, who could it be and how would they behave or think in the circumstances.

Cant find anything about other suspects and their alibis, I hope the police have given that as thorough a work over as they have given Lundy!

I am only commenting on information that is freely available to anyone to read on the internet nothing else!

Be careful about believing media reports and misinformation. you wont find anything about other suspects without a OIA request to Police.
The police got this badly wrong, couldnt solve it and then set M/L up for the fall. They will now fight tooth and nail to cover up there mistakes and botch ups and non-disclosure. The win at all costs mentality, never mind the truth, is a cancer inside the Police that just keeps growing and festering.

[oldrider]

Be careful about believing media reports and misinformation. you wont find anything about other suspects without a OIA request to Police.
The police got this badly wrong, couldnt solve it and then set M/L up for the fall. They will now fight tooth and nail to cover up there mistakes and botch ups and non-disclosure. The win at all costs mentality, never mind the truth, is a cancer inside the Police that just keeps growing and festering.

I didn't say I believed anything ... I don't know ... I said I was just reading everything that I could find on the internet.

If you are so sure that Mark Lundy didn't do it ... do you know who did do it? ... Somebody did that is a fact for sure!

Funny thing is who supports Lundy and who doesn't especially the closer they are to him ... I find that curious if nothing else! :shifty:

[korimako1]

When are you gonna tell us how you know for a fact Lundy didn't do it? You're pretty good at calling other people dreamers and asking for proof. Your turn now. Let's hear it.

I said, correct, he didnt do it.
I have read the full trial transcript, the privy council decision, and I am not swayed by media. Facts quite clearly tell me M/L did not commit this crime. FACTS.
Dreams are free keep aiming for the sky buddy.

[scott411]

I said, correct, he didnt do it.
I have read the full trial transcript, the privy council decision, and I am not swayed by media. Facts quite clearly tell me M/L did not commit this crime. FACTS.
Dreams are free keep aiming for the sky buddy.

a quick version of those facts would be nice, you still have not answered why,

[Paul in NZ]

I said, correct, he didnt do it.
I have read the full trial transcript, the privy council decision, and I am not swayed by media. Facts quite clearly tell me M/L did not commit this crime. FACTS.
Dreams are free keep aiming for the sky buddy.

Well not quite...

I suspect what you mean is that the information presented as 'facts' are arguable and as presented add up to reasonable doubt that M/L was the guilty party.

There is likely a lot of undisclosed/undiscovered/miss interpreted info out there that may prove the case either way.

The biggest problem for the prosecution now is building either a higher level of proof that he did do it or finding the person who did. Its gaulling that in this era we still can't solve some crimes either because the crime is so random or that some criminals are still too clever.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Lord Cooke of Thorndon ??? Certainly looks like an aristo to me (off with his head !!!) I do realise there is a difference between hereditary aristos and appointed/risen aristos ... the difference is only in the number of generations ..

Not really. I am dredging Lors 101 from like 1988 here but while the appointment to the Privy council proper is/was based on the aristocracy and inherited wealth, and originally the Judicial Committee was comprised of a bunch of chinless wonders who were more or less talented amateurs, the current incarnation of the Judicial Committee of the PC is the top lawyers in the jurisdictions. Its one of the reasons why we should never have gotten rid of it, in my view.

IIRC the original function of the PC was as the kings advisers and they were literally the last stop and advised the monarch about exercise of the Royal Prerogative of Mercy (and you thought RPM stood for revolutions per minute).

It is reflective of the twin strains of lor we inherited from mother England: Law and Equity... which had their own courts and stuff.

http://www.jcpc.gov.uk/about/role-of-the-jcpc.html

[korimako1]

I didn't say I believed anything ... I don't know ... I said I was just reading everything that I could find on the internet.

If you are so sure that Mark Lundy didn't do it ... do you know who did do it? ... Somebody did that is a fact for sure!

Funny thing is who supports Lundy and who doesn't especially the closer they are to him ... I find that curious if nothing else! :shifty:

OK fair enough, there is some shocking false claims and information on the net. I agree somebody did do it but the FACTS, some of which have only now come out through Privy Council, quite clearly show M/L conviction was unsafe. And perhaps I should have said, in my opinion, to appease the dreamers out there,(hes quite touchy about being called a dreamer, must have issues) that I am convinced M/L didnt do it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I said, correct, he didnt do it.
I have read the full trial transcript, the privy council decision, and I am not swayed by media. Facts quite clearly tell me M/L did not commit this crime. FACTS.
Dreams are free keep aiming for the sky buddy.

As I thought. Just another retard that can't comprehend the meaning of the word *fact*. Get back to me when you do understand the meaning of it dropkick. And supply me some. Until then...go fuck yourself.

[Banditbandit]

No-one has all the facts - that's the problem

The Privy Council do nmot have all the facts (all they've said is what they saw are not facts to convict on)

The news media certainly does not have all the facts ..

The police may have a lot of facts - but they are not telling everything they know ... and may not have all the facts anyway ...


So how the hell are any of us to decide Lundy's guilt or innocence? I have no idea whether he did it - I think there's a bloody good chance he did .. but I'm not convinced of that ... but I also know it's a bloody big step to go from the Privy Council saying "the conviction was unsafe" to "he did not do it" ...

[Crasherfromwayback]

No-one has all the facts - that's the problem

The Privy Council do nmot have all the facts (all they've said is what they saw are not facts to convict on)

The news media certainly does not have all the facts ..

The police may have a lot of facts - but they are not telling everything they know ... and may not have all the facts anyway ...


So how the hell are any of us to decide Lundy's guilt or innocence? I have no idea whether he did it - I think there's a bloody good chance he did .. but I'm not convinced of that ... but I also know it's a bloody big step to go from the Privy Council saying "the conviction was unsafe" to "he did not do it" ...

Correct. And it's why I've only ever said I think he did it. But like Scott Watson's case, I was very surprised he went down for it.

[Banditbandit]

Correct. And it's why I've only ever said I think he did it. But like Scott Watson's case, I was very surprised he went down for it.

Naaa ... I've sat through enough murder trials to think that if you are accussed of murder there's a good chance you will be convicted - even if you did not do it ...

The "12 good men and true" are too easily swayed by "murderer" ... Do you think you'd have a chance of a not guilty verdicty if 12 members of KBer were on the jury? I would not like to bet it .. get the wrong 12 and you'd be gone ...

[oldrider]

God save us from the jury system ... that's my experience and my honest opinion ... take a look who are "always available" for jury service! :facepalm:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Do you think you'd have a chance of a not guilty verdicty if 12 members of KBer were on the jury? I would not like to bet it .. get the wrong 12 and you'd be gone ...

Not if the twelve members are the simpletons that don't know what facts are.

[Crasherfromwayback]

God save us from the jury system ... that's my experience and my honest opinion ... take a look who are "always available" for jury service! :facepalm:

I would've thought we'd be poss better off with 12 jurors that actually understand the legal system, not just Joe Blogg's plucked from the street.

[scott411]

God save us from the jury system ... that's my experience and my honest opinion ... take a look who are "always available" for jury service! :facepalm:

agreed, i dont think i would ever want to put my life in the hands of people that have 3 weeks available to sit on a jury,

[HenryDorsetCase]

N

So how the hell are any of us to decide Lundy's guilt or innocence? .

points against Mark Lundy: apparent bad actor. blu blockers. bit of a ham planet.

points for him: great legal team; real "reasonable doubt"; maybe he didn't do it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. bit of a ham planet.

.

Talking of ham...needed one of these the other week.

288658

[Banditbandit]

I would've thought we'd be poss better off with 12 jurors that actually understand the legal system, not just Joe Blogg's plucked from the street.

Yeah ... but you get 12 Joe Bloggs plucked from the street - you actually get the people who can't find a reason to get out of it, the unemployed/beneficiaries/superannuitants and the ones who want to send people to jail ...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah ... but you get 12 Joe Bloggs plucked from the street - you actually get the people who can't find a reason to get out of it, the unemployed/beneficiaries/superannuitants and the ones who want to send people to jail ...

I agree mate.

[oldrider]

Yeah ... but you get 12 Joe Bloggs plucked from the street - you actually get the people who can't find a reason to get out of it, the unemployed/beneficiaries/superannuitants and the ones who want to send people to jail ...

Exactly! :yeah:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Talking of ham...needed one of these the other week.



were you the awesome wingman, or the smoove dude making the play?

also, is that a T shirt?

[Crasherfromwayback]

were you the awesome wingman, or the smoove dude making the play?

also, is that a T shirt?

I was making the moooooooves! I wish it was a shirt. I'd be owning one. Mind you, not difficult to get one custom printed up nowadays!

[Winston001]

Yeah ... but you get 12 Joe Bloggs plucked from the street - you actually get the people who can't find a reason to get out of it, the unemployed/beneficiaries/superannuitants and the ones who want to send people to jail ...

Very true except the last bit. There is a real concern among those who study such things (jurisprudence) that modern juries are no longer representative of society because as you say, those who serve tend not to be full time workers.

However from a defence point of view this is all good - these are also the people who are likely to acquit.

[oldrider]

For those that did not see this program, it's certainly worth a look:http://www.3news.co.nz/Quashed-Why-Mark-Lundy-was-freed/tabid/1771/articleID/317521/Default.aspx

If not Lundy, were the alternative suspects given enough attention by the Police? :confused:

[Maha]

The 'Lundy Three Hundy' is to take place on November 30. Seven teams have signed up for the car ''race'' which leaves from the former Lundy Karamea cres address, then on to Petone and back.

[Paul in NZ]

Ding ding - round two....

sigh....

[ElCoyote]

The 'Lundy Three Hundy' is to take place on November 30. Seven teams have signed up for the car ''race'' which leaves from the former Lundy Karamea cres address, then on to Petone and back.

Can't be done in the time alleged. Not saying he didn't do it but the time needs scrutiny.

[JimO]

police have moved the goalpost back or forward

[awa355]

In this corner, MAARRKK LUUNNNDDEEEE !!! :argh:

In this corner, TRUUTTTHH , JUSSTICCE,:Oops::Oops: sorry, in this corner, The COOPPPS.

Sitting on the bench for this 3 month bout is Da MEEDDIIAA!!

:yawn::yawn::yawn:

[Waihou Thumper]

Heard on the news...
Reported to have said....

"I would never have done what I did to my wife if I knew my daughter was home?"

Mind you that could be construed to say, "I took her pillow from the bed and left her with one instead of two" i.e anything...

something like that....
Hearsay?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Shoot the fat cunt in the head.

[avgas]

Shoot the fat cunt in the head.
Jenny Craigs New Diet Supplement?

[mossy1200]

My wifey was called up on jury duty for the trial.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Jenny Craigs New Diet Supplement?

Lol. Lead Disprin.

[merv]

Can't be done in the time alleged. Not saying he didn't do it but the time needs scrutiny.

Yeah but isn't there a question about the time of murder not necessarily being in the original tight window talked about?

[Drew]

Yeah but isn't there a question about the time of murder not necessarily being in the original tight window talked about?

Yip, the doctor who did the autopsy fucked up. Based on the smell of the stomach contents. No other doctor consulted said that such a method could be accurate.

They died later, and Lundy had plenty of time post hooker to do it.

[mossy1200]

Married man admits doing a hooker. Every women on the jury will say guilty regardless.

[ElCoyote]

Yeah but isn't there a question about the time of murder not necessarily being in the original tight window talked about?

I wasn't aware of that Merv. I should correct my earlier observation. To have made the trip he would have had to pass your place (sort of) and that's all 50k. From then on he would have taken a huge risk with his speed and emotional state. Mr Popo for all his faults is not stupid. Then he has to leg it somewhat to the house and back and repeat running the gauntlet which if stopped would sink him.

However if the time frame is being extended then it is possible. Keep me in the loop Merv. Took some beaut shots around the inlet over Xmas with the GoPro. Next time down will do the Paekak hill and the other side.

Keep well you and Gat,

PH

[oldrider]

Just been over this thread material again - somebody out there must be getting very uncomfortable and I don't mean the Police - if not Lundy - WHO? :wait: .:scratch:

Gunna be interesting I guess! :corn:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Just been over this thread material again - somebody out there must be getting very uncomfortable and I don't mean the Police - if not Lundy - WHO? :wait: .:scratch:

Gunna be interesting I guess! :corn:

I would say without a shadow of a doubt that the fat cunt did it. Just not when they say he did originally.

[Paul in NZ]

I would say without a shadow of a doubt that the fat cunt did it. Just not when they say he did originally.

The biggest issue Mark Lundy faces is that he looks a bit of a weirdo, a guilty wierdo... While I sympathise - he just looks like he did it... Its got to be hard for the defence to get past that... Hes changed his 'look' but...

[Crasherfromwayback]

The biggest issue Mark Lundy faces is that he looks a bit of a weirdo, a guilty wierdo... While I sympathise - he just looks like he did it... Its got to be hard for the defence to get past that... Hes changed his 'look' but...

Yeah and *burglers* don't generally bash little girls heads in with a tomahawk either.

[Banditbandit]

I would say without a shadow of a doubt that the fat cunt did it. Just not when they say he did originally.


Yeah and *burglers* don't generally bash little girls heads in with a tomahawk either.


And he has to explain how the wife's brain and spinal cord material got onto his shirt. This is not just DNA evidence (hell, you'd expect to find wife's DNA all through his clothes) but brain and spinal cord material? That means that at least his shirt was present when she was chopped up with the tomahawk ... the defense will try to challenge the DNA evidence .. but they will have a hard job challenging brain and spinal cord material ...

[F5 Dave]

No they won't, the forensics are a joke apparently and method since discredited.

IF the timeframe was correct then he could have made the trip if he threw all caution to the wind. But he could not have gotten out of the car. That would have required closed roads & a demented Superbike rider.

So if he didn't do it, who did? As Pete sez, not many sane people could do that to a kid, not a burgler.

And that is the hard bit to understand.


Random thought. Cut off your hands P guy could have.

[Paul in NZ]

No they won't, the forensics are a joke apparently and method since discredited.

IF the timeframe was correct then he could have made the trip if he threw all caution to the wind. But he could not have gotten out of the car. That would have required closed roads & a demented Superbike rider.

So if he didn't do it, who did? As Pete sez, not many sane people could do that to a kid, not a burgler.

And that is the hard bit to understand.


Random thought. Cut off your hands P guy could have.

But that's just it - the forensics are wrong and the time of death isn't correct so he could have done it. The problem is that if one thing about the forensic evidence is wrong - is all of it wrong? Everything then hinges on motive and opportunity. Random murders are rare... (thankfully)

[F5 Dave]

But that's just it - the forensics are wrong and the time of death isn't correct so he could have done it. No idea about the time. Some real clarity there would be a game changer.



The problem is that if one thing about the forensic evidence is wrong - is all of it wrong? Everything then hinges on motive and opportunity. I was talking about the tissue on shirt.

The thing that scares me is if there was a murderer out there that hadn't been caught. If.

[oldrider]

Yeah and *burglers* don't generally bash little girls heads in with a tomahawk either.

If not Lundy - someone with emotional attachment and motive - may have been surprised by the child but then murdered her to cover themselves!

If not Lundy they were at least familiar with his tool shed and why would they close the place up again if they were a random or drug induced?

My guess is if not Lundy someone close to the family - to kill like that has to be strong and emotionally driven surely! - Interesting case now. :corn:

[Flip]

I am following this myself. I have no faith in the media to accurately portray what is being said in court. All the matters is what 12 good people think, and we will know soon enough.

[Banditbandit]

No they won't, the forensics are a joke apparently and method since discredited.



Yeah - quite a bit of the forensics is very bad ... but they won't use all that stuff in the current trial. They know it can be challenged too easily ..

However, they are using the brain and spinal cord material in the current trial ... It's hard to get passed. There's no way it could have got on the shirt unless the shirt was there .. and if the shirt was there then there's a very high chance that Mark Lundy was there too.

[MisterD]

Yeah - quite a bit of the forensics is very bad ... but they won't use all that stuff in the current trial. They know it can be challenged too easily ..

They'll have learnt from the Bain trial how effective it is for the defence to attack forensic evidence from so long ago, that's now impossible to retest and can be painted to a thick jury as if it was always impossible.

My familiarity with the case is really only based on the Bryan Bruce doco, but I remember finding his reasoning convincing, doesn't seem to be on the TVNZ website at the moment though.

[korimako1]

My wifey was called up on jury duty for the trial.

if she made it onto the jury, the judge was quite clear about not using face book, twitter and sites like this.

[korimako1]

Just been over this thread material again - somebody out there must be getting very uncomfortable and I don't mean the Police - if not Lundy - WHO? :wait: .:scratch:

Gunna be interesting I guess! :corn:

seems the defence have pointed the finger, and the police have screwed up yet again.

[korimako1]

For those that did not see this program, it's certainly worth a look:http://www.3news.co.nz/Quashed-Why-Mark-Lundy-was-freed/tabid/1771/articleID/317521/Default.aspx

If not Lundy, were the alternative suspects given enough attention by the Police? :confused:

from your 2013 quote. obviously not.

[oldrider]

seems the defence have pointed the finger, and the police have screwed up yet again.

So the re-trial has brought you back to the surface - I guess you will be hoping for a different result this time?

[korimako1]

So the re-trial has brought you back to the surface - I guess you will be hoping for a different result this time?

I have been checking in from time to time, I guess we will have to wait and see. I am hoping for a different result, we'll see what happens.
Note that already evidence not heard at the first trial has come out. Christine and Ambers blood found in the boot of her brothers car and at his home. If that had been him on trial the first time it would have been pretty compiling evidence would it not?

[Crasherfromwayback]

. Christine and Ambers blood found in the boot of her brothers car and at his home. If that had been him on trial the first time it would have been pretty compiling evidence would it not?

Why so? He found the dead bodies and checked Ambers pulse. Hardly surprising he had their blood on him no?

[Bassmatt]

Why so? He found the dead bodies and checked Ambers pulse. Hardly surprising he had their blood on him no?

"Christine and Ambers blood found in the boot of her brothers car and at his home. "
He says he didn't go into the bedroom so how did he get Christines blood on him, in the boot of his car and his home?

"When police used the chemical luminol to test his boot, it "glowed like a glowworm", according to Mr Hislop. But Mr Weggery said he was unsure why that was the case" http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11399418

Looks like the cops have fucked up again, to me.

[Crasherfromwayback]

"Christine and Ambers blood found in the boot of her brothers car and at his home. "
He says he didn't go into the bedroom so how did he get Christines blood on him, in the boot of his car and his home?

.

At a guess, I'd say Amber had a shitload of her mothers blood on her mate. I mean...when your head is bashed in with over twenty blows form a tomahawk...that shit'll be everywhere no?

[Bassmatt]

At a guess, I'd say Amber had a shitload of her mothers blood on her mate. I mean...when your head is bashed in with over twenty blows form a tomahawk...that shit'll be everywhere no?

Amber was found dead outside the bedroom, she wasn't in the room when the mother was killed.

Doesn't explain (neither can he) the blood in the boot of his car.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Amber was found dead outside the bedroom, she wasn't in the room when the mother was killed.

Doesn't explain (neither can he) the blood in the boot of his car.

Thought she'd disturbed the killer doing the bizz? If she was in or near the doorway I've no doubt she'd have been sprayed. And why wouldn't traces of it be in his boot? You never get anything out of the boot of your car? What possible motivation did the Bro have? And where did Lundies full tank of fuel go over night?

[korimako1]

Why so? He found the dead bodies and checked Ambers pulse. Hardly surprising he had their blood on him no?

he said he never touched Christine, and he was in his truck. How did blood get in the boot of his car.

[Banditbandit]

The blood may have got there on a previous occassion ....

[Drew]

If there is no other evidence supporting the brother as the killer, does the blood provide reasonable doubt for Lundy?

Wouldn't like to have to make the cool.

[Bassmatt]

Thought she'd disturbed the killer doing the bizz? If she was in or near the doorway I've no doubt she'd have been sprayed. And why wouldn't traces of it be in his boot? You never get anything out of the boot of your car? What possible motivation did the Bro have? And where did Lundies full tank of fuel go over night?
No doubt? How far was the bed from the doorway, is it a straight line between the bad and the doorway or is the bed "round the corner"
Why wouldn't traces be in his boot? - How did it get there? It lit up "like a glowworm" we are not talking a couple of specks.
I haven't followed the case at all, but when I read about this I just thought "here we go again, cops trying to fit the evidence to the person they have decided must have done it, and ignoring everything else.



The blood may have got there on a previous occassion ....

Then he should be able to explain it?