Trackdays - 3 groups or 4?

[Mort]

I'm interested in views here....

Compare and contrast :

3 Groups - Kiwi Trackdays

6 sessions
30 minutes between riding sessions
Active all day - very little time to sit around getting bored


4 Groups - MotoTT and Redline

Minimum of 4 sessions
at least 60 minutes between sessions and sometimes 2 hours around lunch
Very very boring


Some of the track day organisers say the 4th session is to accomodate Motards. I think this stinks because a) There aren't enough of them and b) If they rode in the courteous manner expected of everyone else on the track there wouldn't be a need to segregate them. The REAL reason for the 4th group is so the organisers can book more riders for the track with an extra group. More profit for the organiser, less track time for you.

Only Steve Fishers outfit (KiwiTrackdays) runs the 3 group format at Taupo from what I can tell. I did one of his days last month followed (next day) by a MotoTT day. I can only say that by comparison, the 4 group format absolutely sucks. A whole day at the track and I only managed 4 sessions plus a short 10 minute blast. Sitting around the garage for hours waiting to ride. Around lunch the break between sessions was over two hours !!!. So much time is spent waiting and waiting. Many people go home for the before the last session because it's really not worth waiting another hour for a shortened last session on track. They go home because they are bored waiting. The only real solution to getting track time on these days is to book twice in 2 groups - Should that be necessary ?

The previous day (3 group format) was the total opposite. Between sessions you have enough time to sort the bike, have a rest, take a drink then bang... you're back out on the track again doing what you went to the track to do. You get in to a good active rhythm and by the end of the day you feel like you've got the best out of the day.

By comparison I cannot understand why MotoTT days are over subscribed and KiwiTrackdays are not. As far as event format is concerned there is no comparison. You get a great day with KiwiTrackdays and you get a long day sat on your arse with some riding thrown in at MotoTT.


So, a big high five to Steve Fisher and Kiwi Trackdays who without doubt run the best trackdays. He still understands why we do track days - to get time on the track.

[J-rod]

I'm interested in views here....

Compare and contrast :

3 Groups - Kiwi Trackdays

6 sessions
30 minutes between riding sessions
Active all day - very little time to sit around getting bored


4 Groups - MotoTT and Redline

Minimum of 4 sessions
at least 60 minutes between sessions and sometimes 2 hours around lunch
Very very boring


Some of the track day organisers say the 4th session is to accomodate Motards. I think this stinks because a) There aren't enough of them and b) If they rode in the courteous manner expected of everyone else on the track there wouldn't be a need to segregate them. The REAL reason for the 4th group is so the organisers can book more riders for the track with an extra group. More profit for the organiser, less track time for you.

Only Steve Fishers outfit (KiwiTrackdays) runs the 3 group format at Taupo from what I can tell. I did one of his days last month followed (next day) by a MotoTT day. I can only say that by comparison, the 4 group format absolutely sucks. A whole day at the track and I only managed 4 sessions plus a short 10 minute blast. Sitting around the garage for hours waiting to ride. Around lunch the break between sessions was over two hours !!!. So much time is spent waiting and waiting. Many people go home for the before the last session because it's really not worth waiting another hour for a shortened last session on track. They go home because they are bored waiting. The only real solution to getting track time on these days is to book twice in 2 groups - Should that be necessary ?

The previous day (3 group format) was the total opposite. Between sessions you have enough time to sort the bike, have a rest, take a drink then bang... you're back out on the track again doing what you went to the track to do. You get in to a good active rhythm and by the end of the day you feel like you've got the best out of the day.

By comparison I cannot understand why MotoTT days are over subscribed and KiwiTrackdays are not. As far as event format is concerned there is no comparison. You get a great day with KiwiTrackdays and you get a long day sat on your arse with some riding thrown in at MotoTT.


So, a big high five to Steve Fisher and Kiwi Trackdays who without doubt run the best trackdays. He still understands why we do track days - to get time on the track.
The best thing I found about the Kiwitrack day was that the track wasn't packed, there were a lot of bikes, but not so much that it became an obstacle working with them...

On a second note, does anyone know of a way to get your bike to the Taupo track for March's track day, say other than riding it? I'm guessing a lot of people on here go to them and maybe going to Steve's next one, anyone interested in trailer pooling?

[GIXser]

ive ridden both, and i think that they both run great trackdays, even four sessions is a lot of riding at high speed, you need to keep your wits about you,
i dont think it makes a lot of difference 4 or 6 , its about safety and fun

[st3f]

I'm interested in views here....

Compare and contrast :

3 Groups - Kiwi Trackdays

6 sessions
30 minutes between riding sessions
Active all day - very little time to sit around getting bored


4 Groups - MotoTT and Redline

Minimum of 4 sessions
at least 60 minutes between sessions and sometimes 2 hours around lunch
Very very boring



What you left out was that the MotoTT sessions are longer:

4*20 + 10 = 90 minutes
6*15 = 90 minutes


You get exactly the same amount of track time, and with longer sessions you have longer to focus on whatever you're working on rather than constantly running out of time, sitting around for a bit and then having to get back in the groove again.

[discotex]

By comparison I cannot understand why MotoTT days are over subscribed and KiwiTrackdays are not.

My insurance considers full scrutineering and enforcement of passing rules a requirement for trackday cover to be extended.

So far that is only MotoTT that I know of.

[sinfull]

What you left out was that the MotoTT sessions are longer:

4*20 + 10 = 90 minutes
6*15 = 90 minutes


You get exactly the same amount of track time, and with longer sessions you have longer to focus on whatever you're working on rather than constantly running out of time, sitting around for a bit and then having to get back in the groove again.


My insurance considers full scrutineering and enforcement of passing rules a requirement for trackday cover to be extended.

So far that is only MotoTT that I know of.
Both valid points Mort !
But hey it's track time i'm into and since i have given up road riding, i both need/can afford to do all available eg both and more !

You know what i'd really wish for if i could ? Thats access to a track whenever i wish, so i could become ride fit ! Once or twice a month aint enough in my book !~

[puddy]

My insurance considers full scrutineering and enforcement of passing rules a requirement for trackday cover to be extended.

So far that is only MotoTT that I know of.
I attend both Kiwi and Moto days, and am happy to continue to do so. But if I had to choose, I'd say the behaviour at Kiwi days is a little better............and with regard to enforcement of passing rules .............. it's just not a trackday unless some CUNT:2guns: cuts you off, and they still get to ride the rest of the day!

[sinfull]

I attend both Kiwi and Moto days, and am happy to continue to do so. But if I had to choose, I'd say the behaviour at Kiwi days is a little better............and with regard to enforcement of passing rules .............. it's just not a trackday unless some CUNT:2guns: cuts you off, and they still get to ride the rest of the day!
Cant say i have experienced that TBH, I hope i haven't done that to anyone ? Hard to tell if ya do, not havin mirrors an all !

[Mort]

What you left out was that the MotoTT sessions are longer:

4*20 + 10 = 90 minutes
6*15 = 90 minutes




Thats not correct...

If MotoTT run 4 groups and each get 90 minutes that is 360 minutes total track time for the day.

If KiwiTrackdays run the same 90 minutes with 3 groups that is 270 minutes.

Kiwitracks days run the same length day (10 - 4:30) but each group gets 6 x 20 minutes (120) minutes. Which equals the same 360 minutes total track time for the event across the 3 groups.

In other words you get more track time and less waiting time. Its very noticable when you are doing it.


As far as how the day is run I rate KiwiTracksays higher too (this is not a slag off of MotoTT but the issue was raised above so I am responding). If anything I would say the Kiwi trackday is better managed.

At MotoTT , I have seen :

Ambulances turning up at 12 - I have seen on two occasions that they run sessions without ambulances - that is unacceptable to my mind
Stating it is OK (at the riders briefing) for riders to stop on the track and help a fallen rider. I have video of riders parked up and running across the main straight... thats's pretty bad.
Pillions on track - that is asking for it
Stunts... unnecessary risk


KiwiTrackdays have the same passing rules as far as I can tell...

I'm not slagging MotoTT as a firm. They are nice people and the event suits most people. But, by comparison you do get more track time and less endless waiting with a 3 group format. I think they should also tighten up on safety a bit.

[Biggles08]

At MotoTT , I have seen :

Ambulances turning up at 12 - I have seen on two occasions that they run sessions without ambulances - that is unacceptable to my mind
Stating it is OK (at the riders briefing) for riders to stop on the track and help a fallen rider. I have video of riders parked up and running across the main straight... thats's pretty bad.
Pillions on track - that is asking for it
Stunts... unnecessary risk



Bollocks!!!! Mort...you are full of SHIT!!!!

I have been to most of the MotoTT track days all throughout 2008 and can 100% say they are THE SAFEST track day organizers on the market today. Steve at Kiwitrackdays runs a great day too but for you to state absolute rubbish about MotoTT days here is un-fucking-acceptable! MotoTT organizers go to great pains to protect their integrity and safety procedures and as has already been mentioned before, are one of the few track days that most insurance companies will cover for!

Like I said, Kiwitrackdays are great too and I have never had any issues there BUT FFS Mort, where do you get off telling complete lies?!?! :slap:

[CHOPPA]

Kiwitrackdays suits me better with some of there rules, ive had lots of words with moto tt about there group setup.
Moto tt dont really have a group that cater for fast riders, they have a fast group that has fast riders and motards that are f*&ken slow then they have a medium fast group with equally as slow sport bikes so you cant win.
Its put me off riding track days a bit but in saying that the guys from moto tt are such a good bunch of really well organised people and i can understand why insurance companys let you use there service. There days are not designed to be a test session for race bikes :)

[sinfull]

There days are not designed to be a test session for race bikes :)
Very good point and it was only at a recent trackday that the guys at motott were checking to make sure no timers were used !
Why some might ask ? Well as above, they aint designed as a test session and prolly shouldn't be used as one, cause the insures have stipulated that for them to have the priviledge of the cover they offer, timers are not allowed !
BUT and it's a big but (one t thanks) where else can i reduce my lap times ?
Sure i wont go out there with a timer, cause i respect that it's a rule them guys cant avoid and have to hold up !
I don't actually mind riding with the tards (sure i aint going that quick that they are in my way lol more like i want their corner speed)
You know what's really missing is the guys like you and Eddie, who now have priorities (rubber wears out) running in the fast groups, to drag a few seconds (that wont be measured) off other riders times ! I do both the tt days and the Kiwi (have not made it to a redline as yet) and Promo (used race) tyres (you can slow down if ya want) could be worth using up at any of them days, which i'm sure would be greatly appreciated by any number of riders !
Ya like that twist ?

[CHOPPA]

Very good point and it was only at a recent trackday that the guys at motott were checking to make sure no timers were used !
Why some might ask ? Well as above, they aint designed as a test session and prolly shouldn't be used as one, cause the insures have stipulated that for them to have the priviledge of the cover they offer, timers are not allowed !
BUT and it's a big but (one t thanks) where else can i reduce my lap times ?
Sure i wont go out there with a timer, cause i respect that it's a rule them guys cant avoid and have to hold up !
I don't actually mind riding with the tards (sure i aint going that quick that they are in my way lol more like i want their corner speed)
You know what's really missing is the guys like you and Eddie, who now have priorities (rubber wears out) running in the fast groups, to drag a few seconds (that wont be measured) off other riders times ! I do both the tt days and the Kiwi (have not made it to a redline as yet) and Promo (used race) tyres (you can slow down if ya want) could be worth using up at any of them days, which i'm sure would be greatly appreciated by any number of riders !
Ya like that twist ?

Ill still go to track days for sure, ill always have plenty of tyres cheap and im good at changin them lol I really enjoy just playing around with my mates at track days and trying to help them go quicker... well untill someone goes screaming past then i have a diff idea lol

Ill be using track days to get used to my new bike when i get it.

If anyone is interested in some things i might be able to help them out with to go fast just let me know cause id be more then happy to come help out and it would be a bit of an ego trip for me too so thats cool hahaha

[Mort]

Bollocks!!!! Mort...you are full of SHIT!!!!

I have been to most of the MotoTT track days all throughout 2008 and can 100% say they are THE SAFEST track day organizers on the market today. Steve at Kiwitrackdays runs a great day too but for you to state absolute rubbish about MotoTT days here is un-fucking-acceptable! MotoTT organizers go to great pains to protect their integrity and safety procedures and as has already been mentioned before, are one of the few track days that most insurance companies will cover for!

Like I said, Kiwitrackdays are great too and I have never had any issues there BUT FFS Mort, where do you get off telling complete lies?!?! :slap:



Hang on a minute.. what you are saying is "un-fucking-acceptable"... to call me a liar you should have some evidence. What I said is absolutely true and was made in response to an issue raised by another poster about comparable safety between the firms. It was NOT meant as an attack on the safety record of MotoTT. From what I can see they have a similar accident rate but I think the risks are different.

All these points are true. How they affect safety depends on your point of view. Some may say its fine. Others may not. It won't stop me from riding a MotoTT day but I think these issues should be addressed... that is my opinion... and the 4 points mentioned are facts.

1. On the 17th january I saw two ambos turn up at about 12 noon. On a previous track day over a year ago I saw them turn up at a similar time. That time we were warned that no ambulances were available in the morning and sessions were allowed to continue.

2. there were perhaps 90 witnesses at the riders briefing that heard one of the organisers say it was OK to stop on track and I have a fucking video of a few riders doing just that.

3. I did see pillions on track on the 17th and on other days... ask around.... I'm pretty sure others noticed too. (I didn't see pillions on a KiwiTrack day yet. I don't know if they are banned and many may think there is no risk... I disagree.

4. Stunts appear to be tolerated (not explicitly prohibited) by MotoTT where as at KiwiTrack days they are explicitly prohibited as stated at the briefing. Again, some think this is an acceptable risk and it is tolerated.

I never said and would not say that MotoTT days are unsafe. There are issues though and I think I am correct in raising them in the perfectly legitimate cause of increased track day safety.. ...

So wind yer neck in Biggles... and stop slinging unjustified allegations about lying around..

[Biggles08]

Hang on a minute.. what you are saying is "un-fucking-acceptable"... to call me a liar you should have some fuckin evidence. What I said is absolutely true and was made in response to an issue raised by another poster about comparable safety between the firms. It was NOT meant as an attack on the safety record of MotoTT. From what I can see they have a similar accident rate but I think the risks are different.

All these points are true. How they affect safety depends on your point of view. Some may say its fine. Others may not. It won't stop me from riding a MotoTT day but I think these issues should be addressed... that is my opinion... and the 4 points mentioned are facts.

1. On the 17th january I saw two ambos turn up at about 12 noon. On a previous track day over a year ago I saw them turn up at a similar time. That time we were warned that no ambulances were available in the morning and sessions were allowed to continue.

2. there were perhaps 90 witnesses at the riders briefing that heard one of the organisers say it was OK to stop on track and I have a fucking video of a few riders doing just that.

3. I did see pillions on track on the 17th and on other days... ask around.... I'm pretty sure others noticed too. (I didn't see pillions on a KiwiTrack day yet. I don't know if they are banned and many may think there is no risk... I disagree.

4. Stunts appear to be tolerated (not explicitly prohibited) by MotoTT where as at KiwiTrack days they are explicitly prohibited as stated at the briefing. Again, some think this is an acceptable risk and it is tolerated.

I never said and would not say that MotoTT days are unsafe. There are issues though and I think I am correct in raising them in the perfectly legitimate cause of increased track day safety.. ...

So wind yer neck in Biggles... and stop slinging unjustified allegations about lying around..

I hesitate to respond to you Mort on the basis you are obviously a fuck knuckle but hey....can't stop myself.

Dates and times please...if you want to talk about facts....tell me exactly when MotoTT ran without qualified first aid at hand...17th Jan?????? 2006???? I think you will find the closest you could get was over two years ago AND there was in fact two other people on site that were fully qualified in administering first aid.....didn't know that huh??? maybe you should sort out your facts first...so I repeat myself BOLLOCKS to you!

Like I said, I have attended most of MotoTT track days all of 2008 and NEVER has it been stated at any of these meetings that it is OK to stop and 'help out' a mate....IN FACT...it has been stipulated EXCESSIVELY that it is NOT ok to stop on the track...EVER!.... If you have so called "evidence" of this occuring it is merely "evidence" that some dicks (mmm....I wonder if you can relate?) have chosen to ignore instructions...in which I'm sure they were harshly warned for after they came off the track. So once again BOLLOCKS to you!

Pillions are dangerous? So should we ban passengers on the road too? Tell me how you think 2-up in the slow/medium group is dangerous? How are people supposed to learn how to control a bike with a passenger in a safe environment...on the road huh??? Bollocks Bollocks and more Bollocks to you!

Stunts are tollerated?????...well until recently 'wheelies' were tollerated when riders were well away from other bikes on the track...but due to dicks (mmmmm....seems to be a re-occuring theme here Mort) once again not heeding instructions correctly, they have been banned from the track...."explicitly prohibited" actually, to use your own words. Ummmmmm BOLLOCKS!


So wind yer neck in Biggles... and stop slinging unjustified allegations about lying around..

Allegations herewith now justified....LIER.... I would suggest you stop pulling yourself Mort...it ain't going to get any bigger!:finger:

[enigma51]

Been at both and enjoy the motott events a lot more.

I stop going to the kiwi trackdays due to two back to back events with some huge crashes (6 -> more bikes taken out). Dont know if it was just a simple case of bad luck or bad management or maybe even both.


and mort and dont know where you got the its ok to stop on track thing. I have never heard of that.

What have seen at a Kiwi trackdays is the marshall jumping on to the track with a broom to cleanup something on the track while the session continues. Now that was different.

I would make a suggestion that you keep your comments to yourself mort as you not doing kiwi - trackdays or motott any favours by posting on here. If you have concern about safety or anything else i would suggest talking to the organisers.

[Mort]

Jesus Biggles... what a rant...

Maybe you didn't notice the ambos arrive late on 17/1/09. I did. Correct, the previous event was about 2 years ago when I observed this. (2008 was busy for me and I was avoiding 4 session days) . Nothing changed this time though. It has never been said to me that MotoTT have alternate emergency cover as a replacement for ambulances. I am left to assume that when there isn't an ambulance there is no qualified and equipped emergency cover. Do MotoTT provide this cover? Are they fully qualified and equipped to deal with track day type incidents ?

This is their statement on their website (http://www.motott.co.nz/faq.html) :

Q. Will medical help be available at the track?

A. Yes an ambulance and qualified staff will be stationed on-site for the whole day.


That, to me, means an ambulance with it's staff will be there "for the whole day". As a paying customer I think I have the right to expect the minimum medical cover they promise on their website. I also happen to think it is a necessity for an event of this type regardless.

On the subject of stopping on track. May be you weren't listening at the briefing with regard to stopping on track. I specifically did. At the time I thought it was the wrong thing to say at a briefing.

Maybe you didn't ride the session where there were several riders stopped on track and walking across I did...and here is the proof (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeK2Ok7i_nM). Unusual for several riders to stop if it was explicitly prohibited don't you think ? It's not unusal if it was explicitly permitted (which it was).

You may think pillions are an acceptable risk. I don't and that is just my view... just as you have yours. I didn't say it was dangerous, I think it's an avoidable risk. I really don't think a trackday is the place to practice pillion riding either.

If stunts are in fact banned by MotoTT then thats fine. Again...its an avoidable risk. On previous events they were not and they were not verbally prohibited at the briefing on the 17th. (Nor could I see reference on the website).

Before you explode in to another torrent of abuse Biggles, MotoTT days are not unsafe. These are perfectly legitimate concerns. Anything can happen on a track day as you know and it's all about mitigating and controlling risk. MotoTT do some things well.... Organisation and scrutineering bikes and kit for instance. But it is somewhat strange to put so much effort in to scrutineering and then let bikes out on track without an ambulance...

I'm just an objective trackday rider responding to a point here biggles. They are observations meant sincerely for constructive discussion to progress safety (not abuse) . I wonder if MotoTT, who appear to sponsor you, are entirely happy with the abusive way you have "discussed" points on their behalf.

[Biggles08]

Jesus Biggles... what a rant...

I can give as good as you Mort!



Maybe you didn't notice the ambos arrive late on 17/1/09. I did.

So Ambos arriving late means there is no medical trained staff there huh (by the way I doubt they did arrive late anyway but can't say as I was not there)? Dude...you are the one making 'false statements' with no 'proof' that you seemed so eager to get from me! I have in fact checked with MotoTT regarding whether emergency staff were present for the whole day on 17/1/09 and have been told they were....I would far rather take their word over yours considering the top form you have shown here! I challenge you to call them up and tell them they are lieing...go for it bro...BOLLOCKS!


Correct, the previous event was about 2 years ago when I observed this. (2008 was busy for me and I was avoiding 4 session days) . Nothing changed this time though. It has never been said to me that MotoTT have alternate emergency cover as a replacement for ambulances. I am left to assume that when there isn't an ambulance there is no qualified and equipped emergency cover. Do MotoTT provide this cover? Are they fully qualified and equipped to deal with track day type incidents ?

You ASSSSSSSume an awful lot Mort...get some facts before you slander a great organisation like MotoTT! Like I said, they always had suitably trained staff present before anyone went on the track and you saying they didn't IS A LIE! For a start....did you know everyone there that day??? Maybe, possibly, concievable there was someone there that was in fact there as the qualified first aid/medic...maybe?? Bollocks again to you my small minded man!



This is their statement on their website :


That, to me, means an ambulance with it's staff will be there "for the whole day". As a paying customer I think I have the right to expect the minimum medical cover they promise on their website. I also happen to think it is a necessity for an event of this type regardless.

And they do?! Just because you make assumptions on a topic does not make it fact...how about doing what Enigma suggested and take your concerns up with MotoTT directly....Oh, I know why because you know your full of shit!



On the subject of stopping on track. May be you weren't listening at the briefing with regard to stopping on track. I specifically did. At the time I thought it was the wrong thing to say at a briefing.

Lies Lies Lies...no one has ever said its safe to stop and 'help out a mate!' NEVER!



Maybe you didn't ride the session where there were several riders stopped on track and walking across I did...and here is the proof . Unusual for several riders to stop if it was explicitly prohibited don't you think ? It's not unusal if it was explicitly permitted (which it was).

Like I said....ignoring the fact that one of those riders in your video "proof" was in fact one of the MotoTT crew (yes thats right, he stopped to help out the downed rider as he always carries a walkie talkie while he is riding on the track for this exact reson) AND, ignoring the fact that the chequered flag had already been waved and the session was ended and you were on your way into the pits...this "proves" nothing with regards to what MotoTT regulations are...I will spell it out to you dumbarse..."IT IS NEVER OK TO STOP ON THE TRACK TO HELP OUT YOUR MATES!" and it is a rule MotoTT enforce vigorously!



You may think pillions are an acceptable risk. I don't and that is just my view... just as you have yours. I didn't say it was dangerous, I think it's an avoidable risk. I really don't think a trackday is the place to practice pillion riding either.

Well at this point I see little value to the human race on 'your opinion' as you have clearly shown in this thread that it is based on very little in the way of grey matter...so I shall move on.



If stunts are in fact banned by MotoTT then that's fine. Again...its an avoidable risk. On previous events they were not and they were not verbally prohibited at the briefing on the 17th. (Nor could I see reference on the website).

Well they are banned because of people not being able to do them safely away from other riders. I don't stunt/wheelie myself, but I know that a few track day guys are upset at this new rule as they want to practice their wheelies etc but now have no where to do so. If it was done in a responsible manner I wouldn't have a problem with it personally...but hey, I'm not the one making the rules.



Before you explode in to another torrent of abuse Biggles, MotoTT days are not unsafe. These are perfectly legitimate concerns.

No they are not they are a bunch of LIES!


Anything can happen on a track day as you know and it's all about mitigating and controlling risk. MotoTT do some things well.... Organisation and scrutineering bikes and kit for instance. But it is somewhat strange to put so much effort in to scrutineering and then let bikes out on track without an ambulance...

If you really had a concern about this (inaccurate assumption) then take it up with MotoTT directly at the time! I know why you didn't though...because it never happened that's why!



I'm just an objective trackday rider responding to a point here biggles. They are observations meant sincerely for constructive discussion to progress safety (not abuse) .

You are a dumbfuck who is hell bent on lies Mort! I am merely saying what everyone else who is reading this thread is thinking...You need to grow the fuck up and if your really all that concerned about how MotoTT run their days go and tell them directly...or piss off, I'm pretty sure you won't be missed!


I wonder if MotoTT, who appear to sponsor you, are entirely happy with the abusive way you have "discussed" points on their behalf.

HA! have you ever heard the term "assumptions are the mother of all fuckups!" Well my small minded dipshit...in this case you are the fuckup!

I have no association with MotoTT in any form apart from thinking they are a awesome bunch of people who have put more into motorcycling than anyone else I know. They have been the platform for me to progress my riding to the level where I can go racing...for this I give homage to them and include their stickers on my bike and my signature...I want to that's all.

I would love to meet you someday Mort so I could tell all this to your face...I'm not some shit stirring, lie spreading kiwibiker who sits behind his computer all day...I actually get out and do it...so next time your at a track day, come look for me...Marcus (Biggles08), racebike #808...I'll tell you your a dumbfuck to your face!

[Mort]

You should go to anger management... you have issues.

MotoTT have run sessions without ambo cover in the past (as you have confirmed) and on the 17th I did see the ambos enter the circuit and park up at about 12 noon. Unless they were parked somewhere else on the circuit in the morning they must have just arrived. I know what I saw.

At this point I don't accept that there is a credible and fully equipped alternative to ambulances either provided by MotoTT or amongst the site staff or even the riders. Attendant persons being qualified in first aid is not what I am talking about here. I mean fully equipped ambulances with trained staff capable of delivering an assured standard of emergency aid to a possibly seriously injured rider on the scene with a few minutes.

On the subject of stopping on track... I know what I heard and I know what happened as a result. Whether you choose to believe that I really don't care one bit. Every one agrees it's wrong to stop on the track. How you can tell from that video that one of the riders was a marshall I don't know... I can't nor was I even aware of his presence (which surely I should be). What I did see was at least 4 riders stop.... and the chequered flag came out AFTER I went through....as if that matters.

One thing is clear from this discussion Biggles. You seem incapable of a fair minded discussion without resorting to insult and abuse and threat. If I do see you at a track day I won't be going anywhere near you. You need to be avoided.

[Morcs]

Moto TT is good with 4 groups. That way it keeps squids out of group 1.

And you get more than enough tracktime. If you have enough energy to do every single session (including the ones still running after half the people have left) then you obviously arent riding hard enough and may as well go on the road where you can nana all day, for free.

[enigma51]

As hard as it is to get insurance for trackdays do you really think your helping by bad mouthing organisers?

[Quasievil]

At MotoTT , I have seen :
Ambulances turning up at 12 - I have seen on two occasions that they run sessions without ambulances - that is unacceptable to my mind
Stating it is OK (at the riders briefing) for riders to stop on the track and help a fallen rider. I have video of riders parked up and running across the main straight... thats's pretty bad.
Pillions on track - that is asking for it
Stunts... unnecessary risk



They swap the Ambos at lunch time bro, I was there and have been to nearly every one of the trackdays last year incl the 17/1/09 and honestly I cant recall any of what youre saying, apart from a pillion, but they are in a suitable group.

Ive been to all the others and I prefer Motott by far

Also more track time aint always a good thing, puts more pressure on the bike and the rider, to much and then bins happen, 4 x 20 mins is plenty enough.

Lastly you can get a dog up ya in relation to the Motard behaviour thing lol, it works in both directions and we have as much right as you do the track even if we do upset your "Im like Rossi moments of glory"
Crap behaviour on both sides, so dont start segregating Motard like so many sportsbike riders seem to these days

[Dooly]

What a great read this has been.:laugh:

On a positive note I think, it will be my first time on the track at Taupo this Friday.
Looking forward to it.

Hope I dont get in the way of all the hotshots, but I'm only in GP3.:niceone:

Looks like it will be a KB gathering.

[Morcs]

Mort I remember you saying about british trackdays, they easily cost in excess of 500 quid. ($1,200)

Considering a trackday in taupo, with gas and accomodation from auckland and dinner can all be done for $300, you should be more than content with what we get for our money.

[FROSTY]

Just to clear a couple of points up.
1) No ambo no bikes on track simple /clearcut. On the day in question the ambo was there but it was medical personel new to the MotoTT normal placement and the ambo moved at about lunchtime when asked to by motoTT staff.
2)It is definitely a part of MotoTT riders briefing that you do NOT stop on track to help a mate EVER.
The session in question there were 3 Moto TT Lines bikes on the track--rolling marshalls if you like. THEY were the people who stopped to asess the downed rider.(NO they were not wearing their vests as newbees had them on) The SAFEST/fastest way to get to A DOWNED rider is on a bike. Have a look at the "incriminating" pictures and you will see an RT hanging off off one of them.

[prettybillie]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=93199

This link seems to have to vote of the masses..........:girlfight:

[Biggles08]

You should go to anger management... you have issues.

You should go to a mental institute where you will have an audience that will tolerate dumb-arses!



MotoTT have run sessions without ambo cover in the past (as you have confirmed) and on the 17th I did see the ambos enter the circuit and park up at about 12 noon. Unless they were parked somewhere else on the circuit in the morning they must have just arrived. I know what I saw.

LIER! keep telling lies and I will keep calling you a lier!



At this point I don't accept that there is a credible and fully equipped alternative to ambulances either provided by MotoTT or amongst the site staff or even the riders. Attendant persons being qualified in first aid is not what I am talking about here. I mean fully equipped ambulances with trained staff capable of delivering an assured standard of emergency aid to a possibly seriously injured rider on the scene with a few minutes.

Well I'm sure if you have an accident at a track day we will all be quite happy to finish the session and let you lie in pain on the side of the track....even if there is trained personal availiable....yeah right....Bollocks to you!



On the subject of stopping on track... I know what I heard and I know what happened as a result. Whether you choose to believe that I really don't care one bit. Every one agrees it's wrong to stop on the track. How you can tell from that video that one of the riders was a marshall I don't know... I can't nor was I even aware of his presence (which surely I should be). What I did see was at least 4 riders stop.... and the chequered flag came out AFTER I went through....as if that matters.

Well unlike you, I do care that you are full of shit and slandering a great organization like MotoTT....and as far as you needing to know exactly what personal is available and where they are every second your at a MotoTT day....BOLLOCKS again!


One thing is clear from this discussion Biggles. You seem incapable of a fair minded discussion without resorting to insult and abuse and threat. If I do see you at a track day I won't be going anywhere near you. You need to be avoided.

You are right about that Mort....one thing is completely clear cut from this discussion......its just you got it wrong as to what it is....It clear cut that you really have no place at MotoTT days and that is simply because your a twat with no idea of what your talking about. As for avoiding me its no skin off my nose...I'm happy to call you a twat here or to your face! :finger:

[Mort]

thanks for the reasoned responses..

If the ambos are parked elsewhere then that explains that. On the previous event mentioned, some sessions were run without cover. Lets hope that is history. Thanks for the clarification Quasi and Frosty.... that was all that was needed ... without the hysterics.

If it was only marshalls stopping that time (which was group 2 BTW) then fair enough. But I still maintain that the briefing guy said something to the effect "if you do stop to help a mate, park well out of the way"... which they did. and yes I totally agree... rolling marshalls are the fastest way to get to a down rider.

Morcs.. yes, British trackdays do cost a lot more than here... From about $320 for somewhere like Cadwell through to about $720 for the full track at Brands (which is a rip off)... add to that fuel which is near twice the price and accommodation....so we do very well here for cost that is for sure. One further comparison though... at UK trackdays you don't pay for garages (which I see have come down a lot in price at Taupo and is much more acceptable) and every trackday (that I know of) runs at least 6 sessions in a 3 group x 20 minute format.

Here's a link to the UK trackday calendar for anyone interested http://www.uktrackdays.co.uk/. The full season isn't booked yet though...still winter there. During summer (Mid APR to End Sept) there is a bike trackday almost every day of the week at least one or more circuit within the same driving distance as Auckland to Taupo. Of course the market is much bigger but it shows the huge demand that have been generated by the Trackday firms. Most of these events are fully booked weeks and months in advance.

.... which leads me back to the thread subject. You get more tracktime in a 3 group format. We all have a choice but I'd like to see more 3 group track days. Hopefully the trackday market will expand to accomodate every riders needs.

[Tony.OK]

With the current number of ppl doing trackdays the 3 group format in my view just doesn't cater for the different levels of ability, and also puts more ppl on the track at any given time. That to me makes it more dangerous, particularly on Taupo's main straight where the speed diff is so vast.

If you really want tracktime try doing a test day.

[FROSTY]

An interesting factiod. New Zealand is a small place.
Motorcyclists in NZ are an even smaller group. An even smaller group still are those wishing to stick their necks on the line and organise trackdays.
To be seen winging whining and generally being a pain in the ass to this very very small group can possibly result in a person beeing unwelcolm at events organised by these people.
Something to concider.

[Morcs]

Another point id like to make, shorter sessions are much safer.

I find myself coming into the bits a few laps before the end of a moto tt sessions quite often as my arms feel like falling off.

with relatively intense riding, the longer you go, the more you tire, the more your concerntration lapses, and ultimately, more prone to fucking it up.

[Biggles08]

Another point id like to make, shorter sessions are much safer.

I find myself coming into the bits a few laps before the end of a moto tt sessions quite often as my arms feel like falling off.

with relatively intense riding, the longer you go, the more you tire, the more your concerntration lapses, and ultimately, more prone to fucking it up.
Aww come on Morcs.....you need to take some viagra and HTFU :clap: hehe.

Mort....I have been very vocal about the level of your intelligence and from what I have read here I think I am justified is thinking so. I will not let idiots speel on about shit that is not true and you caught the blunt of that fair square in the forehead. I wish you would crawl back into whatever hole you came out of and I would be very happy never to have anything more to do with you. In saying that, I shouldn't have called you names (justified or otherwise) and I will apologies to you for that.... I should let others realize that for themselves.:tugger:

[Morcs]

Aww come on Morcs.....you need to take some viagra and HTFU :clap: hehe.

Mort....I have been very vocal about the level of your intelligence and from what I have read here I think I am justified is thinking so. I will not let idiots speel on about shit that is not true and you caught the blunt of that fair square in the forehead. I wish you would crawl back into whatever hole you came out of and I would be very happy never to have anything more to do with you. In saying that, I shouldn't have called you names (justified or otherwise) and I will apologies to you for that.... I should let others realize that for themselves.:tugger:

I think you and Mort need to settle this on the track. You on a 600, him on a thousand - it 'appears' fair :2thumbsup

[BIGBOSSMAN]

You should go to anger management... you have issues.


Yes, he's never been the same since having a towball inserted in his anus :shake:

[Biggles08]

I think you and Mort need to settle this on the track. You on a 600, him on a thousand - it 'appears' fair :2thumbsup

ha...as long as they have at least 4 Ambos there parked where Mort can see them...otherwise it may 'appear' unsafe. :yes:

[Mort]

ha...as long as they have at least 4 Ambos there parked where Mort can see them...otherwise it may 'appear' unsafe. :yes:

I'll settle for 2 thanks... just so long as they are there and everyone knows they are there.... and thanks for the apology.... its good to see you back on your medication.

And for the record, I will discuss safety and track day format issues any time I fucking like. This is an open public forum. If I see issues I will raise them and I will discuss them. It is not whining and whinging and if some people don't know the difference then that is their problem. I don't see why I should be personally abused and threatened because I'm willing to discuss these things nor should I be excluded from raising issues because I don't happen to run my own track day company. I don't believe in "put up or shut up". We all have a right to discuss.

It is meant as a constructive discussion for the good of all including and especially the organiser who may actually value customer feedback (good, bad or otherwise). I support all the trackday organisers in NZ and even in the past 2 years I have seen really good improvements made by these hard working people... long may it continue.

[Morcs]

I'll settle for 2 thanks... just so long as they are there and everyone knows they are there.... and thanks for the apology.... its good to see you back on your medication.

And for the record, I will discuss safety and track day format issues any time I fucking like. This is an open public forum. If I see issues I will raise them and I will discuss them. It is not whining and whinging and if some people don't know the difference then that is their problem. I don't see why I should be personally abused and threatened because I'm willing to discuss these things nor should I be excluded from raising issues because I don't happen to run my own track day company. I don't believe in "put up or shut up". We all have a right to discuss.

It is meant as a constructive discussion for the good of all including and especially the organiser who may actually value customer feedback (good, bad or otherwise). I support all the trackday organisers in NZ and even in the past 2 years I have seen really good improvements made by these hard working people... long may it continue.

But if its slander against a great organisation, and they may lose business for it, thats just not on.

If you want to give customer feedback, contact them direct, dont smear your opinion all over a public forum. Yes it may be a public forum, doesnt mean it isnt slander.

[Biggles08]

I'll settle for 2 thanks... just so long as they are there and everyone knows they are there.... and thanks for the apology.... its good to see you back on your medication.

And for the record, I will discuss safety and track day format issues any time I fucking like. This is an open public forum. If I see issues I will raise them and I will discuss them. It is not whining and whinging and if some people don't know the difference then that is their problem. I don't see why I should be personally abused and threatened because I'm willing to discuss these things nor should I be excluded from raising issues because I don't happen to run my own track day company. I don't believe in "put up or shut up". We all have a right to discuss.

It is meant as a constructive discussion for the good of all including and especially the organiser who may actually value customer feedback (good, bad or otherwise). I support all the trackday organisers in NZ and even in the past 2 years I have seen really good improvements made by these hard working people... long may it continue.

Well you see Mort, MotoTT is one of the original Companies to trail blaze this whole scenario for the rest of the Track day companies that are available today....you seem to forget that wee fact. MotoTT have done SOOOOO much good for the riding community and your head appears to be so far up your own arse that you can't see this. Fair enough if you were concerned about no medical staff...but find out first before you state 'fact' when in 'fact' what you said was slander....if you had asked them about it at the time...or even afterwards you would have realized they were always there.

I have no issues with you prefering 3 groups as opposed to 4 groups and that is a reasonable topic to discuss...but when you inaccurately slander a great organization over important things like safety...you need to be put back in your place!

[Mort]

Well you see Mort, MotoTT is one of the original Companies to trail blaze this whole scenario for the rest of the Track day companies that are available today....you seem to forget that wee fact. MotoTT have done SOOOOO much good for the riding community and your head appears to be so far up your own arse that you can't see this. Fair enough if you were concerned about no medical staff...but find out first before you state 'fact' when in 'fact' what you said was slander....if you had asked them about it at the time...or even afterwards you would have realized they were always there.

I have no issues with you prefering 3 groups as opposed to 4 groups and that is a reasonable topic to discuss...but when you inaccurately slander a great organization over important things like safety...you need to be put back in your place!


I think it's a bit rich YOU writing about slander to me. I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word then read your posts directed at me.

At events in the past MotoTT HAVE run sessions without medical cover. You even said so yourself. That is not slander or a lie. It is a fact.

On the 17th Jan. Ambulances were nowhere to be seen in the morning. I observed them enter the circuit at 12 noon. That is not slander or a lie. It's a fact. I say they were not on the circuit. Others say they were parked elsewhere or were changing shifts. I am prepared to accept that as a POSSIBLE explaination for the fact that they were not there where they normally are and were seen to enter the circuit at 12 noon. That is not a lie. It is not slander. It a fact and a possible explaination for the circumstance.

On the 17th, I did hear the briefing guy state it was OK to stop on circuit and several riders did later. That is not slander or a lie. It's a fact. Its has been said that some of these riders ( 1 of the 4 or 3 of the 4) were marshalls. I can accept that as a possible explaination. But what I have said IS NOT A LIE or slander. It is a fact.

Pillions are permitted. Fact

Stunts have been allowed but were not explicitly prohibited on the 17th verbally or in writing. Fact. I saw no evidence of them being prohibited.... but I saw no stunts on the 17th either. That is not slander or a lie. It's a fact.

The definition of slander is more or less what Biggles has been saying about me on multiple posts. Calling someone a liar when they are not for instance.
You went to great lengths to question and denigrate my intelligence , my motives and honesty in writing in a public place. That is the true definition of slander if ever I saw it. I have never done this with MotoTT. I have stated my observations and accepted explainations as a reasonable person would.

Here's another observation Biggles. You clearly do not have the cognative powers to understand a word I am saying. You demonstrate no abilities of comprehension or understanding. Your responses must come from that part of your brain that was last used by cavemen and evidently you give every appearance of being a direct male-line decendant of some sort of long extinct ape. You would appear to have similar mental faculties and abilities when you react to some sort of percieved threat to your belief system. Agression, threats, abuse. You find it impossible to seperate me raising legitimate discussion points about safety from your personal belief that MotoTT are sainted angels placed on gods earth run track days for the faithful and can do no wrong whatsoever.

What I said stands. I have every right to raise safety points for discussion perceived or otherwise and I am totally willing to accept explainations or even corrections. What is unacceptable is the slander coming my way from you.

Now go back to your cave and shut the fuck up.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

Here's another observation Biggles. You clearly do not have the cognative powers to understand a word I am saying. You demonstrate no abilities of comprehension or understanding. Your responses must come from that part of your brain that was last used by cavemen and evidently you give every appearance of being a direct male-line decendant of some sort of long extinct ape.

Interestingly, he is strikingly similar in appearance and mentality to a Gibbon but appears to be larger; more akin in size to a Barbary Ape. Because of the horrific accident his asshole looks very similar to a Baboon in heat (picture attached).


Would you like to know more?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Macaque

[FROSTY]

Well you see Mort, MotoTT is one of the original Companies to trail blaze this whole scenario for the rest of the Track day companies that are available today

Hey um mate sorry to argue a point here but actually it was the Kiwibiker trackdays that blazed the trail.
When I started NOONE was running trackdays like we know them today.
The best was the Kiwi Rider mag trackdays which were bloody good but very limited flaggies
The guys from MotoTT copied my format which is fantastic.

[Morcs]

Hey um mate sorry to argue a point here but actually it was the Kiwibiker trackdays that blazed the trail.
When I started NOONE was running trackdays like we know them today.
The best was the Kiwi Rider mag trackdays which were bloody good but very limited flaggies
The guys from MotoTT copied my format which is fantastic.

Tony, maybe you should tell Mort just how difficult it is to organise and run a trackday. He might have some appreciation then.

[FROSTY]

Tony, maybe you should tell Mort just how difficult it is to organise and run a trackday. He might have some appreciation then.
Why?? --seriously mate it aint worth the breath.
Dya mean the sleepless nights worrying. Dya mean the months of organising and chasing up .
Dya mean the constant fear you've forgotten "something " that might mean someone miught get hurt.
Or is it the feeling of "why do I bother?" when a few decide to fuck it up for the many.
No for definite the hardest thing is when you are doing something for pure love of the sport and get trashed by someone that has NO apreciation of how delicate the track day scene is in NZ and how easilly people like insurers can pull their support.

[Dooly]

Hey Biggles & Morc will you guys be at Taupo on Friday.
I'd sure like to watch you 2 get together.........:yes::laugh::chase::niceone:

[Mort]

Tony, maybe you should tell Mort just how difficult it is to organise and run a trackday. He might have some appreciation then.

If you were the first then good on you Frosty and many here hope to see you back soon.

Morcs - Are you suggesting I should show my appreciation by staying silent about safety issues ? I "appreciate" track day organisers for all their hard work and dedication. Don't confuse the issue with sentiment. I say again... and for the final time.... This is not about slagging off (or slandering) MotoTT. It is about discussing safety issues... well actually I started by opening a discussion on 3 or 4 group events and which was better.

[Morcs]

Hey Biggles & Morc will you guys be at Taupo on Friday.
I'd sure like to watch you 2 get together.........:yes::laugh::chase::niceone:

you mean Morcs or Mort?

Ill be there on friday.

[nallac]

well actually I started by opening a discussion on 3 or 4 group events and which was better.


I think i remember something like that before all the catfights:bash:

[Dooly]

you mean Morcs or Mort?

Ill be there on friday.

Umm, one of them I guess, Mort. Morcs/Mort, damn, so close, I'm confused.
The 2 fighting!!!
Ok see ya there, we're garage 9, Triumph zone with Sinfull, and I think Gubb.:niceone:

[BIGBOSSMAN]

Mort is quite welcome to have his opinion on this, personally I think both Trackday companies have done a pretty good job - esp as it is still a fledgling industry here.
Still, improvements can be made and should be able to be discussed.
Ahem, like gentlemen my diminutive and feisty simian friend...:jerry:

[Biggles08]

I think it's a bit rich YOU writing about slander to me. I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word then read your posts directed at me.

At events in the past MotoTT HAVE run sessions without medical cover. You even said so yourself. That is not slander or a lie. It is a fact.

On the 17th Jan. Ambulances were nowhere to be seen in the morning. I observed them enter the circuit at 12 noon. That is not slander or a lie. It's a fact. I say they were not on the circuit. Others say they were parked elsewhere or were changing shifts. I am prepared to accept that as a POSSIBLE explaination for the fact that they were not there where they normally are and were seen to enter the circuit at 12 noon. That is not a lie. It is not slander. It a fact and a possible explaination for the circumstance.

On the 17th, I did hear the briefing guy state it was OK to stop on circuit and several riders did later. That is not slander or a lie. It's a fact. Its has been said that some of these riders ( 1 of the 4 or 3 of the 4) were marshalls. I can accept that as a possible explaination. But what I have said IS NOT A LIE or slander. It is a fact.

Pillions are permitted. Fact

Stunts have been allowed but were not explicitly prohibited on the 17th verbally or in writing. Fact. I saw no evidence of them being prohibited.... but I saw no stunts on the 17th either. That is not slander or a lie. It's a fact.

The definition of slander is more or less what Biggles has been saying about me on multiple posts. Calling someone a liar when they are not for instance.
You went to great lengths to question and denigrate my intelligence , my motives and honesty in writing in a public place. That is the true definition of slander if ever I saw it. I have never done this with MotoTT. I have stated my observations and accepted explainations as a reasonable person would.

Here's another observation Biggles. You clearly do not have the cognative powers to understand a word I am saying. You demonstrate no abilities of comprehension or understanding. Your responses must come from that part of your brain that was last used by cavemen and evidently you give every appearance of being a direct male-line decendant of some sort of long extinct ape. You would appear to have similar mental faculties and abilities when you react to some sort of percieved threat to your belief system. Agression, threats, abuse. You find it impossible to seperate me raising legitimate discussion points about safety from your personal belief that MotoTT are sainted angels placed on gods earth run track days for the faithful and can do no wrong whatsoever.

What I said stands. I have every right to raise safety points for discussion perceived or otherwise and I am totally willing to accept explainations or even corrections. What is unacceptable is the slander coming my way from you.

Now go back to your cave and shut the fuck up.


Ahhhhh...Blaaaaaaa fucking blaaaaaaa blaaaaaa.....***yawn***

So I have to "shut the fuck up" but you can express your bullshit freely? Is this the free speech that your keen to promote here? Its about now I wish I was wearing the t-shirt that said "I see dumb people!"

Like I said I should not have called you names. I really have no need to actually...I will let you 'express' your stupidity here for all to decide on for themselves...way you go...feel free to show everyone here how much more intelligent you are than me the caveman!:clap::banana:

[Biggles08]

you mean Morcs or Mort?

Ill be there on friday.

you scared morcs??? :2guns:

I won't be unfortunately....alas work calls!

[Biggles08]

Mort is quite welcome to have his opinion on this, personally I think both Trackday companies have done a pretty good job - esp as it is still a fledgling industry here.
Still, improvements can be made and should be able to be discussed.
Ahem, like gentlemen my diminutive and feisty simian friend...:jerry:


**grunt**....**snort***....nah get fucked! (I say as I drag my woman thingie back into my cave)

[BIGBOSSMAN]

**grunt**....**snort***....nah get fucked! (I say as I drag my woman thingie back into my cave)

It is patently obvious to me: 5 groups should be the norm.
A special group must be created for those gheys who have been sodomized by bulbous lumps of chromium plated steel - namely towballs.
You'd be the fastest asshole out there...

[Biggles08]

It is patently obvious to me: 5 groups should be the norm.
A special group must be created for those gheys who have been sodomized by bulbous lumps of chromium plated steel - namely towballs.
You'd be the fastest asshole out there...

if that was the criteria I'm pretty sure I would be the only one out there! What is it with you BBM??? You just can't seem to stay on topic.:bleh:

[Morcs]

you scared morcs??? :2guns:

I won't be unfortunately....alas work calls!

Scared of who? I like being given the learn :niceone:

[westie]

Seeing as we're talking track days. Fark it was awesome yesterday at the moto tt track day!!!
Dont have to worry about group 3 and 4 if ya in group one so htfu and ride harder!

[hammerman]

3 groups better than 4 no question.

[DaddyK]

Pillions are permitted. Fact.

Ah yes. HAve been from day one. We stared in group 4 and worked our way up to group 2. We were asked to go there because we can run decent lines. We have the speed. We are fair and accept when things can get a bit harry. We may be the only ones who do it regularly but they are out there in 3 and 4.
Im "that" pillion. You know... I help MOttTT with events at times. Slow race stuff etc. I, even allowed in group 2. Just torques yer arse eh? Im the only one allowed in 2 that I know of but and I have been doing ot for 16 months with a slight cold tire issue on corner 2.

. But by being an annoying pillion who probubly doesnt even need gear because gravity wont effect me the same as the driverand I have no idea what Im doing out there I should be banned. This is a good buzz with good people behind it.

Your wrong,, so WRONG. I do know what Im doing out there, so your "Its just asking for trouble" is stupid. It track day. Not a race day anyway. I am allowed out in both MottTT and Redline group 2 and I bet my husband can blow your socks off on 1st. Heck, you probubly got smoked by a pillion and cant deal with it. So the risk is your ego. Grow up. You state obviously negative shite u create and act as if you are doing us all a favor. I can t wait to see fall of.

Save ur deep thoughts. No one cares. No one following you. You sound like your riding isnt where your ego needs it to be and it's just everyone elses fault because they arent doing this fairly for you. This thinly disguised bitch session shows what a wanker you are., and of course of your own inadequecies. You really must not get picked ro play a sport too often.

Wendy Bennett- extreme pillion, amd loving it. ZX10 time 2.

[Mort]

I've thought about what you have said Wendy. You are right and I am wrong and I apologise. Whilst I don't agree a track day is a place to practice pillion riding, I can recall that there was no problem whatsoever with your riding (or your husband for that matter). Personally, when I first saw pillions on a track day I thought it perhaps hazardous. But, if they know what they are doing (which you pair do) , then fair enough... and good on you for giving it a go. I am sorry.

[koba]

Buy a car Mort.
Or just sit at home in a cardboard box and make broom-broom noises.

If you went out on the track with no am bo ul lance there you shouldn't be whinging about it.

You don't fit in very well here...

[koba]

This is an open public forum. If I see issues I will raise them and I will discuss them.

It is meant as a constructive discussion for the good of all including and especially the organiser who may actually value customer feedback (good, bad or otherwise).

Make sure you whinge to directly to them too, aye :niceone:

[Mort]

another cage rattled then

[jrandom]

Wendy Bennett- extreme pillion, amd loving it.

:Punk:

Amen, you tell 'em, Wendy!

Mort, why don't you just flag these terribly-flawed trackdays that bother you so much, and do some Clubmans racing? PMCC have the final round of their summer series at the full Taupo track on 5 April.

If you can do 1:45s or better on that mighty thousand-cc beast of yours you should find plenty of peeps to play with on the grid.

[DaddyK]

I've thought about what you have said Wendy. You are right and I am wrong and I apologise. Whilst I don't agree a track day is a place to practice pillion riding, I can recall that there was no problem whatsoever with your riding (or your husband for that matter). Personally, when I first saw pillions on a track day I thought it perhaps hazardous. But, if they know what they are doing (which you pair do) , then fair enough... and good on you for giving it a go. I am sorry.

Thanks for that.

Wendy

[Mort]

:Punk:


Mort, why don't you just flag these terribly-flawed trackdays that bother you so much..

Ha.... Don't blow it out of proportion.... I enjoy trackdays and have done heaps over the past 10 years or so.... for me its the best way to get the best out of your riding.... think I'm a bit old for starting racing.... :mobile:

[Biggles08]

I've thought about what you have said Wendy. You are right and I am wrong and I apologise. Whilst I don't agree a track day is a place to practice pillion riding, I can recall that there was no problem whatsoever with your riding (or your husband for that matter). Personally, when I first saw pillions on a track day I thought it perhaps hazardous. But, if they know what they are doing (which you pair do) , then fair enough... and good on you for giving it a go. I am sorry.

And the truth slowly appears from behind the dark clouds of Morts smokescreen. Well said Mort......now have a wee think again about the accusations you made about MotoTT and their safety procedures (Ambos etc)...then maybe we can all get back to talking about your original question which was 3 groups vs 4 groups (which I might add is a worthwhile discussion).

[Mort]

yep.... I've had a "wee think" and I have absolutely nothing to add on those points but would be glad to hear your opnions on the original subject of 3 or 4 groups

[sinfull]

think I'm a bit old for starting racing.... :mobile:
Oi ! What are you saying here ? Hahaha Bowls can wait brotha !

[Mort]

Oi ! What are you saying here ? Hahaha Bowls can wait brotha !

Oh god.... wrong again !!!!

But you told me you were 23 Bill..... :mobile:

[sinfull]

Oh god.... wrong again !!!!

But you told me you were 23 Bill..... :mobile:

Positive affermations ! Or is that denial ? Haha whichever, but i know i feel 23 when i go out for the first session at the track and 60 somefuckinthing when i wake up the next day lol !

[Biggles08]

yep.... I've had a "wee think" and I have absolutely nothing to add on those points but would be glad to hear your opnions on the original subject of 3 or 4 groups


Well funny enough I have just recently done a kiwi track day at taupo which was a 3 group day and I actually think on this particular day I got less time on the track!? Granted it was due to unforseen circumstances such as an ambulance going on the track to pick up a guy that when I rode past before leaving the track was standing beside his bike....that was a bit weird?! I think what happened was he lay beside his bike for a while before getting up which alerted the ambo boys (or girls) to go out....and when they had already left the pit area he got up...so they were commited to going out.

Then after lining up on the dummy grid waiting to go back out a biker was still screaming around the track all by himself not coming in! Apparently the last flag marshall had comms problems and was waving a yellow flag instead of a red one so the biker kept going round!!!! lol...must have wondered where everyone had gone?!?!

So we were waiting in on the dummy grid for a good 15 minutes while they sorted that out.

I'm a fan of 4 groups personally just because when you only have 3 groups you get a lot of 'slower' riders in the 'fast' group which tend to get stroppy when you overtake them at a great rate of knots. One guy got all stroppy with my mate and me for overtaking him after a red flag had been shown (the incident refered to above)...yes we shouldn't have but we were miles away from the incident AND miles away from him AND going very slow...still, we shouldn't have but he was one of these 'slower' riders in the fast group I'm refering to.

Other than that I had a great time at Steves Track day and will certainly do some more :niceone:

My 2c worth anyway.

[Mort]

well... Merde happens as they say..... how was the wet resin ?

[CHOPPA]

I reckon in the interest of safty there should be a approx 115% rule in each group....

Also passing on the inside is safer then passing people round the outside i think.

3 groups or 4 doesnt really bother me, im at a track day to ride with mates other wise id go to a test day where i can ride all day for $80

[Mort]

what do you mean by 115% rule ?

Agree on the inside passing rule if it is done with a clear speed advantage...

[sinfull]

I reckon in the interest of safty there should be a approx 115% rule in each group....

Also passing on the inside is safer then passing people round the outside i think.

3 groups or 4 doesnt really bother me, im at a track day to ride with mates other wise id go to a test day where i can ride all day for $80


what do you mean by 115% rule ?

Agree on the inside passing rule if it is done with a clear speed advantage...
A shut off point where your lap time won't allow ya in that group worked on averages of all the rider times ! As used in the nats quallifying for example !
Wouldn't work unfortunately (would be a great guage for ppl to figure what group they should be in at trackdays) but it's a stipulation of the insurance companies that the trackday co. enforce a no timing devices rule !
Don't see the point really, as if someone is timing themselves, it's because they're working to reduce lap times for competition purposes (most cases that is), where they're gonna lose their insurance anyway !

[FROSTY]

I reckon in the interest of safty there should be a approx 115% rule in each group....
Dude Ive spent the last 5 years trying to work out a formula that addresses EXACTLY that issue. Quite honestly I still haven't
Heres the problem mate--And I used to see it all the time.
A guys out there on his gixzxr1 thou for example and with the two straights and the big sweeper hes able to do say 1.50 round taupo.
Trouble is hes holding up the poor sod outriding him in all the corners on his old VFR400 --who on a clean lap can only do 1.50 because he's slower on the straights.
This is where Im hoping specialty trackdays might fit into the existing scene.

[Cajun]

115% isn't very good rule to blanket across whole of trackdays, what about people who first time, etc they gonna be alot slower than everone else, might be a guide/idea for group 1 and 2, but other groups should be who wants to enter.

[Mort]

I think most people who've done a few trackdays know more or less what group they should be in. Basically if you are passing every one on the track you should move up... if you pass no one you should move down. It should therefore average out.

I like the idea of a one or two group trackday for a few reasons.


It gives as much tracktime as you want or need.
Regardless of what some may say - it can be made affordable.
It gives experienced riders time to focus on bike set up or technique etc
It can give less experienced riders what they need - more track time.


I hope this works...

[westie]

Mort you should start up your own track days and see who likes/comes to them, using the methods you want.
I wouldn't want to ride in two groups where every corner you could get taken out by a noob or squid. Riders of similar ability should ride together eg race fast, fast, medium, slow. Its proven to work well and cuts down frustration for faster riders.

[koba]

Its proven to work well and cuts down frustration or faster riders.

and slower ones too!

[DEATH_INC.]

Dude Ive spent the last 5 years trying to work out a formula that addresses EXACTLY that issue. Quite honestly I still haven't
Heres the problem mate--And I used to see it all the time.
A guys out there on a ZX10r for example and with the two straights and the big sweeper hes able to do say 1.50 round taupo.
Trouble is hes holding up the poor sod outriding him in all the corners on his old VFR400 --who on a clean lap can only do 1.50 because he's slower on the straights.
This is where Im hoping specialty trackdays might fit into the existing scene.

More the problem of being able to do low 1.40's on a clear track but being held up by the clown on the thou who's only doing 1.50's, but blasts down the straights then hold ya up around the good bits....and ya can't stuff it up the inside of him cause of the rules, or risk going outside cause he can't hold lines either and will run ya off the track....more common of a problem than you think.....BUT how do you fix it? I don't know....
Back to the original question, I prefer the 3 groups with longer sessions....

[FROSTY]

and slower ones too!
Dude apsolutely no question there. Given theres no prizes for most laps etc the guy on the Thou for example isnt doing anything wrong or dangerous as such.
Again its reall really hard to find a formula that works.
One suggestion I always made to "frustrated" riders is to avoid the object of your frustrations.
I spent a bit of time saying to X hey would you mind holding up a couple of seconds and let Y go out in front etc

[sinfull]

I think most people who've done a few trackdays know more or less what group they should be in. Basically if you are passing every one on the track you should move up... if you pass no one you should move down. It should therefore average out.

I like the idea of a one or two group trackday for a few reasons.


It gives as much tracktime as you want or need.
Regardless of what some may say - it can be made affordable.
It gives experienced riders time to focus on bike set up or technique etc
It can give less experienced riders what they need - more track time.


I hope this works...
Your always going to get the ones who don't move up because they like the feeling of owning a group and the fear of being owned ! Easier to talk ppl into moving down ? Nah ! Not once they've been owned there's nothing more to lose, only gains from there on !


Mort you should start up your own track days and see who likes/comes to them, using the methods you want.
I wouldn't want to ride in two groups where every corner you could get taken out by a noob or squid. Riders of similar ability should ride together eg race fast, fast, medium, slow. Its proven to work well and cuts down frustration or faster riders.
It does work and work well with 4 groups ! But the original post was about actual time on the track !
Being the unfit fat slob i am, 15 min is usually plenty and i'm ready to get off the track for a break ! But then there is the wait till your called up again sometimes an hour wait if there is an off or something in one of the other 3 groups !
I Know trackday companies HAVE to cater for the new trackday goers, cause thats where the bread and butter is !
But i am a fan of 15 on and 15 off ! I'd put my hand up and help ANYONE, who might like to put their head on the financial chopping block and organise one !


More the problem of being able to do low 1.40's on a clear track but being held up by the clown on the thou who's only doing 1.50's, but blasts down the straights then hold ya up around the good bits....and ya can't stuff it up the inside of him cause of the rules, or risk going outside cause he can't hold lines either and will run ya off the track....more common of a problem than you think.....BUT how do you fix it? I don't know....
Back to the original question, I prefer the 3 groups with longer sessions....
Low 1.40's your into competition times (and should be competing) practise days, race days, the odd invitational (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=93548) track day !
MotoTT do the odd low numbers trackday every now and then, so they can get out on the track themselves !
Your point is valid but thats trackdays ! You just have to keep in mind they're out there to get faster (and try to keep the mist from forming lol) Have a word to em in the pits perhaps and get them to come out BEHIND you and learn your lines, recon most would appriciate it !
Know that at trackdays, if i hear a bike sittin on my arse through the infield etc, i often give a little room so they can slip through, JUST to give chase (obviously faster than me there so i can learn from it). More often than not, if i can pass em again on the str8, i wont, for a few laps anyway lol, If i'm still in touch then, i'll have a go ! But hey, i'm what you'd call a genleman clown !

Even in racing there is always gonna be someone slower and someone faster than you ! Beauty of racing is you should end up on the grid ahead of them and (unless your on a windup toy with all the weight cut out of it) get through T1 ahead, if not ya can always put it up the inside of em !

[Mort]

Good points Bill...


Mort you should start up your own track days and see who likes/comes to them, using the methods you want.
I wouldn't want to ride in two groups where every corner you could get taken out by a noob or squid. Riders of similar ability should ride together eg race fast, fast, medium, slow. Its proven to work well and cuts down frustration or faster riders.

I think you mis-understand westie :cool: . The two group suggestion is for Intermediate and fast riders. Not Novices. I would suggest that a novice rider would be happy enough with a 3 or 4 group format. Its about more track time for experienced riders. Its not heaping all riders in to fewer groups. I can see though, that 20 minutes on and 20 minutes off would be hard work all day though but at least the rider has the choice to wait... and in that case an Open track format might be better (But then you really would be mixing abilities there)

The proven "generic" formula is the 3 group format... Again - more track time and less sitting about than a 4 group. I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I don't see why its necessary to split the fast group in to two groups. 3 Groups seems to work fine the world over.

[FROSTY]

More the problem of being able to do low 1.40's on a clear track but being held up by the clown on the thou who's only doing 1.50's, but blasts down the straights then hold ya up around the good bits....and ya can't stuff it up the inside of him cause of the rules, or risk going outside cause he can't hold lines either and will run ya off the track....more common of a problem than you think.....BUT how do you fix it? I don't know....
Back to the original question, I prefer the 3 groups with longer sessions....
Mate again I don't know the sollution within the existing format
Heres the nub of the matter. The guy doing his 1.50's paid his money and is not doing owt wrong in as much as he is riding to his ability level and enjoying what he paid for -ie getting to gun his bike to 200 plus legally and ride round corners at speeds well more than he legally can on the road.
==============================================
MY take on matters
As long as trackdays are set up to cater for a broad range of riders style and ability --and Ill make this clear AS THEY DO AND SHOULD
there will be those less that perfectly satisfied with the speed they were able to do or tha laps they were able to get in. For every "fast" guy theres a slower rider that was frightened by the speed difference.
I feel that to keep as many people as possible happy the 4 group setup is the safest and by default means that the amount of SATISFACTORY track time is greater.

Ill just go back and explain myself
Given that 2 organisations both cap their numbers at the same number
By seperating into 4 groups there are less people on track at any one time.
In principle (not always practice) this means less chance of speed discrepancy between the various riders which again means less chance of multi bike incidents. Keeping in mind one factor in amout of and satisfaction from your track time is that crashes reduce track time. Basicly EVERY crash I allow 5 minutes time cost to the day (it averages out at about that)
Unless you want to be scrapping with your mates then your time with clear track in front of you should be greater therefore the QUALITY of your day should be higher.
That said at the last KB trackday I ran 5 groups for the very first session- the normal 4 as well as a novice group for first timers -this was a 10 minute session. The idea was that any first time trackdayers could get an idea of where they should fit into the other groups without any issue and those with a couple of days under their belt could reshuffle into a better suited group. . It seemed to work well.
Ive run trackdays with both the 4 and 3 group setup and at TAUPO track from my viewpoint--ie Im watching you lot out there not on track. The 4 group system works best for both quality and REAL quantity of tracktime.

You guys n gals can help yourselves too.
If you are frustrated by a rider baulking you why not just do a loop through the pits to let them go? Next time out make sure you start in front or waay behind em.
using Deaths example if mr 1.50 is holding you mr 1.40 up and you loop through the pitsat a cost to you of say 1.2m of tracktime you can then spend the next 10 laps chasing him down

There is another point too The trackday companies are to one degree or another running the days as a commercial proposition.When selling a renewable commodody like trackdays you ALWAYS want the customer to finish up wanting more.

[FROSTY]

All that said as above I do believe that there is now a place in New zealand for specialist track days.
1 or indeed 2 groups but much smaller numbers of riders.
The one Im running is specifically aimed to gauge genuine interest level beyond mere novilty.If the real interest is there I will settle into a 2 group type senario.being labled as race group and fast group. Again given enough entrys the plan then is to go back to it being run like a normal trackday with marshals etc

[DaddyK]

Dude Ive spent the last 5 years trying to work out a formula that addresses EXACTLY that issue. Quite honestly I still haven't
Heres the problem mate--And I used to see it all the time.
A guys out there on a ZX10r for example and with the two straights and the big sweeper hes able to do say 1.50 round taupo.
Trouble is hes holding up the poor sod outriding him in all the corners on his old VFR400 --who on a clean lap can only do 1.50 because he's slower on the straights.
This is where Im hoping specialty trackdays might fit into the existing scene.

OK, Its kinda hard not to think since the ZX10 is referenced, that it is us that you are refering to. I manage 1:38 to 1:40's in group 1 and have to deal with motards that are riding lines off the map and smell like lawnmowers. I deal with it. We go out in group 2, on another ZX10 and 2 up, we ride 1:48 to 1:50's, and we pass people, so we are not the slowest bike out there. We try to get out in front to get a clean track but since all this whinging seems to be somehow based around perhaps our existence, we promise to go out last at the next track day, which we are booked at both 27th and 28th, just so all the people on the amazing 400's can have their way.
We pay our money. We hold our lines. We are fast enough.
My suggestion is try a better bike.

[FROSTY]

OK, Its kinda hard not to think since the ZX10 is referenced, that it is us that you are refering to. I manage 1:38 to 1:40's in group 1 and have to deal with motards that are riding lines off the map and smell like lawnmowers. I deal with it. We go out in group 2, on another ZX10 and 2 up, we ride 1:48 to 1:50's, and we pass people, so we are not the slowest bike out there. We try to get out in front to get a clean track but since all this whinging seems to be somehow based around perhaps our existence, we promise to go out last at the next track day, which we are booked at both 27th and 28th, just so all the people on the amazing 400's can have their way.
We pay our money. We hold our lines. We are fast enough.
My suggestion is try a better bike.
Hehehehe--sorry dude you be paranoid.:laugh:
I havent been near a track in 6 months. Coulda as easilly have been a gixxer thou or R1 used as example I plucked zx10 from thin air I think cos choppa's on a zx10

[DaddyK]

Hehehehe--sorry dude you be paranoid.:laugh:
I havent been near a track in 6 months. Coulda as easilly have been a gixxer thou or R1 used as example I plucked zx10 from thin air I think cos choppa's on a zx10

Interesting how your private message seemed a bit nicer than calling us paranoid on the forum within a few minutes of us posting. You do actually go ride dont you?

As I said, we defend the bike we love, the pillioning we do and the hard working people who spend their time trying to organize track days for all of us novices. It irks us that so many experts out there feel the need to whinge about days that are set up for the masses of folks who want and need this outlet because it doesnt speak to their personal condition.

And now, we are actually going to get on one of the 10's we own, and blast up to the Coroglen, 2-up, just as we did yesterday, and will do every chance we can in between track days just to stay on top of the riding.

:Punk: Long live "Team Crazy".:2guns:

[FROSTY]

hey Daddy K its all good dude. :headbang:
Guess you havent been a member here long enough to know that Im one of the "hard working organisers" of track days.

So my comments and questions are from the POV of someone standing in the control box trying to keep EVERYBODY happy.
Just to reiterate for you personally.
My attitude and I feel most likely the attitude of EVERY track day company is that
EVERYBODY has equal right to be on the track and enjoy their experience.
BUT yes the issue of the guy on the 400 being balked in corners by a thou is an issue Ive seen.
Its NOT a blame game its an issue. Thou rider has as much right as 400 rider. One guy has fast corner speed one has fast straightline
Its a matter of a solution that keeps the most people happy whilst also keeping the situation as safe as possible.
I have tried moving mr 400 up a group but there is quite often an ego issue -ie in MED/Fast hes right up there In fast hes an also ran.
Incidently that issue highlights EXACTLY my point about Quality track time
If mr 400 is frustrated and mr thou is frustrated noones havin fun

[DaddyK]

hey Daddy K its all good dude. :headbang:
Guess you havent been a member here long enough to know that Im one of the "hard working organisers" of track days.

So my comments and questions are from the POV of someone standing in the control box trying to keep EVERYBODY happy.
Just to reiterate for you personally.
My attitude and I feel most likely the attitude of EVERY track day company is that
EVERYBODY has equal right to be on the track and enjoy their experience.
BUT yes the issue of the guy on the 400 being balked in corners by a thou is an issue Ive seen.
Its NOT a blame game its an issue. Thou rider has as much right as 400 rider. One guy has fast corner speed one has fast straightline
Its a matter of a solution that keeps the most people happy whilst also keeping the situation as safe as possible.
I have tried moving mr 400 up a group but there is quite often an ego issue -ie in MED/Fast hes right up there In fast hes an also ran.
Incidently that issue highlights EXACTLY my point about Quality track time
If mr 400 is frustrated and mr thou is frustrated noones havin fun


Yeah..Ok.. You say havent been to track in 6 months yet you are an organizer? Sorry. I lost that you are somehow involved...

And for your "point" ..... only the dude on the 400 is complaining.

We havent been "Members" long enough... I suppose.... Yeah..Ok.. Whatever. Maybe we are to busy actually riding to be online and share in what appears to be a pissing contest of the wanna-be's.

Tell yourself whatever you want.

A bunch of whiners is still a bunch of whiners.

We wont be posting anymore. No worries.

Its hard to have a battle of wits with un-armed people who change the story they JUST wrote. Dude... You havent been to a track day in 6 MONTHS?

All we can say is...
ALL TEDDY BEARS SHOULD HAVE HAYABUSA"S!

Thats about it.

LONG LIVE TEAM CRAZY AND AND THE LITRE CLUB!
FUCK YEAH!:Punk::angry:

lol....hehehehehehe.... We're gonna go get drunk now. (Drunker... after after all we just got back from cutting up the coast with amazing mates)
NO COPS TODAY! And LOTS of bikes!!!!!

[FROSTY]

Yeah..Ok.. You say havent been to track in 6 months yet you are an organizer? Sorry. I lost that you are somehow involved...

Its hard to have a battle of wits with un-armed people who change the story they JUST wrote. Dude... You havent been to a track day in 6 MONTHS?
heres the latest http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=92826
this was the last http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=49097

[FROSTY]

Actually Wendy Hold fire --stop, Pause -take a breath.
If how I posted gave offence to you I'm sorry. Seriously and genuinely
Im NOT into winging or whining
Check the threads above -Im That guy

I took a 12 month break from running trackdays to get my business up n running and whilst recovering from a head injury . None the less I'm thinking of more specialised Trackdays and putting money where mouth is to do so.
Not to compete with the other guys but to give a more specialised day for different types of riders.
The dialogue is important to me. In essence this is the means by which I gather the opinions of those who actually attend.
You would be amazed how many major and minor improvements were able to be made thanks to this feedback.
keen to see you guys at the junkies day end of month