What IS the rule?

[dpex]

Does anyone know what the rule is regarding using the rubbish-surfaces to the left or right of the main motorway lanes?

I can't find any reference to them in the Road Rules.

It seems to me that when using these tiny lanes one is neither overtaking or undertaking, on account of there's a nice fat white line marking the edge of the inner or outer lanes.

Maybe we could build a case for allowing bikers to use these lanes (as well as the bus-lanes). Surely, they're a lot safer than lane-splitting?

Hell's teeth! In these days of 'supposed' recession, surely a big attraction to reducing costs is to get on two wheels! Way less motorway and inner-city congestion.

i went down the Southern Motorway at 8am last Friday. The cars and trucks were backed up to the Papakura on-ramp. Twenty K's of more-or-less stopped cars, all idling, all wasting gas. All adding to pollution. What cost on the drivers' productivity after waiting for an hour in more-or-less immobile trafic jams.

On the Eastern run (into the city) on the North Western Motorway, EVERY monrning, the traffic is banked up to the bloody Greenhithe bridge!

And I'll bet it's a similar scenario in every major city in NZ.

But bikes can transcend this. You can get four bikes into the space of one car! Surely, to not foster bikes as a future method of eco-transport, is madness?

I might write to the minister.

Meantime. Anyone who might know the rule about the edge-bits, feel free to exculpate.

[cheshirecat]

Good call.
I put it to Wellington Council that motorcycles are part of the solution not the problem re parking for free. Got this from somewhere else but it's an easy mindset quote/slogan. NZ is meant to be green etc etc.
In London bikes are poised or can now use bus lanes - no mean feat considering the conjestion and anti bike mindset there.
Oh this would be especially useful in the wet.

[McJim]

I don't think you are allowed to use them. I agree that there seems to be a lot of resistance to saving fuel and cutting congestion with motorcycles since I am from the UK where filtering (lane splitting) is legal precisely because it reduces congestion and emissions.

However we live in New Zealand which is a country for cars. Cars always come first, cars are best, cars have priority, even if you get a driving ban you can apply to drive to work. Back in the UK if you lose your licence and then lose your job because you liost your licence well tough titty. Which is the way it should be.

This is one of the few countries where car hits pedestrian and its the pedestrian's fault.

You will never change that culture it has become too embedded in the national psyche.

[tigertim20]

while on the subject (sorto f) is lane splitting legal anyway?

[Ixion]

A "standard" two lane causeway ("road") (the sort the laws are based around) has five components, from a legal point of view.

A left shoulder, a left lane, a centre line, a right lane, a right shoulder.

The left and right shoulders are the part from the left and right edge , respectively, of the lane. Usually marked by a white line though that is not necessary. There may be a grass verge, ditch , etc , but these are not parts of the legal causeway (which doesn't mean that you can ignore the road rules by riding on the verge!) .

Now, a motorway may introduce a complexity. On the "standard" road there is nothing between the left lane and right lane, except a white line to mark the delineation. But on a motorway (and some other roads), there may be a central median or barrier. This takes the place of the white line.

Because Mabel gets all scared if she has to drive next to a horrible concrete barrier, the nice roading people mark some lines a foot or so out from the barrier. They can then reassure Mabel "No dear, it's quite all right, the horrid barrier is not in you lane, it won't hurt you " (I am serious about this )

But the white lines on the central side of the lanes do not, unlike the white lines at the outer edges, mark the edge of the lane. That is in fact, the barrier. There is legally no such thing as a central shoulder. The central white lines are merely a psychological crutch to the timid. Riding on the bit between the white lines and the central barrier, you are actually riding to the right of the right hand lane. Quite legal.

Note however : IANAL. And this has not been ratified by a court. Feel free to be the test case. Bear in mind also, that if Mr Plod objects to your riding there , there are many other things he can ticket you for .

[Blackshear]

Back in the UK if you lose your licence and then lose your job because you liost your licence well tough titty. Which is the way it should be.


Every time I hear that bitch's voice on the radio, which is bascially as follows: "I can get you out of drink driving charges, blah blah blah, cause I love doing it and hearing all the crazy stories"

Just her. She really pisses me off. I'm sure a lost family member will change her jobs view.

[FJRider]

And I'll bet it's a similar scenario in every major city in NZ.



That is not the case... Alexandra has NO motorway issues of any kind. :dodge:

And we like it that way... :2thumbsup

[kiwi cowboy]

That is not the case... Alexandra has NO motorway issues of any kind. :dodge:

And we like it that way... :2thumbsup


:laugh::laugh:motorway in alexandra:laugh::laugh:

[FJRider]

Does anyone know what the rule is regarding using the rubbish-surfaces to the left or right of the main motorway lanes?





They are for use in an emergency, and for the use of emergency vehicles...

The law enforcers take a dim view of those who use them for other than that .....

[FJRider]

:laugh::laugh:motorway in alexandra:laugh::laugh:

But we dont have any issues... do we.

[FROSTY]

fuck the rule --Its just plumb really bad economics to use those Motorway edges.All the nails and busted glass and other debris ends up there. Believe me -many years of Motorway commuting. More holes in tyres from when the law allowing bikes in buslanes was still a bit vague.
than the whole time splitting lanes

[Nasty]

They are for use in an emergency, and for the use of emergency vehicles...

The law enforcers take a dim view of those who use them for other than that .....

So dimmer view that they have little ticketing binges .... well at least they do here in Wellington.

[FJRider]

So dimmer view that they have little ticketing binges .... well at least they do here in Wellington.

Ahhhh.... the joys of city life...

We had a ticketing binge down here a little while back. BOTH cops were on duty at the same time... The topic of the binge was baby seats...

[Big Dave]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=31688&highlight=splitting

[dpex]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=31688&highlight=splitting

So have you had any response from your offical nod at the officials?

[dpex]

fuck the rule --Its just plumb really bad economics to use those Motorway edges.All the nails and busted glass and other debris ends up there. Believe me -many years of Motorway commuting. More holes in tyres from when the law allowing bikes in buslanes was still a bit vague.
than the whole time splitting lanes

Can't agree here. On Sunday I used the inside and outside 'scrubby-bits' all the way from Papakura to the New market fly-over and never saw the slightest hint of debris. And, given the surface is a light orange-brown colour, foreign objects would show up quite clearly.

Perhaps your experiences occurred before they invented road sweepers. :--))

[FROSTY]

Hmm on and off 15 years of Motorway commuting Vs 1 day. But hey dont believe me. Have a quiet word to le motorway cop.

[MSTRS]

And I'll bet it's a similar scenario in every major city in NZ.



... Alexandra
:laugh:

Does anyone know what the rule is regarding using the rubbish-surfaces to the left or right of the main motorway lanes?
Don't know for sure about the section to the right of a marked lane, but there is a law about the section to the left. The section between the (usually) solid white line and the edge of the seal. Usually very narrow, but on the more major roads it can be as wide as a lane in itself. It is not a legal driving lane. Its purpose is as an emergency stopping area (breakdown lane) and sometimes as a cycleway. If you proceed as normal in this 'lane' you risk being charged with something like 'creating a second/third lane where none exists' or words to that effect.

[Jantar]

There was an item in Bike Rider magazine about 4 years ago covering this very topic. A rider using that section to the right received a ticket for "driving in an unavailable lane". He measured the width and determined that it wasn't a legal lane, so opted to defend the charge. The cops ammended the charge to "did drive outside his lane". He could find nothing in any law that said it was illegal to drive or ride outside a lane, other than in a safety zone (ie the section on the left of the motorway). He took the matter to the Minister of Transport before it went to court, and the next thing was that the whole matter was dropped.

BRM interviewed a lawyer, Bill Dean, (was my lawyer a few years ago) who also said that that there is nothing in law to prevent anyone from riding along that section.

So certainly use it, but be prepared that you may get a ticket, but that if you fight that ticket you should win.

[Ixion]

Yep. That's my understanding also. The bit between the lanes has no legal status (unless it is a painted median) .The reason you can't use the bit on the left is because there is a law specifically prohibiting it. Note that there is also law against actually riding ON a median (the grassy bit that sometimes is between the opposing lanes) , so the chookchasers are out of luck.

The "unavailable lane" rule is intended to deal with the situation when a lane is closed , eg by cones or such like.

Do note both Mr Frostys comments, and that the central bit is a bit risky cos sometimes it disappears down to zero width. And that cops are not likely to be amused! (Though, it legal to overtake on the right within a lane and a cop on the roadside would be very hard put to argue that you *weren't* actually overtaking on the far right of the right hand lane )

I've used the central bit on occasion, but usually only when some cunt blocks lane 1a.

[Bass]

Can't agree here. On Sunday I used the inside and outside 'scrubby-bits' all the way from Papakura to the New market fly-over and never saw the slightest hint of debris. And, given the surface is a light orange-brown colour, foreign objects would show up quite clearly.

Perhaps your experiences occurred before they invented road sweepers. :--))

I'm with Frosty and I'm talking recent experiences.
They really don't get swept very often in comparason to the traffic volume the m/ways carry and the crap that gets spread on them.
Every wooden pallet or packing case on the back of a truck is a potential source of nails, for example.

But hey - you've been lucky, I haven't. Perhaps things will carry on that way.

[Big Dave]

So have you had any response from your offical nod at the officials?

The police spokesperson's phone always goes straight to message and has never returned my calls. Due diligence - gave up.

A few KB Bike cops have kindly made themselves available for an off the record/after hours chat about several matters and I haven't had sh*t together enough to follow up.

I currently have a backlog of bike tests to write up :weep: < irony.

[vgcspares]

And I'll bet it's a similar scenario in every major city in NZ.

er No ... most have a cattle grid at front and rear, but no motorway network and no jams (save Wellington of course)

[firefighter]

I don't think you are allowed to use them. I agree that there seems to be a lot of resistance to saving fuel and cutting congestion with motorcycles since I am from the UK where filtering (lane splitting) is legal precisely because it reduces congestion and emissions.

Not to argue with ya, I certainly would'nt considering that's ya birth place in all!......but I heard you get charged with dangerous driving over there, for lane splitting......? (I cannot for the life of me remember where I got this from, but it was very recent, I think it may have been on cops (whatever the british one is-I watch a lot of that shit lol)



You will never change that culture it has become too embedded in the national psyche.

We can thank the biker-gangs for this attitude towards motorcyclists in N.Z.......

[peasea]

So dimmer view that they have little ticketing binges .... well at least they do here in Wellington.

Been ticketed for using the emergency lane; stinking hot day, accident on southern motorway, traffic backed up to the North Shore, puddling along, doing (maybe) 50kph, the tosser caused a major hassle getting to me and then caused another holdup by creating a line of slower moving rubber-neckers.

They'll uphold the law at any cost, even if they have to kill you to do it.

Ask Mrs Wallace.

[peasea]

We can thank the biker-gangs for this attitude towards motorcyclists in N.Z.......

While 'outlaw' M/C's probably don't help I'd say sports bike riders have a lot to answer for also.

In my thirty six years around motorcycles I've seen more stupid things done by sports bike riders than any other group of bikers.

As for car drivers....:shit:

[MarkH]

even if you get a driving ban you can apply to drive to work. Back in the UK if you lose your licence and then lose your job because you liost your licence well tough titty. Which is the way it should be.

Hmmm, you are saying that if you get 3 speeding tickets over 2 years and earn enough demerit points to lose your license for 3 months (as well as the 3 fines you have already paid) then it is fair to also lose your job, possibly your house (the job was paying the mortgage) and be unable to support your family? Is this really your idea of justice? It seems a little over the top to me for infringing on some technicality in the driving regulations.

In law there is a requirement for the punishment to fit the crime, there have been people that that had convictions quashed because the effect of having those convictions on their records would be out of proportion to the severity of their offending. Being punished for breaking the law is one thing, but over the top severe penalties for minor infractions is not fair or just. We don't hold with imprisoning a person for 2 years for being rude to officials in this country, thank you very much. http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/2249629/Faulty-passport-sees-man-beaten-and-jailed

[peasea]

Hmmm, you are saying that if you get 3 speeding tickets over 2 years and earn enough demerit points to lose your license for 3 months (as well as the 3 fines you have already paid) then it is fair to also lose your job, possibly your house (the job was paying the mortgage) and be unable to support your family? Is this really your idea of justice? It seems a little over the top to me for infringing on some technicality in the driving regulations.

In law there is a requirement for the punishment to fit the crime, there have been people that that had convictions quashed because the effect of having those convictions on their records would be out of proportion to the severity of their offending. Being punished for breaking the law is one thing, but over the top severe penalties for minor infractions is not fair or just. We don't hold with imprisoning a person for 2 years for being rude to officials in this country, thank you very much. http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/2249629/Faulty-passport-sees-man-beaten-and-jailed

Just as well, I'd never get out.

Seriously though folks.....one of the reasons I'd never go to any of those fucked up countries, beautiful as they may be, is because of the nutty officialdom. (It's bad enough here...) I get plenty of jollies right here in NZ, love the place, the scenery, the food, this is a bloody great country in many respects. Nowhere is perfect but this ain't bad.

[Swoop]

We can thank the biker-gangs for this attitude towards motorcyclists in N.Z.
I don't think so. Jim is referring to the "car" mentality of NZ... "Cars always come first, cars are best, cars have priority" which is brought about due to the lack of decent public transportation here in this Banana Republic of NZ.
Couple that with the availability of cheap asian reject cars and bingo!

[FROSTY]

Sorry re talking to Mr policeman Im talking check out the tyres on any motorway bike cops bike. A good mate of mine used to be mechanic at the north shore mway base. A bifg part of his work was fixing flat tyres.
If ya don't believe me find a safe place to stop and have a looksee

[dpex]

Hmm on and off 15 years of Motorway commuting Vs 1 day. But hey dont believe me. Have a quiet word to le motorway cop.


Le Motorway cop has got zip to do with your posit that the side bits are covered in shit.

[dpex]

There was an item in Bike Rider magazine about 4 years ago covering this very topic. A rider using that section to the right received a ticket for "driving in an unavailable lane". He measured the width and determined that it wasn't a legal lane, so opted to defend the charge. The cops ammended the charge to "did drive outside his lane". He could find nothing in any law that said it was illegal to drive or ride outside a lane, other than in a safety zone (ie the section on the left of the motorway). He took the matter to the Minister of Transport before it went to court, and the next thing was that the whole matter was dropped.

BRM interviewed a lawyer, Bill Dean, (was my lawyer a few years ago) who also said that that there is nothing in law to prevent anyone from riding along that section.

So certainly use it, but be prepared that you may get a ticket, but that if you fight that ticket you should win.

At last, we have Jantar providing some fact as opposed to various opinions.

Jantar. This case must have had a number. Can you access it? Can you approach the lawyer you mention? Or can you provide me with contact details for him?

If we can get that, then we can all use that part of the road (don't tell the cagers who driver VERY narrow cages). Then, when stopped by a cop we can all quote the relevant case number and, if he/she is still adamant, then we just accept the ticket in good grace and stump up to court with the defence.

[dpex]

The police spokesperson's phone always goes straight to message and has never returned my calls. Due diligence - gave up.

A few KB Bike cops have kindly made themselves available for an off the record/after hours chat about several matters and I haven't had sh*t together enough to follow up.

You make an excellent point.

I currently have a backlog of bike tests to write up :weep: < irony.

You make an excellent point. Come on, Scumdog! What's the rules?

[dpex]

er No ... most have a cattle grid at front and rear, but no motorway network and no jams (save Wellington of course)

Sorry. Wellington is not a major city. It is a prole-hill, filled mostly with bureaucratic proles who can't get proper jobs, many of whom spend their days thinking ever-more creative ways to upset bikers, and parents, and tax-payers, and cockroaches. See! They even get at their own type.

[dpex]

Hmmm, you are saying that if you get 3 speeding tickets over 2 years and earn enough demerit points to lose your license for 3 months (as well as the 3 fines you have already paid) then it is fair to also lose your job, possibly your house (the job was paying the mortgage) and be unable to support your family? Is this really your idea of justice? It seems a little over the top to me for infringing on some technicality in the driving regulations.

In law there is a requirement for the punishment to fit the crime, there have been people that that had convictions quashed because the effect of having those convictions on their records would be out of proportion to the severity of their offending. Being punished for breaking the law is one thing, but over the top severe penalties for minor infractions is not fair or just. We don't hold with imprisoning a person for 2 years for being rude to officials in this country, thank you very much. http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/2249629/Faulty-passport-sees-man-beaten-and-jailed

And then there's the Polynesian woman who killed her own baby....Birthed it in a dunny, stuffed it in a plastic bag and slung it out the window. The judge decided that to convict her would cause her Samoan family indescribable embarrassment.

Oh yeah. The justice system works really well in NZ.

You kill a baby and get off. You get 100 demerit points and probably lose your job, house, family.

[Jantar]

At last, we have Jantar providing some fact as opposed to various opinions.

Jantar. This case must have had a number. Can you access it? Can you approach the lawyer you mention? Or can you provide me with contact details for him?
.....

The case didn't go to court, it was dropped before it got that far. The Lawyer who answered BRM's query was Bill Dean from Dean and Associates in Oamaru. I'll look back through my old issues of BRM and see if I can find the actual item.

[dpex]

Sorry re talking to Mr policeman Im talking check out the tyres on any motorway bike cops bike. A good mate of mine used to be mechanic at the north shore mway base. A bifg part of his work was fixing flat tyres.
If ya don't believe me find a safe place to stop and have a looksee

Keep thumping the tub, me old mate. Fact is, I've used both left and right parts of the motorways for ages, not just one day. Never had a prob yet, even on my old, munted tyres.

Interestingly, the cagers seem to change attitudes on a daily basis.

Today I did Central Orks to Te Atatu, using whatever spaces where available...Lane splitting, left shoulder, and right. I was amazed at the number of cagers who moved 'into' my path....Like it was, 'Fuck you! If I'm stuck in this shit then I ain't letting you past.'

Yet, on so many other days, the cagers have moved left or right to allow me passage.

I find this same thing in suburban traffic. Most days many cagers move out of my way. I always wave a thanks. Yet, on other days, I see them squeazing the gap, knowing I'm coming along.

Must be something to do with the moon phases.

The other thing I've noticed is, cagers tend to keep to the right of the lanes. I guess this is because they can measure their safety on their right-side a lot more easily than they can on their left.

Have you all noticed that there is always a great deal more space to the left of cagers in a lane, than on the right?

[dpex]

The case didn't go to court, it was dropped before it got that far. The Lawyer who answered BRM's query was Bill Dean from Dean and Associates in Oamaru. I'll look back through my old issues of BRM and see if I can find the actual item.

You do that...Well done Jantar. I'll go after Dean and Assocs.

We'll get some sense into this discussion yet.

Cheers

[Jantar]

.... I'll look back through my old issues of BRM and see if I can find the actual item.

Whewww! I had to look back further than I thought. It is in issue 18 of BRM April/May 2004. The rider concerned is Ross Charlton, and the Lawyer was indeed Bill Dean. He actually received two tickets for this. He simply paid the first one, but when another cop advised him to use the right hand safety shoulder he went back to using it. 4 months later the cop who gave him the first ticket gave him another one. That is when he started the legal route to get it tossed.

[dpex]

The case didn't go to court, it was dropped before it got that far. The Lawyer who answered BRM's query was Bill Dean from Dean and Associates in Oamaru. I'll look back through my old issues of BRM and see if I can find the actual item.

Well done you! I found them. I've emailed them. I've offered to pay....on behalf of all KBers (God but I have such a big heart) to get the legal low-down.

When I get it, you'll all get it.

Consider it an early Christmas present. :--))))

[MarkH]

Have you all noticed that there is always a great deal more space to the left of cagers in a lane, than on the right?

Yep, notice that pretty much every day. It's because the cagers are sitting on the right side of their vehicle, much easier to judge the distance from the right of the cage to the line/barrier. I just cruise past and if a gap closes up it doesn't hold me up for too long, there's always another way past!

[rwh]

Yep, notice that pretty much every day. It's because the cagers are sitting on the right side of their vehicle, much easier to judge the distance from the right of the cage to the line/barrier. I just cruise past and if a gap closes up it doesn't hold me up for too long, there's always another way past!

I do it when I'm in my car too, but I don't think that's the reason. I think it's in the vain hope that I might actually see what's up ahead. Of course, since everyone else is doing the same thing, it doesn't work. The other factor is probably just lining up with the rest of the cars. It's not something I usually think about. Oh - and if I moved to the left while everyone else was on the right, there'd be nowhere left to split ...

Richard

[peasea]

You make an excellent point. Come on, Scumdog! What's the rules?

Firstly: Who'd want to cum on Scumdog and
Secondly: It's "what ARE the rules?"

'Rules' are plural and therefore it's 'what are the rules'.

Sheesh.

[rwh]

Le Motorway cop has got zip to do with your posit that the side bits are covered in shit.

Except that le bike cop probably spends more time than most riding in les side bits.

Richard

[peasea]

Yep, notice that pretty much every day. It's because the cagers are sitting on the right side of their vehicle, much easier to judge the distance from the right of the cage to the line/barrier. I just cruise past and if a gap closes up it doesn't hold me up for too long, there's always another way past!

I was cruising southward just off the bridge one afternoon, some twat moved right, as he saw me trundling along in the far right 'lane'. I slowed, almost to a stop, smashed his right-hand mirror with my left hand, motored off and never heard a thing about it.

Sometimes jealousy (of a faster commute) can bite you on the arse. Power assisted mirrors ain't cheap.

[Grahameeboy]

I am puzzled...just filter...no cop is going to chase you in a 20k line of traffic...no point even considering using this debris lane...

[McJim]

Hmmm, you are saying that if you get 3 speeding tickets over 2 years and earn enough demerit points to lose your license for 3 months (as well as the 3 fines you have already paid) then it is fair to also lose your job, possibly your house (the job was paying the mortgage) and be unable to support your family? Is this really your idea of justice? It seems a little over the top to me for infringing on some technicality in the driving regulations.
You know the rules - don't break 'em unless you can afford the consequences. Seems simple enough to me.

If you accumulate enough points to lose your licence then you're either a hoon or a menace - either way I don't want to have to share the tarmac with you.

[peasea]

i am puzzled...just filter...no cop is going to chase you in a 20k line of traffic...no point even considering using this debris lane...


yes they fucking will!!!!

[dpex]

yes they fucking will!!!!

Split infinitive?

[Grahameeboy]

yes they fucking will!!!!

Oh no they won't.........

[Grahameeboy]

You know the rules - don't break 'em unless you can afford the consequences. Seems simple enough to me.

If you accumulate enough points to lose your licence then you're either a hoon or a menace - either way I don't want to have to share the tarmac with you.

That's a bit tuff Jamie...Drink / Driving I would agree but with totting up I am not sure I agree...plus we are not all hoons...I was conviction free 1979 - 2005 (been here since 1998) and got 100 points in 10 days short of 2 years...I stopped when the cop said I did not have to because he was after someone else and he decided to give me a ticket anyway...yes I would agree on the one hand that having a disabled Daughter I should never speed and am irresponsible...but I am no hoon and I the tickets have been for 124ish out in the countryside, a speed I am sure you have done at times...do I give up riding, the one thing that gives me a bit of solice...

[MSTRS]

...the tickets have been for 124ish out in the countryside, ...

124? :gob: And you didn't die? You must have been on that bit of tarmac to the left of the legal lane...after all, the ads tell us that if you do 110+ on the road, you will die.

[Grahameeboy]

124? :gob: And you didn't die? You must have been on that bit of tarmac to the left of the legal lane...after all, the ads tell us that if you do 110+ on the road, you will die.

Well funny you should mention that cause I sometimes have this funny feeling that I don't have to open doors...I am sure it is just in my imagination....