To Robert Taylor and other MNZ bashers

[Mark Pav]

I have observed recent writings on this site and it is with some regret that I feel compelled to write here. This probably would have been better served as a personal message, but as Robert Taylor has chosen a public forum to write his opinions in, I feel that I must likewise reply in such a forum. Firstly let’s put all our cards on the table. I am the older brother of the current CEO of MNZ so I do not claim impartiality. But it seems that such a virtue is in short supply around here anyway, so let us continue in spite of it…… My brother will probably be annoyed that I have taken this course of action but unlike others who have both declared, and undeclared interests in the recent discussions, I have at least had the courtesy to disclose my identity. I am thus moved to address Robert as he has the courtesy to identify himself. The anonymous phantoms in the mist deserve no such respect.

I am saddened by the fact that I have come to lose respect for someone that I have admired as a very capable expert in the disciplines of motorcycle engineering, particularly suspension. Credit where it is due though, Robert has not chosen to hide behind the anonymity that the internet can provide. He has stuck his head up and voiced opinions that have become increasingly personal in nature and he has taken to playing the man and not the ball. He has apparently embarked on a campaign of personal vendetta and in doing so has lowered his standing in the eyes of many people. The CEO is facing a crisis in participation in a sport that he has been associated with and loved for many years. The quality of entries at the sharp end is not the issue, the quantity is. Competitor numbers in National Champs have fallen from the 2006 level of 35 entrants in the 600’s down to 26 entries in 2009 . The big capacity class has fallen from 23 to 15 entries in the same period. Back in 2005 there were 30 entries in the big capacity class. The CEO has seen fit to initiate responses to this perceived crisis. If he stood idly by and let the numbers in Road Racing’s premiere classes decline even further, the same hounds that bark and whine that he is trying to do something now would be howling for his blood, crying that he stood by and let it die…..
Paul’s job is to help grow motorcycling in New Zealand. MNZ is an organising body, not a branch of the trade. He has been told repeatedly by competitors that costs are too high, and in an effort to reduce these he has made proposals to reduce the cost of running a competitive machine. Robert Taylor has attempted to hijack the discussions about change and convert them into an argument about motorcycle suspension and chassis dynamics, an area I am sure that he is comfortable in discussing, but in doing so the debate is distracted from where it really needs to be. Robert has become an outspoken critic of the CEO. A small chorus of the disaffected have generalised it into derision of all MNZ staff. Among this group are people who have probably been disciplined for assaulting stewards and making potentially criminally libellous statements about MNZ staff. Robert claims that the CEO is acting in a dictatorial and single minded way, whilst he himself has proceeded to behave in precisely such a manner, closing his mind to all possibility of change to class rules that alter the current market for suspension products and expertise. He and others have expanded this reaction into a critique of all aspects of MNZ’s operations , even down to pathetic dribblings about car park spaces…. I doubt that their $120.00 would buy much in any specialist race suspension shop, yet for the small sum of their annual subscription ( only a part of MNZ funding ), these anonymous critics expect that they should control every last detail of the administration of a complex organisation. Perhaps Robert might be able to inform them about the subtleties of the provincial real estate market, but I imagine that the car park might have actually risen in value since it was purchased thus becoming an appreciating asset. Do not mistake outspokenness for correctness.

Roberts shock and alarm at the voluntary departure of Paul Stewart seems to have played a part in generating much of his animosity. It is sad to see attempts to turn Paul Stewart’s departure into some sort of Jihadi martyrdom as these detract from his achievements.

If you want to play the man Robert, consider the following. In developing a personal attack on PP you need to realise that you are attacking a man who spent every moment of his life between 1974 and 1998 breathing racing motorcycles. He spent every cent of disposable income for 24 years on his passion for racing motorcycles, risking his life and limbs , and sustaining serious injuries for the beautiful madness that is Road Racing. If I am not mistaken, you have always been a bench racer , risking at most, a pinched thumb from an errant shock spring….. Conversely your involvement in motorcycle racing over a similar period of time has mostly derived you income in some way or another, So don’t talk lightly about the love of motorcycle racing around here mate. Whilst enjoying a good income at present, Paul left behind corporate sector jobs that paid multiples of what he is probably on now, so he’s not in it for the money.

So now Robert hopes that a new President of MNZ might enable him to take the fight to the CEO...this will of course, immediately solve the entire issue !!( enter appropriate Tui beer advert slogan here )

Change needs to come to Road Racing in NZ. In my opinion, alignment with Australian Superstock rules would enable an affordable and competitive race series that would enable a two way traffic of riders and machines . If you think that would make boring racing just ask any of the riders and spectators who have seen it in Australia.

So before you dismiss me as a sycophantic sibling Robert, remember its not too late to change yourself and possibly your point of view. There might even be a place for you, God knows you are intelligent enough to adapt…….
As for your various political ramblings, I think somebody should contact Labour Party headquarters and let them know that they are losing the support of small provincial entrepreneurial capitalists. I’m sure they would be “shocked” to find that they are losing the battle for what must surely have been their traditional support base……

[Scouse]

Well said that Man

[scott411]

well said Mark, very well said

[Robert Taylor]

I have observed recent writings on this site and it is with some regret that I feel compelled to write here. This probably would have been better served as a personal message, but as Robert Taylor has chosen a public forum to write his opinions in, I feel that I must likewise reply in such a forum. Firstly let’s put all our cards on the table. I am the older brother of the current CEO of MNZ so I do not claim impartiality. But it seems that such a virtue is in short supply around here anyway, so let us continue in spite of it…… My brother will probably be annoyed that I have taken this course of action but unlike others who have both declared, and undeclared interests in the recent discussions, I have at least had the courtesy to disclose my identity. I am thus moved to address Robert as he has the courtesy to identify himself. The anonymous phantoms in the mist deserve no such respect.

I am saddened by the fact that I have come to lose respect for someone that I have admired as a very capable expert in the disciplines of motorcycle engineering, particularly suspension. Credit where it is due though, Robert has not chosen to hide behind the anonymity that the internet can provide. He has stuck his head up and voiced opinions that have become increasingly personal in nature and he has taken to playing the man and not the ball. He has apparently embarked on a campaign of personal vendetta and in doing so has lowered his standing in the eyes of many people. The CEO is facing a crisis in participation in a sport that he has been associated with and loved for many years. The quality of entries at the sharp end is not the issue, the quantity is. Competitor numbers in National Champs have fallen from the 2006 level of 35 entrants in the 600’s down to 26 entries in 2009 . The big capacity class has fallen from 23 to 15 entries in the same period. Back in 2005 there were 30 entries in the big capacity class. The CEO has seen fit to initiate responses to this perceived crisis. If he stood idly by and let the numbers in Road Racing’s premiere classes decline even further, the same hounds that bark and whine that he is trying to do something now would be howling for his blood, crying that he stood by and let it die…..
Paul’s job is to help grow motorcycling in New Zealand. MNZ is an organising body, not a branch of the trade. He has been told repeatedly by competitors that costs are too high, and in an effort to reduce these he has made proposals to reduce the cost of running a competitive machine. Robert Taylor has attempted to hijack the discussions about change and convert them into an argument about motorcycle suspension and chassis dynamics, an area I am sure that he is comfortable in discussing, but in doing so the debate is distracted from where it really needs to be. Robert has become an outspoken critic of the CEO. A small chorus of the disaffected have generalised it into derision of all MNZ staff. Among this group are people who have probably been disciplined for assaulting stewards and making potentially criminally libellous statements about MNZ staff. Robert claims that the CEO is acting in a dictatorial and single minded way, whilst he himself has proceeded to behave in precisely such a manner, closing his mind to all possibility of change to class rules that alter the current market for suspension products and expertise. He and others have expanded this reaction into a critique of all aspects of MNZ’s operations , even down to pathetic dribblings about car park spaces…. I doubt that their $120.00 would buy much in any specialist race suspension shop, yet for the small sum of their annual subscription ( only a part of MNZ funding ), these anonymous critics expect that they should control every last detail of the administration of a complex organisation. Perhaps Robert might be able to inform them about the subtleties of the provincial real estate market, but I imagine that the car park might have actually risen in value since it was purchased thus becoming an appreciating asset. Do not mistake outspokenness for correctness.

Roberts shock and alarm at the voluntary departure of Paul Stewart seems to have played a part in generating much of his animosity. It is sad to see attempts to turn Paul Stewart’s departure into some sort of Jihadi martyrdom as these detract from his achievements.

If you want to play the man Robert, consider the following. In developing a personal attack on PP you need to realise that you are attacking a man who spent every moment of his life between 1974 and 1998 breathing racing motorcycles. He spent every cent of disposable income for 24 years on his passion for racing motorcycles, risking his life and limbs , and sustaining serious injuries for the beautiful madness that is Road Racing. If I am not mistaken, you have always been a bench racer , risking at most, a pinched thumb from an errant shock spring….. Conversely your involvement in motorcycle racing over a similar period of time has mostly derived you income in some way or another, So don’t talk lightly about the love of motorcycle racing around here mate. Whilst enjoying a good income at present, Paul left behind corporate sector jobs that paid multiples of what he is probably on now, so he’s not in it for the money.

So now Robert hopes that a new President of MNZ might enable him to take the fight to the CEO...this will of course, immediately solve the entire issue !!( enter appropriate Tui beer advert slogan here )

Change needs to come to Road Racing in NZ. In my opinion, alignment with Australian Superstock rules would enable an affordable and competitive race series that would enable a two way traffic of riders and machines . If you think that would make boring racing just ask any of the riders and spectators who have seen it in Australia.

So before you dismiss me as a sycophantic sibling Robert, remember its not too late to change yourself and possibly your point of view. There might even be a place for you, God knows you are intelligent enough to adapt…….
As for your various political ramblings, I think somebody should contact Labour Party headquarters and let them know that they are losing the support of small provincial entrepreneurial capitalists. I’m sure they would be “shocked” to find that they are losing the battle for what must surely have been their traditional support base……

I have only skimmed over this and you will note that I have never questioned your brothers motivation in trying to grow the sport, just the way he is going about it. As for personal attacks heck Ive got a long way to go given what Ive evidenced from other parties, and as you say not always putting their name forward. If it has come across that way ( as personal ) then I do apologise as many people who dont know me personally may misread a little what I am driving at.
If Jim Tuckerman wins the presidency ( and I think that could be possible ) he may well restore a culture of democracy and consultation. If Paul can work with that then all good.
What I do resent is that technical advice borne of long experience is not given as much credence as it should. For these final two remarks I offer no apology.

[Shaun]

I have observed recent writings on this site and it is with some regret that I feel compelled to write here. This probably would have been better served as a personal message, but as Robert Taylor has chosen a public forum to write his opinions in, I feel that I must likewise reply in such a forum. Firstly let’s put all our cards on the table. I am the older brother of the current CEO of MNZ so I do not claim impartiality. But it seems that such a virtue is in short supply around here anyway, so let us continue in spite of it…… My brother will probably be annoyed that I have taken this course of action but unlike others who have both declared, and undeclared interests in the recent discussions, I have at least had the courtesy to disclose my identity. I am thus moved to address Robert as he has the courtesy to identify himself. The anonymous phantoms in the mist deserve no such respect.

I am saddened by the fact that I have come to lose respect for someone that I have admired as a very capable expert in the disciplines of motorcycle engineering, particularly suspension. Credit where it is due though, Robert has not chosen to hide behind the anonymity that the internet can provide. He has stuck his head up and voiced opinions that have become increasingly personal in nature and he has taken to playing the man and not the ball. He has apparently embarked on a campaign of personal vendetta and in doing so has lowered his standing in the eyes of many people. The CEO is facing a crisis in participation in a sport that he has been associated with and loved for many years. The quality of entries at the sharp end is not the issue, the quantity is. Competitor numbers in National Champs have fallen from the 2006 level of 35 entrants in the 600’s down to 26 entries in 2009 . The big capacity class has fallen from 23 to 15 entries in the same period. Back in 2005 there were 30 entries in the big capacity class. The CEO has seen fit to initiate responses to this perceived crisis. If he stood idly by and let the numbers in Road Racing’s premiere classes decline even further, the same hounds that bark and whine that he is trying to do something now would be howling for his blood, crying that he stood by and let it die…..
Paul’s job is to help grow motorcycling in New Zealand. MNZ is an organising body, not a branch of the trade. He has been told repeatedly by competitors that costs are too high, and in an effort to reduce these he has made proposals to reduce the cost of running a competitive machine. Robert Taylor has attempted to hijack the discussions about change and convert them into an argument about motorcycle suspension and chassis dynamics, an area I am sure that he is comfortable in discussing, but in doing so the debate is distracted from where it really needs to be. Robert has become an outspoken critic of the CEO. A small chorus of the disaffected have generalised it into derision of all MNZ staff. Among this group are people who have probably been disciplined for assaulting stewards and making potentially criminally libellous statements about MNZ staff. Robert claims that the CEO is acting in a dictatorial and single minded way, whilst he himself has proceeded to behave in precisely such a manner, closing his mind to all possibility of change to class rules that alter the current market for suspension products and expertise. He and others have expanded this reaction into a critique of all aspects of MNZ’s operations , even down to pathetic dribblings about car park spaces…. I doubt that their $120.00 would buy much in any specialist race suspension shop, yet for the small sum of their annual subscription ( only a part of MNZ funding ), these anonymous critics expect that they should control every last detail of the administration of a complex organisation. Perhaps Robert might be able to inform them about the subtleties of the provincial real estate market, but I imagine that the car park might have actually risen in value since it was purchased thus becoming an appreciating asset. Do not mistake outspokenness for correctness.

Roberts shock and alarm at the voluntary departure of Paul Stewart seems to have played a part in generating much of his animosity. It is sad to see attempts to turn Paul Stewart’s departure into some sort of Jihadi martyrdom as these detract from his achievements.

If you want to play the man Robert, consider the following. In developing a personal attack on PP you need to realise that you are attacking a man who spent every moment of his life between 1974 and 1998 breathing racing motorcycles. He spent every cent of disposable income for 24 years on his passion for racing motorcycles, risking his life and limbs , and sustaining serious injuries for the beautiful madness that is Road Racing. If I am not mistaken, you have always been a bench racer , risking at most, a pinched thumb from an errant shock spring….. Conversely your involvement in motorcycle racing over a similar period of time has mostly derived you income in some way or another, So don’t talk lightly about the love of motorcycle racing around here mate. Whilst enjoying a good income at present, Paul left behind corporate sector jobs that paid multiples of what he is probably on now, so he’s not in it for the money.

So now Robert hopes that a new President of MNZ might enable him to take the fight to the CEO...this will of course, immediately solve the entire issue !!( enter appropriate Tui beer advert slogan here )

Change needs to come to Road Racing in NZ. In my opinion, alignment with Australian Superstock rules would enable an affordable and competitive race series that would enable a two way traffic of riders and machines . If you think that would make boring racing just ask any of the riders and spectators who have seen it in Australia.

So before you dismiss me as a sycophantic sibling Robert, remember its not too late to change yourself and possibly your point of view. There might even be a place for you, God knows you are intelligent enough to adapt…….
As for your various political ramblings, I think somebody should contact Labour Party headquarters and let them know that they are losing the support of small provincial entrepreneurial capitalists. I’m sure they would be “shocked” to find that they are losing the battle for what must surely have been their traditional support base……



Changing Rules alone will NOT fix the road racing scene Mark.

Since you have chosen to speak for " Our PAID Staff member" Your Brother,( Which I truly respect)
as our CEO, how much sponsorship dollars did he manage to attrack into the sport in the last 12 months?

When I say HE. I mean him directly, NOT what Paul Stewart etc obtained.

I consider myself a Friend of BOTH the above parties, but with your post, i fealt compelled to reply with this.

I know for a fact, the Robert T and CKT spend hours of NO CHARGE out time, testing and developing NEW idea's, that help in our sport, what does the CEO do?

I am NOT a Paul P nor a MNZ basher, but things in that office need to change, and they need to change ASAP.

[Shaun]

" QUOTE FROM RT"

I have only skimmed over this and you will note that I have never questioned your brothers motivation in trying to grow the sport, just the way he is going about it. As for personal attacks heck Ive got a long way to go given what Ive evidenced from other parties, and as you say not always putting their name forward. If it has come across that way ( as personal ) then I do apologise as many people who dont know me personally may misread a little what I am driving at.
If Jim Tuckerman wins the presidency ( and I think that could be possible ) he may well restore a culture of democracy and consultation. If Paul can work with that then all good.
What I do resent is that technical advice borne of long experience is not given as much credence as it should. For these final two remarks I offer no apology.
__________________


I blaim your Father, he made you different, as KAY would tell us all

I know your intentions with your posts are intended in the best way, "AS YOU SAY' a major part of the problem people may have with you and some of your posts are, JUST THAT THEY DO NOT KNOW YOU PERSONALLY!

" Quote from RT"

What I do resent is that technical advice borne of long experience is not given as much credence as it should. For these final two remarks I offer no apology.

" This is YOUR trade, NOT HIS!

I want to see Paul Pav stay as CEO, and Jim Tuckerman and Sandra Perry together as the president/s!

Jim and Sandra together would be a dream come true for any form of racing in New Zealand, road, dirt, what ever smokes your tyres.

[Billy]

I have observed recent writings on this site and it is with some regret that I feel compelled to write here. This probably would have been better served as a personal message, but as Robert Taylor has chosen a public forum to write his opinions in, I feel that I must likewise reply in such a forum. Firstly let’s put all our cards on the table. I am the older brother of the current CEO of MNZ so I do not claim impartiality. But it seems that such a virtue is in short supply around here anyway, so let us continue in spite of it…… My brother will probably be annoyed that I have taken this course of action but unlike others who have both declared, and undeclared interests in the recent discussions, I have at least had the courtesy to disclose my identity. I am thus moved to address Robert as he has the courtesy to identify himself. The anonymous phantoms in the mist deserve no such respect.

I am saddened by the fact that I have come to lose respect for someone that I have admired as a very capable expert in the disciplines of motorcycle engineering, particularly suspension. Credit where it is due though, Robert has not chosen to hide behind the anonymity that the internet can provide. He has stuck his head up and voiced opinions that have become increasingly personal in nature and he has taken to playing the man and not the ball. He has apparently embarked on a campaign of personal vendetta and in doing so has lowered his standing in the eyes of many people. The CEO is facing a crisis in participation in a sport that he has been associated with and loved for many years. The quality of entries at the sharp end is not the issue, the quantity is. Competitor numbers in National Champs have fallen from the 2006 level of 35 entrants in the 600’s down to 26 entries in 2009 . The big capacity class has fallen from 23 to 15 entries in the same period. Back in 2005 there were 30 entries in the big capacity class. The CEO has seen fit to initiate responses to this perceived crisis. If he stood idly by and let the numbers in Road Racing’s premiere classes decline even further, the same hounds that bark and whine that he is trying to do something now would be howling for his blood, crying that he stood by and let it die…..
Paul’s job is to help grow motorcycling in New Zealand. MNZ is an organising body, not a branch of the trade. He has been told repeatedly by competitors that costs are too high, and in an effort to reduce these he has made proposals to reduce the cost of running a competitive machine. Robert Taylor has attempted to hijack the discussions about change and convert them into an argument about motorcycle suspension and chassis dynamics, an area I am sure that he is comfortable in discussing, but in doing so the debate is distracted from where it really needs to be. Robert has become an outspoken critic of the CEO. A small chorus of the disaffected have generalised it into derision of all MNZ staff. Among this group are people who have probably been disciplined for assaulting stewards and making potentially criminally libellous statements about MNZ staff. Robert claims that the CEO is acting in a dictatorial and single minded way, whilst he himself has proceeded to behave in precisely such a manner, closing his mind to all possibility of change to class rules that alter the current market for suspension products and expertise. He and others have expanded this reaction into a critique of all aspects of MNZ’s operations , even down to pathetic dribblings about car park spaces…. I doubt that their $120.00 would buy much in any specialist race suspension shop, yet for the small sum of their annual subscription ( only a part of MNZ funding ), these anonymous critics expect that they should control every last detail of the administration of a complex organisation. Perhaps Robert might be able to inform them about the subtleties of the provincial real estate market, but I imagine that the car park might have actually risen in value since it was purchased thus becoming an appreciating asset. Do not mistake outspokenness for correctness.

Roberts shock and alarm at the voluntary departure of Paul Stewart seems to have played a part in generating much of his animosity. It is sad to see attempts to turn Paul Stewart’s departure into some sort of Jihadi martyrdom as these detract from his achievements.

If you want to play the man Robert, consider the following. In developing a personal attack on PP you need to realise that you are attacking a man who spent every moment of his life between 1974 and 1998 breathing racing motorcycles. He spent every cent of disposable income for 24 years on his passion for racing motorcycles, risking his life and limbs , and sustaining serious injuries for the beautiful madness that is Road Racing. If I am not mistaken, you have always been a bench racer , risking at most, a pinched thumb from an errant shock spring….. Conversely your involvement in motorcycle racing over a similar period of time has mostly derived you income in some way or another, So don’t talk lightly about the love of motorcycle racing around here mate. Whilst enjoying a good income at present, Paul left behind corporate sector jobs that paid multiples of what he is probably on now, so he’s not in it for the money.

So now Robert hopes that a new President of MNZ might enable him to take the fight to the CEO...this will of course, immediately solve the entire issue !!( enter appropriate Tui beer advert slogan here )

Change needs to come to Road Racing in NZ. In my opinion, alignment with Australian Superstock rules would enable an affordable and competitive race series that would enable a two way traffic of riders and machines . If you think that would make boring racing just ask any of the riders and spectators who have seen it in Australia.

So before you dismiss me as a sycophantic sibling Robert, remember its not too late to change yourself and possibly your point of view. There might even be a place for you, God knows you are intelligent enough to adapt…….
As for your various political ramblings, I think somebody should contact Labour Party headquarters and let them know that they are losing the support of small provincial entrepreneurial capitalists. I’m sure they would be “shocked” to find that they are losing the battle for what must surely have been their traditional support base……

Yes very well said,It should also be noted at this point that Paul Stewart was not only upset with MNZ or PP as has been mentioned on this site,But also the lack of competitors at National level to the point that at Paeroa I was informed by 1 of his closest allies he was wondering why he was bothering.It should also be noted that under NO circumstances is Jim Tuckerman going to be able too run roughshod over the current CEO and Im sure Jim is intelligent enough to realise this,They are both very similar characters and the ensuing battle would do irepairable harm to motorcycling in this country.As I have stated in another thread,NO 1 person is going to be able too fix the immediate problems facing roadracing in particular and it definitely wont happen on this site.The most important thing everybody needs to do is vote at election time and then whatever the outcome,Good communication needs too take place with the approprate members ie roadrace commisioner etc.Only then will we see any positive outcome.While we are on the subject,I am 1 of the people who has been threatened with a defamation case by the past CEO (Trevor Gill),But I hide from nobody,My user name here is the name most people on the roadrace scene have known me by since 1971 including the CEO himself

[Mark Pav]

Robert, thank you for a reasonable reply outlining your feelings on the subject. No one expects any apology about you stating technical facts and opinions, that was never my the issue. All this aside ,I think that if I was ever silly enough to throw a leg over another racing motorcycle again, I would not hesitate to listen to your advice or question the quality of your products and I would probably look to you to supply suspension gear.........

[suzuki mama]

Mark ,
loyalty of any kind is a precious commodity and you have shown your support well for your brother, the simple fact is i dont agree with you but i value the effort you made My main problem with your posting is that once again if a member shows disagreement or criticises The Ceo ,Office or Board we are accused of Bashing ,and at the same time have to put up with some stinging attacksthreats of code of conduct violations and suspensions.

The mission statement of Mnz states it aims to make Motorcycling Fun ,safe and Fair, well its failed miserably , the office is dysfunctional and we have a CEO who takes everything personally .
I dont know exactly what the Ceo is supposed to do and in the interests of better communication and god knows we need it ,the time has come to move away from the secret society practices and give every member a copy of the job descriptions of not only the Ceo but of every one in the office .

The time has come for the Ceo to admit there have been major cock ups and present the members with a plan to implement more efficent and professional practices, at this point you and others are probably baying for my blood.

However im trying to save our sport before it implodes, the simple fact is its time for the Ceo to admit he made a mistake, dont attack Robert Taylor mark ,it demeans you ,Robert Taylor is one of the most professional people in the buisness, he along with other Industry members have been trying to get MNZ into the real world.

This continuing attack on him because he has dared to offer an opinion contrary to your brothers is one of the major things wrong with our sport , step outside the square and every attempt will be made to discredit you,

The membership is un happy and will vote for change! despite some pretty unhealthy practices being carried out to prevent that.
The Marlborough Club whose members given their experiences with the Ceo and Board are likely to seriously vote against current incumbents and 150 votes are not to be sneezed at,discovered this week that unless they dump their duly elected President ,the same man who has done the job for the last 2 years without mnz jumping up and down now find in an election year he is no longer suitable and either he goes or they are suspended.
Major public relations nightmare here!

With the best will in the world Mark ,this is no way to run an office or the board, you would wonder why with the Presidents job up for grabs and 2 of the Board members not standing it couldnt wait till new Board comes in

Im not saying the Ceo doesnt have a great love of the sport ,i for one have had really good discussions about the 125s but to often we see the existence of bullying tactics.
In the industry im in we take responsibility for our mistakes ,look not to repeat them and minimise the effect on our Industry.

The opportunity exists for our sport through the excellent relationship Jim Tuckerman has with the Industry to rebuild fences,and yet we have the office constantly undermining one of the most experienced and capable people mnz has ,those of lessor ability always feel threatened by those with the greater ability.

I admire you for your efforts Mark but i continue to disagree , the Ceos people skills are appalling, instead of bringing the sport together he has fractionated it,
However with a strong President and an adherence to the constitution i beleive the situation would improve

[GSVR]

I have only skimmed over this and you will note that I have never questioned your brothers motivation in trying to grow the sport, just the way he is going about it. As for personal attacks heck Ive got a long way to go given what Ive evidenced from other parties, and as you say not always putting their name forward. If it has come across that way ( as personal ) then I do apologise as many people who dont know me personally may misread a little what I am driving at.
If Jim Tuckerman wins the presidency ( and I think that could be possible ) he may well restore a culture of democracy and consultation. If Paul can work with that then all good.
What I do resent is that technical advice borne of long experience is not given as much credence as it should. For these final two remarks I offer no apology.

Robert himself was introduced to this site by a friend (Sensi) who informed him that someone on here was saying derogatory things about him. I have also seen Robert stick up for others who aren't members of this site when they have come under attack. eg Andrew Stroud.

Since he knows himself whats its like and condems it when others do I find it a little odd that he would condone or be a part of such a thing himself concerning the CEO.

Some don't seem to grasp the concept of racing bikes with less than perfect suspension and site many sound technical reasons why they can't be allowed. I can give many sound technical reasons why bikes should be fitted with ABS and traction control. Checking out of the debate.

[scott411]

Suzuki Mama, i strongly disagree with your opinion that Paul has not people skills, i have known Paul for about 15 years now, i have delt with him on many different levels, from selling him bikes and parts, to have him race at events i have run, to talking racing and old bikes in his shed, he has always talked to me in a professional and freindly manner, i am proud to call him a mate, i do not agree wiht every decision he has made, but i still support him, he is being used as a scape goat for every decision that is made, weather he made it or someone else did.

when Paul told me he was going for the CEO job i told him not really consider it carefully, as i beleived he could never win at the job, not because he did not have the skills, i think he is about as good a candidate as we can get, but because we have a history as a sport of not getting on, and with horrible infighting.

the current fight that is going on in this board mainly with the 600 and 1000cc classes is over a discussion paper that is put out, if you do not agree with it make a submission, don't attack the guy personally, put a reasoned arguement down and it will be looked at.

and if you go up and yell an attack from someone they will not comunitcate with you, if they stay and talk they will yell at you back,

Scott Wilkins

[Quasievil]

Sounds to me like all involved in this and the other threads are all on the same page, ie want whats best for Motorcycle racing in New Zealand, but typically Ego's as well as private agendas get in the way of it so the inevitable shit fight emerges within the masses.

In my view such things should be lead from the top based on research into the problems, cant see it happening though.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Whilst I think that is fantastic that in some way someone in relation to MNZ is speaking up here on these forums where a large percentage of Road racers are involved and are looking for answers there are two things that strike my mind with this,

1: I am somewhat confused as to why you are speaking on the behalf of Paul Pav. While it very loyal of you, I believe that as part of Paul's job he should be here speaking for himself, and if not over these forums It would be nice that the masses were informed and addressed by another means of communication.

2: Without reading into a great deal, this post has not answered any questions, infact from my point of view it is nothing more that a counter action to Roberts alleged personal attacks, even more so I believe that Paul should be speaking for himself, I am sure he is not so oblivious not to know about the discussions here.

It is becoming quite apparent that the members here have no shame in identifying themselves, and it would be very nice if the MNZ CEO would address what is happening here, as it looks to me like nothing is happening and there are questions that need answering.

Cheers,

-Glen Skachill

[avgas]

You now have made motorcycling as limited a sport as boxing.
90% arguing, 5% prep, 5% actual riding.

No longer can jo-blo role up to a track, pay his fee, hit the grid and actual look like he is having a good time.

If you didn't like that way - go to Qatar......race all year.

I'm sorry, but i feel NZ should be grass-roots racing. Training ground of the young who want WSB / MotoGP futures. If we can't have that here - whats the point. We are a speck off the arse of the world, yet i can't recall when was the last season i saw a kiwi flag at a WSB or GP (pre-moto) event.

Play nice - before someone bigger and better than me wants to put a bullet into this lame horse.

MNZ needs to do some homework, everyone else needs to back off a bit a be flexible for them.
fullstop

[Robert Taylor]

Sounds to me like all involved in this and the other threads are all on the same page, ie want whats best for Motorcycle racing in New Zealand, but typically Ego's as well as private agendas get in the way of it so the inevitable shit fight emerges within the masses.

In my view such things should be lead from the top based on research into the problems, cant see it happening though.

Actually that is a fair statement Quasi, we are all on the same page but have a different view on how to get there. For the record;

1) I dont disagree with the intent of a 2nd tier 600 class, I do disagree that limiting the oem suspension mods to spring changes only is '' a bridge too far''
To that end I made a detailed submission to MNZ and very transparently posted it on this site.
2) I appear to have been singled out a bit in Marks ( understandable )support of his sibling. Im big enough and ugly enough to take that on the chin. But the fact remains that discontented MNZ members started this plethora of so called ''MNZ bashing'' threads and many have chimed in, predominantly people very discontented with the current state of affairs. And yes I have participated because I have some pretty close to the action knowledge. If that has been taken as a personal insult to the affected parties I do then sincerely apologise.
3) Take note that I have also been battling some of Pauls proposals in ''hard copy'' press, this issue has not come about overnight.
4) I spoke to Paul Pavletich late today ( not only about this subject ) and I can state that we are more than capable of having cordial dialogue and are not tearing each others throats out.

We loosely discussed a ''thinktank'' meeting of a mix of experienced / not so experienced riders, industry people, technicians etc.

[Mark Pav]

Mark ,
loyalty of any kind is a precious commodity and you have shown your support well for your brother, the simple fact is i dont agree with you but i value the effort you made My main problem with your posting is that once again if a member shows disagreement or criticises The Ceo ,Office or Board we are accused of Bashing ,and at the same time have to put up with some stinging attacksthreats of code of conduct violations and suspensions.

The mission statement of Mnz states it aims to make Motorcycling Fun ,safe and Fair, well its failed miserably , the office is dysfunctional and we have a CEO who takes everything personally .
I dont know exactly what the Ceo is supposed to do and in the interests of better communication and god knows we need it ,the time has come to move away from the secret society practices and give every member a copy of the job descriptions of not only the Ceo but of every one in the office .

The time has come for the Ceo to admit there have been major cock ups and present the members with a plan to implement more efficent and professional practices, at this point you and others are probably baying for my blood.

However im trying to save our sport before it implodes, the simple fact is its time for the Ceo to admit he made a mistake, dont attack Robert Taylor mark ,it demeans you ,Robert Taylor is one of the most professional people in the buisness, he along with other Industry members have been trying to get MNZ into the real world.

This continuing attack on him because he has dared to offer an opinion contrary to your brothers is one of the major things wrong with our sport , step outside the square and every attempt will be made to discredit you,

The membership is un happy and will vote for change! despite some pretty unhealthy practices being carried out to prevent that.
The Marlborough Club whose members given their experiences with the Ceo and Board are likely to seriously vote against current incumbents and 150 votes are not to be sneezed at,discovered this week that unless they dump their duly elected President ,the same man who has done the job for the last 2 years without mnz jumping up and down now find in an election year he is no longer suitable and either he goes or they are suspended.
Major public relations nightmare here!

With the best will in the world Mark ,this is no way to run an office or the board, you would wonder why with the Presidents job up for grabs and 2 of the Board members not standing it couldnt wait till new Board comes in

Im not saying the Ceo doesnt have a great love of the sport ,i for one have had really good discussions about the 125s but to often we see the existence of bullying tactics.
In the industry im in we take responsibility for our mistakes ,look not to repeat them and minimise the effect on our Industry.

The opportunity exists for our sport through the excellent relationship Jim Tuckerman has with the Industry to rebuild fences,and yet we have the office constantly undermining one of the most experienced and capable people mnz has ,those of lessor ability always feel threatened by those with the greater ability.

I admire you for your efforts Mark but i continue to disagree , the Ceos people skills are appalling, instead of bringing the sport together he has fractionated it,
However with a strong President and an adherence to the constitution i beleive the situation would improve

Suzuki Mama, are you aware that the business with the Marlborough club relates to a member who is under exclusion for assaulting a steward i and is actually banned by regulation from attending the MNZ meeting. That is the rules. It is not a discretionary matter for the CEO or anyone else.

[The Chow]

Sounds to me like all involved in this and the other threads are all on the same page, ie want whats best for Motorcycle racing in New Zealand, but typically Ego's as well as private agendas get in the way of it so the inevitable shit fight emerges within the masses.

In my view such things should be lead from the top based on research into the problems, cant see it happening though.

Yes it is time that things changed in the top position.We now need a strong person and yes I think Jim is the guy (as Previously stated).

But it is also time now to stop attacking each other and focus on the issues. The dirty laundry has been aired and I am proud to say I helped get some of the concerns and tell the people out there of some of the issues that have happened

And before anyone says any differently , I would have never said anything in a public forum if I hadn't been sure of what has gone on and been party to some of the issues first hand.

For my part I apologise for any attacks that may have been taken personally by people , but unfortunately some times these things happen to help change happen.

To Paul Pav and the office staff , It will not be the end of the world , should there be a change at the top. I have known Jim for all his faults (and by god don't we all have those) and also for all his abilities.

I got into motorcycles some 37 years ago , for fun first and fame(ha ha) second. Over the years I have made many friends and also met many good people , but my overwhelming desire has always been to see this incredible sport of motorcycling prosper.

The change in the old style of governance of MNZ at the beginning of this decade was needed , but unfortunately I feel it has been a failure. Time to re-look at this once the elections are over perhaps?

Anyway at least things are now more out in open.

Oh and by the way MY NAME IS IAN DAWSON:scooter:

[roadracingoldfart]

Ohhh fuck .... another , "the all blacks lost the world cup thread"
Sack the coach and manager , we can start again aye !!!





.

[Robert Taylor]

Mark I do feel I need to reply to a couple of things you said and this doesnt mean I took what you said personally.
Yes I have always as you say been a ''bench racer''. I never ever had the motivation to race but always had the motivation to be involved with the technology. Thats probably also because I realised I would be slow! I think everyone is important in racing, not only the riders. Without their mechanics, benefactors, marshals, Mom making the tea etc etc there would be no racing.
And yes I do derive an income from it but I do not have a holiday home in the Bahamas from the proceeds nor do I have collection of desirable cars in the garage. Take note that in first world European and North American countries you have to pay a suspension tuner a not insubstanial sum of cash just to merely check your sag ratios and clickers at a meeting. Here we do it for free for anyone that comes and asks. As one well known road racer has intimated to me many times over the years ''I dont believe how much set up info etc you give away for free''. My point, we are all doing a lot out of goodwill to try and foster the sport we collectively enjoy.

[Brian d marge]

You now have made motorcycling as limited a sport as boxing.
90% arguing, 5% prep, 5% actual riding.

No longer can jo-blo role up to a track, pay his fee, hit the grid and actual look like he is having a good time.

If you didn't like that way - go to Qatar......race all year.

I'm sorry, but i feel NZ should be grass-roots racing. Training ground of the young who want WSB / MotoGP futures. If we can't have that here - whats the point. We are a speck off the arse of the world, yet i can't recall when was the last season i saw a kiwi flag at a WSB or GP (pre-moto) event.

Play nice - before someone bigger and better than me wants to put a bullet into this lame horse.

MNZ needs to do some homework, everyone else needs to back off a bit a be flexible for them.
fullstop

yup agreed here, while I wouldn't quite agree with the impact NZ has made at even the top level ...there a a few top flight kiwis on the the gp circuit and in positions of influence , ( I think one was reciently sacked from a F1 team?? ), they have got there buy there own smarts I doubt the teams came to NZ looking !

I have been playing around with bikes here in Japan for about 10 years now. I have met a few very interesting people. So from the outside looking into NZ this is what I think ,,,( and it does need to change , dead in the water is a term that comes to mind when I thinks of the NZ superbike series,,,,) so Just a few notes on what is going on IMHO;

I'm not interested in who said what to whom and I don't know these people from a bar of soap, neither do the people who hold the purse strings in other countries . ( N Z is popular because the tv talent on the box here , the one who was pissed as a chook and went dancing in the fountain ....had a program all about NZ , I think paid for by Zespri ! )

What I do know is 15 bikes isn't much cop. Let's face it, when you look at it in black and white, it's a lot of blokes going around in circles on motorcycles. Having just spent the other day at Motegi ( having been both sides of the sport , from the pits and as a spectator ) .

To see Elias hanging on to the evil handling Honda was great , my sons were playing with a KTM flag and wife fell asleep in the sun after unsuccessfully looking for some sweets in her handbag as in they couldn't careless about the bikes. My oldest supports the oranji bike ....

After the racing we spent some time in the mobility land where oldest son ( 4 ) beat daddy and youngest son on the bumper cars ( anyone reading between the lines yet..)

So here I am a young lad of seventeen ( I wish ) and I want to be the next Valentino Rossi , where do I start? Join my local club , saw the poster in the bike shop when dreaming over the unaffordable bikes, then when home and used the Internet.

Let's say I am super dedicated and get a part time job and I am very lucky , my dad helps me, a lot of riders at the top had tremendous help from family. About now you can see where I am going with this, I have had the choice of a second hand dirt bike and hooning around on the local waste land and if the bug bites entering a few LOCAL events ( cost $50 including gas) and if I get serious then I start trading up to a newer bike ( even then I can go to the local bike shop and get a newish competitive bike on the never never and still pay only a few dollars a week even if you add three and chains and crash damage it's still cheap.

If I get my act together train hard and apply my skills then feasibly on that same bike I could give one of the king brothers a run for their money , or place in the Fink rally of Australia.

So what's all this to do with road racing , well yes I can do the very same as the above with a road bike ( well you could ). But when I was seventeen I could only afford a ratty old XL 250 motorsport for $850 and that was on the never never.

So who and what is Road Racing here for ?

The few who can afford or are lucky with support.???( yes it's possible to do by working hard etc but for the majority of people it's a sport. A sport , something to be enjoyed a the weekends with a few mates. A few of those take it to a higher level. OR the spectators??? as in now its a entertainment system. ( or even as some companies use it , as a development system, FCC??( clutches ) MUI??( sports drink )

So let's start with a clean sheet, we need a sport where EVERYBODY can get something out of it , Mum: free from kids for a day. Dad : insert Tim the tool-man Taylor here. Riders: entertainment within the disposable income. The local economy; gasoline , subway, pies coffee sales etc. The bike industry, cheap universal fairings, bungs , these need to be universal to be mass produced to be cheap. Other industry , there are thing on bikes that have a wider use , for example suspension is a hydrualic system that can suffer from cavitation ,, Pumps have the same problem, Vibration kills electrics bikes have electrics ,,, etc data logging Racers NEED info .... so do procces controlled industries.

Finally the bikes, let's imagine as a rider I want to be the next Vale, well it doesn't matter what you think. You have to be in the right place at the right time to impress the people that matter, ie you have more chance in Japan, Australia or greater still Europe.
So what are teams looking for, well the teams (I know and these arnt very big , such as NITRON Shocks ) are in business and require the rider to be the same , to provide accurate reliable feedback and to provide consistent lap times that are within a certain percentage ( I think it's even written into some contracts ).

This goes for engineers as well, you just can't rock up and waive a bit of paper around, if you do a good job you will be noticed.

So we need a cheap framework to provide the above, so I think with ONE small change and some time given by some experienced people this framework is in place already.
Mini Moto , kids no changes
Buckets , start introducing proffesionalism here
Post classics ( here is the change ) call it naked bikes and introduce bracket racing is classes within a class as long as they are with in a percentage of the leaders time to make it safe. Any aged bikes such as Zephers and Z1000 and honda CB750s
Motards ( because some like a bit of sideways ! )
Finally supersport 600 with allowances for triples and twins ( datalogging and suspension etc allowed, THIS becomes the premier class and would allow, or give the rider, engineer the skills needed when moving overseas. ( the logic being that anyone investing this sort of money must be either rich, mad or serious ). an early 90s CBR 600 are down on power but you can pick up ST600 race bikes over here for less than 200 000 yen 2003 ish.

Why no larger bikes, cost. lighter less powerful bikes are not so hard on consumables.

You can see if most of the sport remains affordable then the grids and in time ( with correct advertising , none of this heavy metal thunder bikes all for the tough man , try aiming it at the women,, eg have a relaxing time while the kids play .. Even the biggest kid )
Once people realize there is money to be made by supporting ... The race has been won, the aim is to generate atmosphere and I can get something out of this !!!


Stephen

PS , Paeroa , the IOM of Australatia ( Macau, I know but Paeroa is better ! )

[suzuki mama]

Suzuki Mama, are you aware that the business with the Marlborough club relates to a member who is under exclusion for assaulting a steward i and is actually banned by regulation from attending the MNZ meeting. That is the rules. It is not a discretionary matter for the CEO or anyone else.

I am aware that there is discussion as to its validity as at the time of one of the alleged offences the member concerned was not actually a member. i dont believe he renewed his membership since and legally if he wasnt actually a member you cant ban him. one of those gray areas in no way do i condone his actions but the rule of law must prevail .He continued on as club president for a further two years,you
dont have to be a member of mnz to hold office in a club .again this appears to be and this is my point something that was allowed to slide till with AGM coming up became important .
This is bad practice you cant condone something for two years then state its unacceptable .
At the first instance 2 years ago it should have been put to bed,
Hope this explains my point

[scott411]

I am aware that there is discussion as to its validity as at the time of one of the alleged offences the member concerned was not actually a member. i dont believe he renewed his membership since and legally if he wasnt actually a member you cant ban him. one of those gray areas in no way do i condone his actions but the rule of law must prevail .He continued on as club president for a further two years,you
dont have to be a member of mnz to hold office in a club .again this appears to be and this is my point something that was allowed to slide till with AGM coming up became important .
This is bad practice you cant condone something for two years then state its unacceptable .
At the first instance 2 years ago it should have been put to bed,
Hope this explains my point


if you look up the sports tribunal result on this, they rejected it on a techincality, (he filed the appeal to late)

[Dodgy]

There is probably a lot to be said for the 'oh fuck it' attitude?

As in 'oh fuck it', I will just pay my fees, levies, entry fees and just go racing? Seems that there is no magic bullet to please everyone?

I guess that if a riders federation was formed (just a syndicate of like minded racers), purchased public liability insurance, hired a track and had race meetings - riders could then vote with their feet and no longer attend MNZ meetings? I remember we raced at a 'black' meeting like this down south a few years back and had a great old time...

[Robert Taylor]

Robert himself was introduced to this site by a friend (Sensi) who informed him that someone on here was saying derogatory things about him. I have also seen Robert stick up for others who aren't members of this site when they have come under attack. eg Andrew Stroud.

Since he knows himself whats its like and condems it when others do I find it a little odd that he would condone or be a part of such a thing himself concerning the CEO.

Some don't seem to grasp the concept of racing bikes with less than perfect suspension and site many sound technical reasons why they can't be allowed. I can give many sound technical reasons why bikes should be fitted with ABS and traction control. Checking out of the debate.

Well if nothing else the respective threads were started by very concerned people and despite all the bitching its certainly raised peoples awareness big time. Thats a good thing. I knew Paul Pavletich would be aware of the threads ( as do others ) and he has had people defending him. He probably chooses not to engage in forums and I can well understand such reasoning. I spoke to him today ( as I have done so on many occassions in the past ) and quite openly.
Anyway, if people want to fit ABS and traction control, if they want to run aftermarket shocks, if they want to run oem shocks let them go for it. In the end event its deciding about what is a bridge too far.
Do you still have that GSXR shock that you ran in your SV at some stage?
If so, AND THIS IS A GENUINE OFFER, consider sending it to me, completely free of charge I will modify the shim stacks so that it will work better in that bike. If it can be better again then we will incrementally go further. I would like you to see what is possible at reasonable projected cost and then unbiasedly report on it.......................?????

[Kiwi Graham]

Wow! cards are being put on the table here.
Who am I? an ex pomy racer who moved to NZ in 2001.
I've not raced here but have been a close follower of the racing here and supported many bikers that race or use the track day experience to get their buzz.
I've worked with Paul P on track days and stood in his garage with eyes wide open at his collection of all things two wheels, I've read with awe the knowledge that Rob T has about making thing go up and down and would/will be the only person I will trust to supply my bouncy bits, so know both are without doubt passionate about the sport.

With this amount of passion and commitment together with the many others out there such as Jim T etc shouldnt we be working together and form a way forward for MNZ.

To shoot the the lot and start again has to be a waste of resourses and immense tallent. I belive Paul to be an excellent well known voice for motorcyle sport and should be involved. I belive he is focused on doing what is belived to be the right thing. Bashing people who have spent the majority of their life in the 'buisness' and since giving up the nuts and bolts are willing to continue to work for us has to be appreciated.

Its clear things could be better, lets work together to improve things. Dialog, communication and debate is what is required. Everyone wants to see the best we can achieve and should be able to voice there opinion in a safe way and not fear being slated. Only when everyone has had a say can a way forward be sought. I dont know which is the best forum for this but KB may be as good as any, anonymous or not! But lets keep it clean and non personal.

[The Chow]

Wow! cards are being put on the table here.
Who am I? an ex pomy racer who moved to NZ in 2001.
I've not raced here but have been a close follower of the racing here and supported many bikers that race or use the track day experience to get their buzz.
I've worked with Paul P on track days and stood in his garage with eyes wide open at his collection of all things two wheels, I've read with awe the knowledge that Rob T has about making thing go up and down and would/will be the only person I will trust to supply my bouncy bits, so know both are without doubt passionate about the sport.

With this amount of passion and commitment together with the many others out there such as Jim T etc shouldnt we be working together and form a way forward for MNZ.

To shoot the the lot and start again has to be a waste of resourses and immense tallent. I belive Paul to be an excellent well known voice for motorcyle sport and should be involved. I belive he is focused on doing what is belived to be the right thing. Bashing people who have spent the majority of their life in the 'buisness' and since giving up the nuts and bolts are willing to continue to work for us has to be appreciated.

Its clear things could be better, lets work together to improve things. Dialog, communication and debate is what is required. Everyone wants to see the best we can achieve and should be able to voice there opinion in a safe way and not fear being slated. Only when everyone has had a say can a way forward be sought. I dont know which is the best forum for this but KB may be as good as any, anonymous or not! But lets keep it clean and non personal.

Agreed:rockon:

[cowpoos]

Do you still have that GSXR shock that you ran in your SV at some stage?
If so, AND THIS IS A GENUINE OFFER, consider sending it to me, completely free of charge I will modify the shim stacks so that it will work better in that bike. If it can be better again then we will incrementally go further. I would like you to see what is possible at reasonable projected cost and then unbiasedly report on it.......................?????

Sorry off subject.....BUT!!

I can't believe what you have just offered!! especially the way this member has acted toward you of late...infact I'm speechless!

[budda]

at the risk of coming across as the wanker some are SURE I am, a lot of the posts re MNZ were, I'm sure, never MEANT to be a personal attack, thats the PERCEPTION of a few who arent/werent aware of all relevant facts

I've been saying for YEARS that MNZ should have a "forum" on its own site, accessed by using your race licence number as user name or password. This would ensure that only those involved and were ENTITLED to an opinion could publicly state it

But now that so many have entered these details on another thread here , some dodgy bugger could potentially hijack it and lead discussion off on a tangent - now where have I heard that before ........

[scrivy]

some dodgy bugger could potentially hijack it and lead discussion off on a tangent - now where have I heard that before ........

I understand some on here do that............ :shifty:

[SixPackBack]

Bitchy!....fook me its like a womens knitting club AGM.

[suzuki mama]

if you look up the sports tribunal result on this, they rejected it on a techincality, (he filed the appeal to late)
Scott if the only reason for rejecting it was paper work was late then under natural justice the member would be strongly advised to contact the office of the ombudsman and get a good lawyer to look at this, Because at the end of the day and i realise you have a vested interest in this justice in its entirety has not been served, the member may due to ill advisement to mnz be able to show a sustained period of harassment and ill feeling towards him which has resulted in other clubmembers 2 years ago losing their proxy votes, he could then also show that mnz accepted the status quo and allowed his club to function outside the regulations for a considerable period of time. if he was then able to show that the recent action resulted after back door attempts by the President to influence voting in the club elections without officially enforming the club in writing prior to the elections then a very interesting scenario could enfold.
Personally for the good of the sport i think the tme has come to draw a line in the sand on this one call it quits by both parties and move on .however i doubt mnz has the sense currently to do this

[scott411]

the member did not like the decision of MNZ, under there rules he had time to appeal to the sports tribunal, he did not do it in time, but i feel we could argue this for a while, and still not agree on much, more lawyers are not going to make it better in my opinion

your right, it is time this to be done with, both sides need to stop attacking each other, but both feel agrieved by each other, i do not see either side waving white flags at the moment, do you?

[slowpoke]

I can't help wondering why RT has been singled out personally.

He is under no obligation to MNZ, has a right to express an opinion and has stated that opinion a hell of a lot more politely than virtually anybody else on here. What's more his arguments are substantiated with the reasoning behind them. I have no problem with counter arguments or discussion of his reasoning but to attack a person for voicing an opinion doesn't sit well with me. To mangle an overused phrase: you may disagree with someones opinons but you should support their right to say it.

No one is arguing that Paul Pav doesn't love the sport, or doesn't have it's best interest at heart, or isn't putting in a huge effort....but, there seem to be a substantial number of road racing MNZ members who are extremely concerned/frustrated/disappointed/angry with MNZ's response to the various problems afflicting our branch of the sport.

This is undeniable and RT is simply one of many.

[popelli]

I have know Robert Taylor since the early eighties

As far as I am concerned he is a top guy who exhibits more common sense than most people and both Mark Pav and the personal attack on Robert should be removed from this site

[GSVR]

Well if nothing else the respective threads were started by very concerned people and despite all the bitching its certainly raised peoples awareness big time. Thats a good thing. I knew Paul Pavletich would be aware of the threads ( as do others ) and he has had people defending him. He probably chooses not to engage in forums and I can well understand such reasoning. I spoke to him today ( as I have done so on many occassions in the past ) and quite openly.
Anyway, if people want to fit ABS and traction control, if they want to run aftermarket shocks, if they want to run oem shocks let them go for it. In the end event its deciding about what is a bridge too far.
Do you still have that GSXR shock that you ran in your SV at some stage?
If so, AND THIS IS A GENUINE OFFER, consider sending it to me, completely free of charge I will modify the shim stacks so that it will work better in that bike. If it can be better again then we will incrementally go further. I would like you to see what is possible at reasonable projected cost and then unbiasedly report on it.......................?????

"You can check out any time you like but you can never leave"

You talk of a bridge too far. One thing that concerns me with classes that are presumably being introduced to attract new riders is they are too close to the class that already exists that instead of new riders coming into the sport (or moving up from a lower class) all that happens is established riders from the existing or a higher class come into the new class and dominate it thus defeating the purpose.

Only allowing standard suspension and other limitations would make the class unappealing to quick riders in the existing class but slower riders will find it harder to reach the limits of these machines and at that time it may be time to move on up to the more open class.

At the nationals we have world class riders competeing. Is it realistic to expect amature riders to spend at the same level and ride almost as fast. Would the sport be better served by having more classes catering for riders that just want to enjoy the sport and progress to a higher more technical class if they feel they have outgrown a low spec bike and have the talent.

As for good suspension I am under no illussion of how much better a standard SV can be made to perform having ridden a top bike on several occassions. I'm also aware that a standard SV is quite capable of being riden hard with a few cheap but effective mods. The SV class years ago confirms this. Some of the arguements re Tyrewear Safety etc just don't stack up.


Thanks for the offer but if I was to upgrade my suspension I would most likely fit an Ohlins unit. I'm perfectly happy running a standard OEM shock for the road and occassional trackday.

If you want to do something for me Robert you could try answering direct simple questions with a direct concise answer and also refrain from abusive namecalling and innuendo. You are well aware of the direct questions you avoided becuase they didn't fit in with the way you wanted to take the threads involved. We will never agree on this matter.

The actually reasons why people choose not to ride at the nationals may have little to do with the bike rules. Maybe its more to do with the perception the nationals are for elite riders that only club race to prepare their bikes for such an event. Maybe the nationals should be made to be percieved as a celebration of motorcycling, a festival for anyone that loves to race and spectate but still have the main focus on the quest for champions.

And just for evryone here that thinks I have some vendetta against Robert I don't. I have no animosity towards him and we will no doubt have a talk next time I see him at the track but he's always so dam busy.

BTW. How often do the 600 nationals riders revalve their shocks? Is it for every track? Does everyone revalve for Teretonga then change back for Ruapuna? I'm genuinely interested so I can pass on this information when questioned about it..

[Scouse]

Sorry off subject.....BUT!!

I can't believe what you have just offered!! especially the way this member has acted toward you of late...infact I'm speechless!I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

[suzuki mama]

Scott,
every one is aware of your close connection to the Ceo and i for one will openly state how pleased i am you have such a good relationship .

I have no doubt that on a personal level The Ceo has great skills however its on the Professional level there are problems.

To me a Ceo must be able to work with people on all levels, just because he either doesnt like them or disagrees with their opinions does not entitle him to belittle ignore or threaten them.

It is his job to actively encourage greater participation in our sport ,foster a Business relationship with importers and distributors in fact all in our sport and to be impartial when dealing with contractors ,bike magazines ,clubs etc

There are to many incidences where this hasnt happened . no one is saying get rid of him ,that would not be the attitude of a responsible employer ,what many are saying is ,what is the Board doing to improve the manner in which the Ceo deals on this level, What suggestions has the Board made to enable him to mend fences,what help have they given him to get the office back working within our constitution.?

To often the Ceo has made personal remarks im sure like Noel Curr and his e-mail to some one he felt was not going to forward it on .and this is not a dig at you scott, im first to say what noel did was wrong ,however what happened next was unacceptible to me

Noel Told one person ,if it had been me and hindsight always makes us rightous, i would have gone straight back and said sorry noel unacceptible,
if i hear of you saying this to anyone else i will go to the board.

What happened was that half of motorcycling got to see or hear about the email and the story grew like chinese whispers,and 40 000 dollars later is still haunting the sport.

My point is ,there are better ways of dealing with people, you cannot expect the membership to give support to a person who on one hand says Noel Curr should not have said this and on the other makes statements about who he can or cant work with.

The Ceo must be able to work with everyone,

[Tony.OK]

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

What a fuckn stupid thing to say..............................anyone that knows Robert knows that he is all about his work, so much so that he is willing to do things like this to try and get his point across at no cost.
Ever been to a meeting and seen how frantic he is? His major failing is that he wants everyone to have the best setup, chance of doing better, with whatever equipment they have......mostly for free.........and simply not having enough time for everyone.........how many could you say that about?

FFS..............:brick:

[sidecar bob]

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

Get real, Some of us are simply passionate about our work & want others to undertsand what a difference we can make with our input.
Clearly you have no concept of goodwill, generosity or passion for a paticular topic.
I play the same game with BMW cars, because i am fully confident of what i am doing.

[Robert Taylor]

"You can check out any time you like but you can never leave"

You talk of a bridge too far. One thing that concerns me with classes that are presumably being introduced to attract new riders is they are too close to the class that already exists that instead of new riders coming into the sport (or moving up from a lower class) all that happens is established riders from the existing or a higher class come into the new class and dominate it thus defeating the purpose.

Only allowing standard suspension and other limitations would make the class unappealing to quick riders in the existing class but slower riders will find it harder to reach the limits of these machines and at that time it may be time to move on up to the more open class.

At the nationals we have world class riders competeing. Is it realistic to expect amature riders to spend at the same level and ride almost as fast. Would the sport be better served by having more classes catering for riders that just want to enjoy the sport and progress to a higher more technical class if they feel they have outgrown a low spec bike and have the talent.

As for good suspension I am under no illussion of how much better a standard SV can be made to perform having ridden a top bike on several occassions. I'm also aware that a standard SV is quite capable of being riden hard with a few cheap but effective mods. The SV class years ago confirms this. Some of the arguements re Tyrewear Safety etc just don't stack up.


Thanks for the offer but if I was to upgrade my suspension I would most likely fit an Ohlins unit. I'm perfectly happy running a standard OEM shock for the road and occassional trackday.

If you want to do something for me Robert you could try answering direct simple questions with a direct concise answer and also refrain from abusive namecalling and innuendo. You are well aware of the direct questions you avoided becuase they didn't fit in with the way you wanted to take the threads involved. We will never agree on this matter.

The actually reasons why people choose not to ride at the nationals may have little to do with the bike rules. Maybe its more to do with the perception the nationals are for elite riders that only club race to prepare their bikes for such an event. Maybe the nationals should be made to be percieved as a celebration of motorcycling, a festival for anyone that loves to race and spectate but still have the main focus on the quest for champions.

And just for evryone here that thinks I have some vendetta against Robert I don't. I have no animosity towards him and we will no doubt have a talk next time I see him at the track but he's always so dam busy.

BTW. How often do the 600 nationals riders revalve their shocks? Is it for every track? Does everyone revalve for Teretonga then change back for Ruapuna? I'm genuinely interested so I can pass on this information when questioned about it..

Cheers, this will require a similarly lengthy reply and I will do so tonight.

[Robert Taylor]

Gary, thanks for your response. This will require a similarly lengthy, detailed reply. Will do so tonight.

[Robert Taylor]

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

Totally incorrect. If he took up my offer and it didnt work so well then everyone on this forum would know. Commercial risk that I am prepared to go through, simple.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=GSVR;1129190249]"You can check out any time you like but you can never leave"

You talk of a bridge too far, etc...........

Reply as promised earlier....

Yes I can relate to your first paragraph. I can recall there are certain racing formula overseas that within certain classes you have to be new to it and are only able to compete within that class for a set period before moving on. That obviously works well overseas but as always in NZ we always have the issue of a small population. I think its also relevant to say that if there are too many classes then it just dilutes other fields, several people have eluded to that.

Standard suspension you will get away with with the lower powered bikes ( e.g if there was still a 250cc production class.) But when you get the higher powered bikes 600cc and upwards the tyre degradation and chassis pitch control issues magnify somewhat. My reasons are as you know within the copy of a submission to MNZ that I posted on this site.
SV650s are another case in point, the link ratio is ''commuter comfort friendly'' and even when we supply a more standard ( non TTX ) type Ohlins shock for these we have to make some dramatic changes to give the ride height control required and save the tyres. Candidly, this took quite a while to work out. But the benefits and speed over oem are obvious.

I have no problem with a second tier 600 class. Perhaps a better term to use would have been ''a line in the sand'' rather than ''a bridge too far''. Again my reasons for allowing revalving of the oem shocks has been amply stated in that same submission and I note that you yourself saw at least some sense in it. Note my elaboration about this further on in this post.

I resolutely stand by my tyre wear arguments with respect to the higher powered bikes, especially. Respectfully, we see an enormous amount of suspension units per annum that we revalve to give both better control and to solve repeat rapid tyre wear / stress problems. More and more are coming from everyday track day riders .

That SV class a few years back was in its infancy, as it developed more and more with people becoming more competitive I believe we would have seen more crashing. At minimum I believe they should have allowed emulators and springs in the front end, if only to save ongoing crash repair bills as the front ends would have felt more secure. I guess you can counter that by saying theyd then crash at higher speeds! But heck, we fit emulators to a lot of SVs that only get used on the road, beacuse the riders are dissatisfied with their lack of secure feel.

The shock revalve offer was totally sincere and genuine with no agenda other than for yourself to experience what is possible with a standard GSXR shock and no limitation on you reporting it exactly as it was, good or bad. As an aside its not so easy to upgrade the standard SV650 single tube stock shock as it doesnt have a reservoir and a base compression valve to assist in maintaining suitable internal pressure balance. Possible but a bit of a can of worms.

Actually I genuinely dont recall those questions without laboriously dredging back through god only knows how many posts. Frankly, I get so many questions via many ways of delivering them that it often gets to brain overload on a daily basis. Perhaps as has been suggested by a racing friend I am too free with information. Questions are good as long as they are not ''loaded'' or as I brutally eluded to you are there to serve a twisted interpretation. Straight questions, straight answers. I had a number of PMs, one questioning how I have so much patience and another wondering why it took me so long to lose my rag. But hey Im not bitter and twisted about it and Im answering all your questions in good spirit.

I think many people are intimidated about doing the Nationals and I hear what you are saying. Arguably its a hell of a cost to travel from one end of the country to the other and factor in all the accomodation, meals etc etc. And maybe there are many competitors who would rather be on holiday during January. I know I would rather be doing just that! Myriad reasons and they cannot all be blamed on class rules. I also think Bears should be included in Nationals.

Apologies for being so busy!!

Thats a good question re 600 revalves. Most of the top riders do so and part of that is because we are there, because we are willing to do so and top riders are always seeking a further edge. I can recall Shaun harris and I doing a lot of suspension dyno work on his CBR600 a few years back, we both learnt a lot about damping curves required for road race and tyre performance preservation. This accumulation of knowledge and new ideas never stops.That is the nature of the beast and I am proud of having played in part in lifting the game, consistent with what has happened in other worldwide markets. With the exception that it has been 'New Zealandised i.e much more of the backup is done out of sheer goodwill. Also proud of that but we also have to at least cover costs! Arguably then many of the distributor teams ( who we have contracts with ) effectively subsidise the ''privateer ''riders as we always find at least some time to help people who request same. It is never ever regarded as a cash cow on the day, if we sell something then thats great! Nothing wrong in that.
Teretonga is a track that requires reasonably aggressive valving and heavier springing to keep the rear end up in its stroke and away from the ''accelerative part'' of the link ratio during the considerable time the bikes spend at high speed banked over in the sweeper. This sweeper goes on for longer than the Parabolica at Monza. The surface is similiar to Taupo and similarly cold so compound choices and tyre pressures are also critical. Up the road Timaru throws up its own challenges with a more amenable surface with many flat turns and the bikes are always on their sides. Softer springing with more preload and often less aggressive valving. Ruapuna is different again and there is a lot of emphasis on getting the front end right as theres heavy braking going on. Manfield is similiar in many ways to Ruapuna but when we get to Pukekohe throw all the settings out of the window. Nasty bumps and elevation change over the hill, general reduction in spring rate and valving and lots of emphasis on getting rebound control within the right window.
Factor in also that we are always playing with geometry, fork position in clamps and rear ride height length. Frankly, the aftermarket rear shocks allow such changes infinitely more quickly than oem. Invariably we always have new stuff to test from the factory and this year we tested new front end stuff in Sam Smiths bike at Pukekohe. That was the reason for his top form there and not the deliberate red herring of our ''electronic'' rear shock. The reactions were interesting.
The TTX stuff we now predominantly work with makes life easy in that we can do a trackside revalve very quickly as they are designed to be that way, spring changes are also dead easy. As it is also with the FGK cartridges.
Candidly we are rather less excited about revalving oem shocks trackside as they are not exactly designed to be serviced so quickly and unlike TTX we do not have a large inventory of springs for such shocks, which are also rather less uniform. Even with just the spring issue I think those who have proposed the rule change have not considered the further logistics required.
People with our product and backup have had service a lot more cheaply than would be the case in first world European / North American countries. For one they would be expected to carry their own spring alternative rates for varying tracks. How many competitors in this country have stiffer springs for ''one off'' tracks such as Teretonga and softer ''wet'' springs etc? How many have the specific tools to effect the changes? And that also includes oem....

As I have stated I am personally not averse to cost controlled classes as long as the line in the sand is not placed in a poorly determined position, devoid of due diligence in listening to experienced experts who have worked at the coalface confronting the issues

. It will be possible to have a decent valving spec for oem that allied with spring changes will cover most eventualities. But I for one am certainly not going to carry a huge spring inventory as I do with Ohlins to exchange trackside, competitors will have to purchase and carry their own, that is fair and reasonable.

With the benefit of considerable knowledge learnt from Ohlins, Race Tech and Traxxion Dynamics we are able to apply mods into oem shocks / forks at reasonable cost. Having a suspension dyno assists in determination of ideal base damping curves.

Level 1 Service, revalve, respring oem suspension

Level 2 Fit internal upspec components ( eg Race Tech ) into oem suspension

Level 3 Fit high quality aftermarket shock units / cartridges

That is the philosophy we have developed and I believe most volume suspension tuners would also operate on. Suspension solutions for all budgets.

I am happy to field more questions but let me catch my breath first!

[GIXser]

What a fuckn stupid thing to say..............................anyone that knows Robert knows that he is all about his work, so much so that he is willing to do things like this to try and get his point across at no cost.
Ever been to a meeting and seen how frantic he is? His major failing is that he wants everyone to have the best setup, chance of doing better, with whatever equipment they have......mostly for free.........and simply not having enough time for everyone.........how many could you say that about?

FFS..............:brick:

100 % agree here......

[Shaun P]

Bla bla bla
With the benefit of considerable knowledge learnt from Ohlins, Race Tech and Traxxion Dynamics we are able to apply mods into oem shocks / forks at reasonable cost. Having a suspension dyno assists in determination of ideal base damping curves.

Level 1 Service, revalve, respring oem suspension

Level 2 Fit internal upspec components ( eg Race Tech ) into oem suspension

Level 3 Fit high quality aftermarket shock units / cartridges

That is the philosophy we have developed and I believe most volume suspension tuners would also operate on. Suspension solutions for all budgets.

I am happy to field more questions but let me catch my breath first!

Yep like this http://www.ptr.com.au/suspension_packages.htm

[Robert Taylor]

Yep like this http://www.ptr.com.au/suspension_packages.htm

Thanks for that, had never looked at Phils site.

[enigma51]

Fucking hell i was away for two days and what do i come back to

3 threads about the mnz or part there off


You fuckers are the best

Stop fucking moaning about who said what my penis is way bigger than all of yours together and boomer can out ride all you fuckers on here

[cowpoos]

Fucking hell i was away for two days and what do i come back to

3 threads about the mnz or part there off


You fuckers are the best

Stop fucking moaning about who said what my penis is way bigger than all of yours together and boomer can out ride all you fuckers on here
thanks logan...that was really helpful! :)

[enigma51]

thanks logan...that was really helpful! :)

I try my best :whistle:

[GSVR]

Yes I can relate to your first paragraph. I can recall there are certain racing formula overseas that within certain classes you have to be new to it and are only able to compete within that class for a set period before moving on. That obviously works well overseas but as always in NZ we always have the issue of a small population. I think its also relevant to say that if there are too many classes then it just dilutes other fields, several people have eluded to that.

Standard suspension you will get away with with the lower powered bikes ( e.g if there was still a 250cc production class.) But when you get the higher powered bikes 600cc and upwards the tyre degradation and chassis pitch control issues magnify somewhat. My reasons are as you know within the copy of a submission to MNZ that I posted on this site.
SV650s are another case in point, the link ratio is ''commuter comfort friendly'' and even when we supply a more standard ( non TTX ) type Ohlins shock for these we have to make some dramatic changes to give the ride height control required and save the tyres. Candidly, this took quite a while to work out. But the benefits and speed over oem are obvious.

I have no problem with a second tier 600 class. Perhaps a better term to use would have been ''a line in the sand'' rather than ''a bridge too far''. Again my reasons for allowing revalving of the oem shocks has been amply stated in that same submission and I note that you yourself saw at least some sense in it. Note my elaboration about this further on in this post.

I resolutely stand by my tyre wear arguments with respect to the higher powered bikes, especially. Respectfully, we see an enormous amount of suspension units per annum that we revalve to give both better control and to solve repeat rapid tyre wear / stress problems. More and more are coming from everyday track day riders .

That SV class a few years back was in its infancy, as it developed more and more with people becoming more competitive I believe we would have seen more crashing. At minimum I believe they should have allowed emulators and springs in the front end, if only to save ongoing crash repair bills as the front ends would have felt more secure. I guess you can counter that by saying theyd then crash at higher speeds! But heck, we fit emulators to a lot of SVs that only get used on the road, beacuse the riders are dissatisfied with their lack of secure feel.

The shock revalve offer was totally sincere and genuine with no agenda other than for yourself to experience what is possible with a standard GSXR shock and no limitation on you reporting it exactly as it was, good or bad. As an aside its not so easy to upgrade the standard SV650 single tube stock shock as it doesnt have a reservoir and a base compression valve to assist in maintaining suitable internal pressure balance. Possible but a bit of a can of worms.

Actually I genuinely dont recall those questions without laboriously dredging back through god only knows how many posts. Frankly, I get so many questions via many ways of delivering them that it often gets to brain overload on a daily basis. Perhaps as has been suggested by a racing friend I am too free with information. Questions are good as long as they are not ''loaded'' or as I brutally eluded to you are there to serve a twisted interpretation. Straight questions, straight answers. I had a number of PMs, one questioning how I have so much patience and another wondering why it took me so long to lose my rag. But hey Im not bitter and twisted about it and Im answering all your questions in good spirit.

I think many people are intimidated about doing the Nationals and I hear what you are saying. Arguably its a hell of a cost to travel from one end of the country to the other and factor in all the accomodation, meals etc etc. And maybe there are many competitors who would rather be on holiday during January. I know I would rather be doing just that! Myriad reasons and they cannot all be blamed on class rules. I also think Bears should be included in Nationals.

Apologies for being so busy!!

Thats a good question re 600 revalves. Most of the top riders do so and part of that is because we are there, because we are willing to do so and top riders are always seeking a further edge. I can recall Shaun harris and I doing a lot of suspension dyno work on his CBR600 a few years back, we both learnt a lot about damping curves required for road race and tyre performance preservation. This accumulation of knowledge and new ideas never stops.That is the nature of the beast and I am proud of having played in part in lifting the game, consistent with what has happened in other worldwide markets. With the exception that it has been 'New Zealandised i.e much more of the backup is done out of sheer goodwill. Also proud of that but we also have to at least cover costs! Arguably then many of the distributor teams ( who we have contracts with ) effectively subsidise the ''privateer ''riders as we always find at least some time to help people who request same. It is never ever regarded as a cash cow on the day, if we sell something then thats great! Nothing wrong in that.
Teretonga is a track that requires reasonably aggressive valving and heavier springing to keep the rear end up in its stroke and away from the ''accelerative part'' of the link ratio during the considerable time the bikes spend at high speed banked over in the sweeper. This sweeper goes on for longer than the Parabolica at Monza. The surface is similiar to Taupo and similarly cold so compound choices and tyre pressures are also critical. Up the road Timaru throws up its own challenges with a more amenable surface with many flat turns and the bikes are always on their sides. Softer springing with more preload and often less aggressive valving. Ruapuna is different again and there is a lot of emphasis on getting the front end right as theres heavy braking going on. Manfield is similiar in many ways to Ruapuna but when we get to Pukekohe throw all the settings out of the window. Nasty bumps and elevation change over the hill, general reduction in spring rate and valving and lots of emphasis on getting rebound control within the right window.
Factor in also that we are always playing with geometry, fork position in clamps and rear ride height length. Frankly, the aftermarket rear shocks allow such changes infinitely more quickly than oem. Invariably we always have new stuff to test from the factory and this year we tested new front end stuff in Sam Smiths bike at Pukekohe. That was the reason for his top form there and not the deliberate red herring of our ''electronic'' rear shock. The reactions were interesting.
The TTX stuff we now predominantly work with makes life easy in that we can do a trackside revalve very quickly as they are designed to be that way, spring changes are also dead easy. As it is also with the FGK cartridges.
Candidly we are rather less excited about revalving oem shocks trackside as they are not exactly designed to be serviced so quickly and unlike TTX we do not have a large inventory of springs for such shocks, which are also rather less uniform. Even with just the spring issue I think those who have proposed the rule change have not considered the further logistics required.
People with our product and backup have had service a lot more cheaply than would be the case in first world European / North American countries. For one they would be expected to carry their own spring alternative rates for varying tracks. How many competitors in this country have stiffer springs for ''one off'' tracks such as Teretonga and softer ''wet'' springs etc? How many have the specific tools to effect the changes? And that also includes oem....

As I have stated I am personally not averse to cost controlled classes as long as the line in the sand is not placed in a poorly determined position, devoid of due diligence in listening to experienced experts who have worked at the coalface confronting the issues

. It will be possible to have a decent valving spec for oem that allied with spring changes will cover most eventualities. But I for one am certainly not going to carry a huge spring inventory as I do with Ohlins to exchange trackside, competitors will have to purchase and carry their own, that is fair and reasonable.

With the benefit of considerable knowledge learnt from Ohlins, Race Tech and Traxxion Dynamics we are able to apply mods into oem shocks / forks at reasonable cost. Having a suspension dyno assists in determination of ideal base damping curves.

Level 1 Service, revalve, respring oem suspension

Level 2 Fit internal upspec components ( eg Race Tech ) into oem suspension

Level 3 Fit high quality aftermarket shock units / cartridges

That is the philosophy we have developed and I believe most volume suspension tuners would also operate on. Suspension solutions for all budgets.

I am happy to field more questions but let me catch my breath first!

Thanks. Plenty there to read and think about for all that are considering or already racing.
Regards Garry

If the new proposed rules come in (re Privateers) and OEM shocks are allowed extensive modifications as long as they look standard externally don't you think serious racers will just buy up several shocks and set them up for different tracks and conditions and then just swap the entire shock out at the track? Its possible to buy many second hand OEM shocks for the price of a decent aftermarket one.

[BigGuy]

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

Come on mate.... now there's no need for that. :mad:

As a personal benefactor of Robert's help, I can fairly much state that most people would take exception with that comment.

Robert helped me out with out with my suspension and he didn't know me from a bar of soap!

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks. Plenty there to read and think about for all that are considering or already racing.
Regards Garry

If the new proposed rules come in (re Privateers) and OEM shocks are allowed extensive modifications as long as they look standard externally don't you think serious racers will just buy up several shocks and set them up for different tracks and conditions and then just swap the entire shock out at the track? Its possible to buy many second hand OEM shocks for the price of a decent aftermarket one.

I guess thats a possibility but also the reality is that if a track specific spec was developed for each track then some poor sod ( like me ) would have to do it over a couple of seasons. You cannot also go straight from the dyno setting and know it will 100% work on a specific track, you test variations on the theme. Frankly there are so many variables like tyres, the biological component ( the rider) etc that I dont really see that this would be an issue. Aside from that bikes and their components keep changing.
There is never a perfect setting, one reason we ourselves are always trying stuff. We turned up at Ruapuna nationals with some fork extender components for Stroudy, completely untested. Stroudy being Stroudy he didnt fit these until right before official qualifying, much to my bemusement as they were totally untested / unproven. Then he goes and sticks it on pole, nearly broaching the 1 minute 30 barrier! Thats a fairytale story, but usually theres a lot more laborious work and combinations to test, you can try 5 things and 2 may work.
And like I intimated personally Im not quite as enthused about pulling oem shocks apart at meetings, they are just not as user friendly and quick to work with. Another relevant issue ( seems a small one but it is important ) is that oem springs are not marked for rate. Kiwis being kiwis many will find cheap used springs somewhere without positively knowing their rate. We have never had to bring our spring rate tester to meetings as all of our Ohlins springs are etched for rates. Such equipment doesnt travel so well. Its a whole new can of worms.
And its with a bit of humour to note that there are so many secondhand oem shocks around because they have been replaced with aftermarket! Funny world.

[cowpoos]

Thanks. Plenty there to read and think about for all that are considering or already racing.
Regards Garry

If the new proposed rules come in (re Privateers) and OEM shocks are allowed extensive modifications as long as they look standard externally don't you think serious racers will just buy up several shocks and set them up for different tracks and conditions and then just swap the entire shock out at the track? Its possible to buy many second hand OEM shocks for the price of a decent aftermarket one.
a OEM shock retails for more than a Ohlins shock.

[Robert Taylor]

a OEM shock retails for more than a Ohlins shock.

In fairness that is not always so, but given a choice if I was spending a similiar amount of money its a no brainer. Plus the Swedish shock will be delivered with the most appropriate springing and set up for you. GSVR did raise a relevant point in that there are doubtless a lot of disused oem shocks around. Of course they are only relevant if they fit the models being raced.

[That Guy]

Interesting thread...it seems to me at least everyone's heart is in the right place - we all want motorcycle racing to thrive in NZ.

Just an observation regarding declining road racing entrants:
Comparatively, MX in NZ I think is doing really well (sure it could be better too) - we produce riders of an excellent international standard (Cooper, Townley etc etc). Look at how many riders turn up to race at the Woodville GP for instance. It has been a long time (too long!) since the days of Slight and Crafar.

Why not look at what makes MX so much better and start there...

[avgas]

And even more money.

What about a proper streetstock class - 600cc upwards, no modifications.
That way anyone with a couple of k could enter - and if they enjoy it they could get a new bike (making the top of the class bikes still less than 30K).

I mean seriously - do we want Nascar styles here in MNZ? R1 frame with a K8 motor and wheels of some ducati? I'm not saying scrap that class. Just i would rather say
"Wow this will be a good race, its an old R1 vs a new GSXR....."

You will also find sponsors easy as all the companies would happily sponsor a race where the spectators could buy the EXACT SAME BIKE instore.

This would also test the racers more than the bike.
To be honest i don't see why some racers compete in the season when they are going to get their arse handed to them by someone on a $100K+ bike. Those people are the true racers in the sport - they only race for the love of it.

[Robert Taylor]

Interesting thread...it seems to me at least everyone's heart is in the right place - we all want motorcycle racing to thrive in NZ.

Just an observation regarding declining road racing entrants:
Comparatively, MX in NZ I think is doing really well (sure it could be better too) - we produce riders of an excellent international standard (Cooper, Townley etc etc). Look at how many riders turn up to race at the Woodville GP for instance. It has been a long time (too long!) since the days of Slight and Crafar.

Why not look at what makes MX so much better and start there...

Its not neccessarily that overall numbers are small ( which they arent ) Its that there are so many series and not enough people enter for the Nationals, but are content to enter winter series racing. Its not also neccessarily about machine specifications and costs ( although there is quite a bit of room to move within sensible boundaries ) Taking a walk through the pits of a VMCC or Bears round proves that there is still quite a bit of money around.

FYI the top runners at the MX Nationals will have two bikes and these are extensively kitted out with motor and suspension mods. The investment here is also considerable.

I think it has more to do with timing, number of rounds, time away ( maybe drop a South Island round ), promotion and encouragement.

[tas152]

... the Nationals ...( maybe drop a South Island round )

WTF :gob: :no::crybaby::brick:

[That Guy]

Its not neccessarily that overall numbers are small ( which they arent ) Its that there are so many series and not enough people enter for the Nationals, but are content to enter winter series racing. Its not also neccessarily about machine specifications and costs ( although there is quite a bit of room to move within sensible boundaries ) Taking a walk through the pits of a VMCC or Bears round proves that there is still quite a bit of money around.

FYI the top runners at the MX Nationals will have two bikes and these are extensively kitted out with motor and suspension mods. The investment here is also considerable.

I think it has more to do with timing, number of rounds, time away ( maybe drop a South Island round ), promotion and encouragement.

Yep I wasn't saying $ wasn't being spent at MX (although having raced both disciplines my experience was MX requires much less $ than road...expecially when it comes to crashing and tyres). I am saying it seems MX is healthier than road, at least that's my perception anyway, and to qaulify that I'd suggest attendance at races like Woodville, and riders like Cooper and Townley are the proof.

Therefore, what's different? Probably timing, number of rounds, time away etc are factors.....but I think its more than that too.

Here's my view at least any way: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=235775#post235775

[Robert Taylor]

Yep I wasn't saying $ wasn't being spent at MX (although having raced both disciplines my experience was MX requires much less $ than road...expecially when it comes to crashing and tyres). I am saying it seems MX is healthier than road, at least that's my perception anyway, and to qaulify that I'd suggest attendance at races like Woodville, and riders like Cooper and Townley are the proof.

Therefore, what's different? Probably timing, number of rounds, time away etc are factors.....but I think its more than that too.

Here's my view at least any way: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=235775#post235775

Actually attendance at MX always has been bigger, at least in NZ. MX is perceived as being easier but that is not reason enough in itself to dumb down the upper echelon classes in road racing.

[smoky]

I have observed recent writings on this site and it is with some regret that I feel compelled to write here. This probably would have been better served as a personal message, but as Robert Taylor has chosen a public forum to write his opinions in, I feel that I must likewise reply in such a forum. Firstly let’s put all our cards on the table. I am the older brother of the current CEO of MNZ so I do not claim impartiality. But it seems that such a virtue is in short supply around here anyway, so let us continue in spite of it…… My brother will probably be annoyed that I have taken this course of action but unlike others who have both declared, and undeclared interests in the recent discussions, I have at least had the courtesy to disclose my identity. I am thus moved to address Robert as he has the courtesy to identify himself. The anonymous phantoms in the mist deserve no such respect.

I am saddened by the fact that I have come to lose respect for someone that I have admired as a very capable expert in the disciplines of motorcycle engineering, particularly suspension. Credit where it is due though, Robert has not chosen to hide behind the anonymity that the internet can provide. He has stuck his head up and voiced opinions that have become increasingly personal in nature and he has taken to playing the man and not the ball. He has apparently embarked on a campaign of personal vendetta and in doing so has lowered his standing in the eyes of many people. The CEO is facing a crisis in participation in a sport that he has been associated with and loved for many years. The quality of entries at the sharp end is not the issue, the quantity is. Competitor numbers in National Champs have fallen from the 2006 level of 35 entrants in the 600’s down to 26 entries in 2009 . The big capacity class has fallen from 23 to 15 entries in the same period. Back in 2005 there were 30 entries in the big capacity class. The CEO has seen fit to initiate responses to this perceived crisis. If he stood idly by and let the numbers in Road Racing’s premiere classes decline even further, the same hounds that bark and whine that he is trying to do something now would be howling for his blood, crying that he stood by and let it die…..
Paul’s job is to help grow motorcycling in New Zealand. MNZ is an organising body, not a branch of the trade. He has been told repeatedly by competitors that costs are too high, and in an effort to reduce these he has made proposals to reduce the cost of running a competitive machine. Robert Taylor has attempted to hijack the discussions about change and convert them into an argument about motorcycle suspension and chassis dynamics, an area I am sure that he is comfortable in discussing, but in doing so the debate is distracted from where it really needs to be. Robert has become an outspoken critic of the CEO. A small chorus of the disaffected have generalised it into derision of all MNZ staff. Among this group are people who have probably been disciplined for assaulting stewards and making potentially criminally libellous statements about MNZ staff. Robert claims that the CEO is acting in a dictatorial and single minded way, whilst he himself has proceeded to behave in precisely such a manner, closing his mind to all possibility of change to class rules that alter the current market for suspension products and expertise. He and others have expanded this reaction into a critique of all aspects of MNZ’s operations , even down to pathetic dribblings about car park spaces…. I doubt that their $120.00 would buy much in any specialist race suspension shop, yet for the small sum of their annual subscription ( only a part of MNZ funding ), these anonymous critics expect that they should control every last detail of the administration of a complex organisation. Perhaps Robert might be able to inform them about the subtleties of the provincial real estate market, but I imagine that the car park might have actually risen in value since it was purchased thus becoming an appreciating asset. Do not mistake outspokenness for correctness.

Roberts shock and alarm at the voluntary departure of Paul Stewart seems to have played a part in generating much of his animosity. It is sad to see attempts to turn Paul Stewart’s departure into some sort of Jihadi martyrdom as these detract from his achievements.

If you want to play the man Robert, consider the following. In developing a personal attack on PP you need to realise that you are attacking a man who spent every moment of his life between 1974 and 1998 breathing racing motorcycles. He spent every cent of disposable income for 24 years on his passion for racing motorcycles, risking his life and limbs , and sustaining serious injuries for the beautiful madness that is Road Racing. If I am not mistaken, you have always been a bench racer , risking at most, a pinched thumb from an errant shock spring….. Conversely your involvement in motorcycle racing over a similar period of time has mostly derived you income in some way or another, So don’t talk lightly about the love of motorcycle racing around here mate. Whilst enjoying a good income at present, Paul left behind corporate sector jobs that paid multiples of what he is probably on now, so he’s not in it for the money.

So now Robert hopes that a new President of MNZ might enable him to take the fight to the CEO...this will of course, immediately solve the entire issue !!( enter appropriate Tui beer advert slogan here )

Change needs to come to Road Racing in NZ. In my opinion, alignment with Australian Superstock rules would enable an affordable and competitive race series that would enable a two way traffic of riders and machines . If you think that would make boring racing just ask any of the riders and spectators who have seen it in Australia.

So before you dismiss me as a sycophantic sibling Robert, remember its not too late to change yourself and possibly your point of view. There might even be a place for you, God knows you are intelligent enough to adapt…….
As for your various political ramblings, I think somebody should contact Labour Party headquarters and let them know that they are losing the support of small provincial entrepreneurial capitalists. I’m sure they would be “shocked” to find that they are losing the battle for what must surely have been their traditional support base……

Couldn't be bothered reading all that! Should've thrown in a joke or two

[Scouse]

Couldn't be bothered reading all that! Should've thrown in a joke or twoYep and your the Joke

[Brian d marge]

FYI the top runners at the MX Nationals will have two bikes and these are extensively kitted out with motor and suspension mods. The investment here is also considerable.
.

lest say for argument both bikes and mods come to 25000 dollars ONE super bike 12 15?? plus suspension ,,,MX still works out better value

PLUS, a well set up stock bike in capable hands is still a very good weapon of choice, in fact it with development from people such as yourself would be still a good bike for one or two years more

Gone are the days of throwing money at things,,I reckon

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

lest say for argument both bikes and mods come to 25000 dollars ONE super bike 12 15?? plus suspension ,,,MX still works out better value

PLUS, a well set up stock bike in capable hands is still a very good weapon of choice, in fact it with development from people such as yourself would be still a good bike for one or two years more

Gone are the days of throwing money at things,,I reckon

Stephen

Time costs as well! Then theres the not too irrelevant issue that Superbikes have 3 more cylinders etc than puddle jumpers.

[That Guy]

Time costs as well! Then theres the not too irrelevant issue that Superbikes have 3 more cylinders etc than puddle jumpers.

There's the answer! Bring back the supermono class!

[Robert Taylor]

There's the answer! Bring back the supermono class!

How about F450 as run in the States? Check it out on www.racetech.com Also a great class to get puddle jumpers to cross over....

[That Guy]

If that was a well organised class in NZ, and I could convert my MX bike (well not mine its a 4 speed) for $10k or less I'd be in. Tomorrow. That looks awesome!

I might just do it anyway...that looks really good - light bikes, cheap to crash (relatively) therefore, easy on tyres and when you look at what Jason Easton can do on his tigcraft....very fast....

[budda]

WTF :gob: :no::crybaby::brick:

HOPING he meant drop a South Island MX Round !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[svr]

How about F450 as run in the States? Check it out on www.racetech.com Also a great class to get puddle jumpers to cross over....

http://www.450gp.com/EN/index.html

[Grey Beard]

Thet are also doing this in the USA.

About US$1000 for a kit

see www.450moto.com

[cowpoos]

How about F450 as run in the States? Check it out on www.racetech.com Also a great class to get puddle jumpers to cross over....


http://www.450gp.com/EN/index.html


Thet are also doing this in the USA.

About US$1000 for a kit

see www.450moto.com

I'd be up for that...

[Ivan]

its a bike I thought about getting made before pro twins and even would still run in it probably if a class was started as you can suss out a good YZF450 or CRF450 quite cheap and thought about sportsbike forks but reading that racetech site it really is a good site and says modify the standered components

[cowpoos]

its a bike I thought about getting made before pro twins and even would still run in it probably if a class was started as you can suss out a good YZF450 or CRF450 quite cheap and thought about sportsbike forks but reading that racetech site it really is a good site and says modify the standered components
sounds like a 250cc version will be eliigable for 125gp next year

[svr]

You guys should put up a f450 thread.
I'm goin home to watch motogp!

[Ivan]

sounds like a 250cc version will be eliigable for 125gp next year

that would be pretty cool to see as most guys struggle I hear putting the 4 stroke engine into 125 chassis with vibrations Jason Easton's seemed to work fine tho.

But if you could use the standered frame and maybe run 125 running gear like forks and rims then I guess you could have a good bike

[FleshDevice]

Sounds to me like all involved in this and the other threads are all on the same page, ie want whats best for Motorcycle racing in New Zealand, but typically Ego's as well as private agendas get in the way of it so the inevitable shit fight emerges within the masses.

In my view such things should be lead from the top based on research into the problems, cant see it happening though.

You all Got Some Issues . Alignment Accoss the Ditch Would Help making the Progession of this sport alot more exciting.

[cowpoos]

You all Got Some Issues . Alignment Accoss the Ditch Would Help making the Progession of this sport alot more exciting.
it would....but align our classes with which ones of theirs??

[tl1000]

Mark
Get your facts right, actually holding up a pit board and suggesting the TV coverage be put on youtube, i THINK YOUR BROTHER HAS BEEN TEELING YOU PORKIES AGAIN,
nothing TO DO WITH AN ASSAULT, AND IF YOU CAN BELIVE THE PRESIDENT THEY COULDNT "ATTACK Jim Tuckerman as not a member, pretty sure NC wasnt a member either,
Suzuki Muma has her finger on the pulse and shows more common cents than all the MNZ board and CEO boiled up together.

[smoky]

Yep and your the Joke

Man you really didn't like my humor did you!
thanks for the red rep!

Nice use of the english language;
"What is that about not maling it personal you can talk you hypocritical arsewipe look what you said in this post looks pretty personal to me you cock sucker" (Scouse)

You've obviously got some anger issues to work thru, poor boy - you're the kind of person that puts people off having anything to do with organisations like MNZ, there's always someone who gets bent out of shape over the smallest insignificant issue - then gets verbally abusive and personal.
I use to support clubs, been a member in the past, even joining in fund raising and helping to organise events.
But attitudes like yours - burn it for people like me

I respect people like Frosty and Robert T, I may not agree with them, but at lest they act with a passion for the sport.
As Quassi has pointed out (in the best post so far)
" typically Ego's as well as private agendas get in the way "

[smoky]

..... thick fat fuck like yourself,
.....Got that now mr Downs syndrome?

Cool ... more abuse from you in my in-box, and another red rep. You guys all seem a bit uptight about all this

[White trash]

Cool ... more abuse from you in my in-box, and another red rep. You guys all seem a bit uptight about all this
It's KB mate, you're not allowed an oppinon of your own without someone getting pissed off and resorting to name calling.

Get used to it.

[smoky]

It's KB mate, you're not allowed an oppinon of your own without someone getting pissed off and resorting to name calling.

Get used to it.

been around long enough to realise that; but I'm highlighting it to make a point; A point I think people interested in the topic of this thread should take note of

When people stop discussing things from a 'what's best for the sport' atitude, and take a personal line of trying to intimidate, abuse, and disrespect others - then nothing being discussed in this thread will ever be any better.

Surely we all have more in common to build on, and solve problems, rather than being immature and resorting to abusing each other?

[simonnn]

I think both Mark and Robert are fine fellows.
I am sure they would both bat for the same team if it wasnt for the fact that Marks gene pool was close to the Isles of Lesbos and Robert suffers from a Lithium defeciancy.

Paint the Pig Pink I say.

[scracha]

I think both Mark and Robert are fine fellows.
I am sure they would both bat for the same team if it wasnt for the fact that Marks gene pool was close to the Isles of Lesbos and Robert suffers from a Lithium defeciancy.

Paint the Pig Pink I say.

Was that really necessary?

[idleidolidyll]

Mark, this reply is from Mike Breen. I've known you guys for a long time now.
The first thing I have to offer is that I too have criticised MNZ in the recent past and that was due to the crazy exclusion of motards from F3. Paul was not my target but he wasn't happy that I aired the issue here.
Unlike Mr Taylor, I have no financial stake in motorcycle racing in NZ and therefore believe my comments were impartial. I believe an open forum like this is actually far better than the secret squirrel crap from the past and as all of us are aware; many of the old regimes decisions seemed pretty arbitrary and taken to support their sponsors, specific importers, rather than riders.
I was elected rider rep at Wanganui one year and stood up to the race nazis for which I was mongrelled and was threatened with expulsion on the day.
That said, I understand that MNZ is an elected body. However, like some governments, it seems to believe that once elected, it can do whatever the committee members wish with little real buy in from the majority or riders.

If MNZ is primarily there to support importers and dealers then perhaps we need a seperate riders association. If they are there to support riders, we need transparency.

In my opinion, Mr Taylor is looking after his business first.

I know that Paul advised a friend of mine that he would be allowed to race an "R" spec Ducati in the premiere class but was later told that no R spec bikes woulkd be allowed. I believe the committee made that decision not Paul.The 'logic' was that R bikes are too expensive and too exclusive. I believe that is ridiculous when a Yamaha or Suzuki will have $30,000+ spent on mods after purchase to be a winner and that people like Mr Taylor are the main beneficiaries of that policy. Effectively, Japanese proddy bikes are being turned into R spec bikes and the end cost is much the same.

As above, I believe Pauls' heart is in the right place but he is subject to overuling by the committee. Again, transparency may be an answer and the entire committee and management of MNZ should be open to scrutiny at all times. For major decisions, I believe licence holders should have individual votes (referenda) and those who are thinking of racing should be allowed some measure of voice.

Yes, racing suspension is obviously a major contributor to Mr Taylors income and he would benefit greatly from turning more and more std Japanese bikes into R spec suspended machines. Bring back production as non modified and allow an open class as in the poast where Brittens, Moriwakis, Yoshimuras, McIntoch's and R Ducatis etc plus highly modified road bikes can compete as in the heady days of the 70's and 80's.

As per my first example, Paul seems to have been overridden by the committee and this makes claims that Paul can act dictatorially dubious in the least and ridiculous in fact.

I concur totally: regardless of what decisions Paul is able or unable to make under the auspices of the democratic process within MNZ; his heart is in exactly the right place and he will always do whatever he thinks is best for motorcycle racing in NZ. Paul, apart from a salary smaller no doubt than his previous management job, does not profit from any specific decision made by MNZ the way Mr Taylor does.This is the crux of the issue: Is MNZ there to support racing or is it an organisation tasked with increasing the profit margins of importers, retails and tuners?
Back in the days before sponsorship really came to NZ; the sport was much bigger than today with respect to entry numbers and crowd support. If a shift toward industry support over the wishes and desires of the riders themselves has reduced entries and crowds, then it is ultimately self defeating regardless of the short term gain for some businesses.

Boring racing in NZ is watching the same well funded teams win again and again while excellent riders on less expensive machinery say "bugger it". Boring racing are classes with 5 or 6 entries riding around Puke: Yawn

Mr Taylor has called me a socialist and attacked me many times on that basis. Using political terminology, if I am a socialist, Mr Taylor is a fascist and I wonder if he is as proud of that epithet as I am of "socialist"?

The last time I made such a comment, a complaint was made even though it (the orignal comment) was made on the basis of the political views offered and dictionary definitions of the views offered. I expect it will be the same (this time).

Mark, I have great respect for both you and Paul and know you have both given much to the sport. I support both of you and believe you do the best for riders and the sport regardless of the effect on income to businesses.

Just as I write this, a mutual friend tells me that 70,000 UK quid was spent on a bike to get 2 miles per hour more in average speed around the Isle of Mann (GSXR1000). This is crazy and we don't need it in NZ.

[Robert Taylor]

That tired old chestnut, vested interests! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MAKING MONEY ( albeit small amounts ) ???????????? The reality is that if the classes were closer to production we'd end up making more money. But thered also be a lot more grief, FACT.
I did a quick survey of Superbike / 600 cc class bikes at VMCC round 2, about 34 bikes total. About 90% had aftermarket suspension fitted. There doesnt seem to be so much of a problem with machine specification affordability OR the numbers. Its just getting guys to do the Nationals when there is so much travel and accomodation costs involved, plus downtime. Those are the realities, not so much machine specification, although there is room for movement.
If there was a production based formula the same distributor teams would be winning, with bigger margins. The current rules are in fact a leveller, but Im not going to repeat why at length, again. And as you mentioned politics its akin to socialism, its not a leveller at all.
So often rule changes are made by people who are technically illiterate, and pig-headed to boot.

[Robert Taylor]

Oh and by the way at VMCC round 2 I helped a lot pf people set up their bikes at NO CHARGE. My righthand man Dennis came along to help and gets a day in lieu for it, fuel, accomodation and meal costs are incurred. That comes out of our bottomline of sales margins. Hardly a signature of cold hard capitalism is it???? I am indeed conservative politically, but with compassion. Proud of that and proud to speak up even if its unpalatable to some.

[Cleve]

Oh and by the way at VMCC round 2 I helped a lot pf people set up their bikes at NO CHARGE. My righthand man Dennis came along to help and gets a day in lieu for it, fuel, accomodation and meal costs are incurred. That comes out of our bottomline of sales margins. Hardly a signature of cold hard capitalism is it???? I am indeed conservative politically, but with compassion. Proud of that and proud to speak up even if its unpalatable to some.

Actually Robert I think such an idoitic post doesn't require any comment or defence from you.

[Paul in NZ]

I think Max Mosely will be free soon, he could sort this shit out no worries... Well maybe not but he would sure organise some wicked after event parties...

[GSVR]

I think Max Mosely will be free soon, he could sort this shit out no worries... Well maybe not but he would sure organise some wicked after event parties...

I had short lived hopes that Slowpoke had won the 35 million and was going to donate some of it to motorcycle racing but then found out it was a goup of ladies.

[Shaun]

Actually Robert I think such an idoitic post doesn't require any comment or defence from you.


100% agreed Cleve. Get back in the lab DR, and print some more money, appaerently, it is NOT fair to work very hard, and get a coffee or 2 for it

PS, thanks for the comments re working with you and Dennis/Ohlin's Race tech, it is actually my plessure to work through you again, you know that I know how much testing and development work goes on in your lab and head

[idleidolidyll]

yawn,

fallacy arguments are so easy eh; much easier than intelligent debate.

Of course its OK to make a profit. The point is that it is also important to know whether people have a financial stake in decisions as human nature (amongst the right wing in particular) indicates that those profits will often be the primary motivator at some cost to the group, activity or organisation.

another socialist versus fascist debate

In every article people read, every 'scientific paper etc, they should ALWAYS try to learn who paid for the work to be done and whether they profit from it.
Not to do so will always leave you open to exploitation and manipulation.

Phamaceutical companies, alcohol companies, tobacco companies, oil companies: all have provided us with examples where their motivation to make money overrode their desire to see the best done for their customers and the public: it isn't any different on a smaller scale.

the argument isn't that anyone has definitely or deliberately influenced decisions in favour of profit over sport and riders, the argument is that if you don't understand the motivations of all those who push for change; you'll eventually get shafted

so if you want to bleat, try to make it intelligent rational debate instead of fallacy; i can spot that shit from 100 paces

[Shaun]

MODS

Can you please move the above dribble to the RANT and RAVE section where it belongs, in fact, how about deleating the whole thread, it is just an attack thread really, and belongs in another forum

Time to move on again

[idleidolidyll]

mods, can you check out Shauns rubbish posts in this thread and move the lot to the sin bin. They are almost all junk mail.

Shaun, if Mr Taylor wants to attack people, he must understand that he will receive the same back.
The points made are entirely valid in light of his reply to my post and as a guide for those wanting transparency inside MNZ

[idleidolidyll]

Shaun,

Don't you also profit from your involvement in racing?
That's OK, you are welcome to. However people should be aware that you do.

Are you part of the organisation? I know you were running for a position.
If so, those whom you represent deserve to have all the facts including whether certain decisions would result in extra profit and whether those same decisions are balanced toward the sport or toward the businesses profiting from the sport.
Nothing wrong with decisions that BOTH make profits AND progress the sport but the sport should always come first.

As I noted in the first post; Paul was a senior manager in business before taking up his role at MNZ. I very much doubt he earns more money at MNZ. That given, it seems we can exclude the personal profit motive from Pauls decisions. If you know otherwise, please elucidate.

Don't you think the members who elect representatives deserve to know the facts behind their representatives and perhaps the motivations for making or pushing certain decisions?

[idleidolidyll]

Since you have chosen to speak for " Our PAID Staff member" Your Brother,( Which I truly respect)
as our CEO, how much sponsorship dollars did he manage to attrack into the sport in the last 12 months?

When I say HE. I mean him directly, NOT what Paul Stewart etc obtained.



Shaun, I belive that's a very narrow focus from a huge set of available paths. Sponsorship is only ONE way to grow the sport. If you focus only on the money you lose sight of the riders.

The sport was BIGGER in NZ BEFORE the money came. If a shift in direction AWAY from narrow minded focus on money actually ends up bringing back the riders and the crowds; that's exactly what the sport needed.

Paul, and indeed any member of MNZ, should not be judged based on the dollars they collected, only on the good they did for the sport.

[scracha]

MODS
Can you please move the above dribble to the RANT and RAVE section where

C'mon Shaun, aside from some real gem's, a lot of your posts are pure $hite <_< and don't get moved to r&r. Between rants Idle makes some valid points.


MODS
it belongs, in fact, how about deleating the whole thread, it is just an attack thread really, and belongs in another forum

Nah, this thread is giving great entertainment...oops...promoting serious debate.

Dr Bob, everyone who was at Manfield last weekend saw how hard Dennis and you were working. Also noted that you guys were pretty much everywhere, not just spending all your time with the 'big boys'.

[Shaun]

Shaun, I belive that's a very narrow focus from a huge set of available paths. Sponsorship is only ONE way to grow the sport. If you focus only on the money you lose sight of the riders.

The sport was BIGGER in NZ BEFORE the money came. If a shift in direction AWAY from narrow minded focus on money actually ends up bringing back the riders and the crowds; that's exactly what the sport needed.

Paul, and indeed any member of MNZ, should not be judged based on the dollars they collected, only on the good they did for the sport.



Narrow focus? NO mate, FACT!

The sport is actaully dying ( NZ Champs status) at the moment in case you had not noticed, so job well done by who ever our paid staff members are, as well as, was there any money found to promote the sport by our Paid staff members?

Narrow minded focus on money, who has that? Some people who are buisness people, do push there barrows with there product, but there product if fantastic, as is there support of the product, and there passion to make it better, as a rep of said product, I too have NO problem with making a living from a part of it, that is how the world works mate, and I know you know that.

This thread has turned into a personell bitching match, and should be deleated

[Shaun]

C'mon Shaun, aside from some real gem's, a lot of your posts are pure $hite <_< and don't get moved to r&r. Between rants Idle makes some valid points.


Nah, this thread is giving great entertainment...oops...promoting serious debate.

Dr Bob, everyone who was at Manfield last weekend saw how hard Dennis and you were working. Also noted that you guys were pretty much everywhere, not just spending all your time with the 'big boys'.




Fair enough dude, I do have an exscuse though, I AM A MORON:third:

[merv]

Idle I might read your posts more if you didn't use that hard to see colour.

[idleidolidyll]

Shaun, the post i referred to WAS all about money; your post

again; if the sport was bigger in the 70's and 80's BEFORE the money came, should we perhaps look backward to fix todays problems?

I remember you on that shitty 2nd hand 400 at Taupo. It wasn't competitive but it allowed you into the sport and you didn't finish last. If you'd had to spend up large to race bikes at the start, would you have achieved what you did? Would you even have been in the sport? We need those grass roots riders most of whom have bugger all money to spend.

i raced jappas for the first few years but the old regime soon pissed me off.
i switched to BEARs and was much happier. BEARs was formed as a reaction to the old organisation and to bring out all the old Nortons, Triumphs and bevel Ducatis etc that had been put in the garage because expensive jappas were taking over and the cheap used bikes had no classes where they could be even a little competitive. BEARs, particularly in Chch, became the biggest success story for years on that basis.

I was elected to the helm of the National Organisation for a while and during my time we had to face up to the money versus number of riders thing. We felt that the new 8 valve Ducatis racing in the proddy classes were going to kill the class and arranged a hiatus for a few years in which those bikes COULD race but only in the 'F1' class of BEARS. That decision wasn't taken by the committee, it was taken by a vote at each club and ratified by the committee (a kind of referenda). Some hated the idea but in the end it worked relatively well by BOTH allowing expensive bikes a class AND allowing those racing cheaper used bikes (the sports main support base) to also have a fair and reasonable class.

Those were the heady days when Paul Pav, Glen Williams, Bill Biber etc wowed the crowds in the premiere classes and crowds eclipsed those watching jappas race.

Is there a lesson to be learned for today? Yes, I reckon there is. They say you ignore the past at your peril, I say they are correct.

[NDORFN]

Do you guys ever find time between argueing to ride?

[idleidolidyll]

Idle I might read your posts more if you didn't use that hard to see colour.

I'm an orange kinda guy. The colours are there to be used so i do.
If you are really interested enough you'd click the dark side.

sorry buddy, i'm a crusty old fart and i like the orange (see bike details top right)

[idleidolidyll]

Do you guys ever find time between argueing to ride?

at least 500km a week, sometimes 700km; you?

[Drew]

Jesus people.

Thsi thread was started by someone taking shit personally, on behalf of his elected brother.

Anybody who takes an elected position, and doesn't have thick enough skin to take criticism, is a fuckin moron. That said, the family of said official need to take it on the chin, since one has to assume we didn't elect a fuckin moron.

I fail to see where all the offence has come form anyway. Robert Taylor is NOT the kind of guy, to give criticism not constructive.

When I first went racing, I didn't understand suspension and the gains from upgrading it, I did exceptionally well on a stock SV against a field of them with decent gear, the only guy in front of me was Glenn Williams on a well fucked with F3 bike. I started to question RT on everything he said, HEAPS of cock smokers around this place saw me to be attacking Robert and red repped me. Robert however answered my questions, never once took it personally, and generally showed me he was not just trying to drum up business.

Fuck it, why bother, most of the people on here wouldn't have the balls to man up and say half this shit face to face, implying the lack the courage of their convictions.

Idol, you are nothing more than an antagonist. An educated one perhaps, but a shit stirer all the same.

[idleidolidyll]

Narrow focus? NO mate, FACT!

The sport is actaully dying ( NZ Champs status) at the moment in case you had not noticed, so job well done by who ever our paid staff members are, as well as, was there any money found to promote the sport by our Paid staff members?

It's been dying for many years Shaun, it didn't start when Paul took the helm. The interesting thing is that the sport went into decline around the time sponsorship started to increase drastically and the cost of winning or placing highly rose dramatically.

Narrow minded focus on money, who has that? Some people who are buisness people, do push there barrows with there product, but there product if fantastic, as is there support of the product, and there passion to make it better, as a rep of said product, I too have NO problem with making a living from a part of it, that is how the world works mate, and I know you know that.

This thread has turned into a personell bitching match, and should be deleated

Again, I have no problem with profit making. Again, that profit making should be made clear if it might influence decisions (particularly if that person is a member of the committee or has another important role in MNZ, or has the ear of an MNZ executive).
It isn't necessarily about the profit made directly from the racers on the track either, it may just as well mean the profits made in the general riding public due to a reputation gained by sorting out bikes on the track.

I am in no doubt at all that both you and Mr Taylor make bikes better to ride and you are able to reduce lap times for most riders. However, I do question the extent to which the cost of developing bikes affects the numbers entering and watching races.

[idleidolidyll]

Jesus people.

Thsi thread was started by someone taking shit personally, on behalf of his elected brother.

Anybody who takes an elected position, and doesn't have thick enough skin to take criticism, is a fuckin moron. That said, the family of said official need to take it on the chin, since one has to assume we didn't elect a fuckin moron.

I disagree. Nobody should be expected to sit back and just suck up offensive attacks once they get personal and they did.

I fail to see where all the offence has come form anyway. Robert Taylor is NOT the kind of guy, to give criticism not constructive.

And neither is Paul. I fail to see the point. Personally though and on this website, I have received many posts from Mr Taylor that were definitely not constructive. One should always expect quid pro quo and not complain when it arrives.

When I first went racing, I didn't understand suspension and the gains from upgrading it, I did exceptionally well on a stock SV against a field of them with decent gear, the only guy in front of me was Glenn Williams on a well fucked with F3 bike. I started to question RT on everything he said, HEAPS of cock smokers around this place saw me to be attacking Robert and red repped me. Robert however answered my questions, never once took it personally, and generally showed me he was not just trying to drum up business.

Nobody has ever said Mr Taylor doesn't know his business. That's a bit of a red herring in the context of this debate.

Fuck it, why bother, most of the people on here wouldn't have the balls to man up and say half this shit face to face, implying the lack the courage of their convictions.

Idol, you are nothing more than an antagonist. An educated one perhaps, but a shit stirer all the same.

Please DO bother. It DOES matter. Thats what I mean about transparency.
You call me a shit stirrer, OK that';s your opinion. On the other hand I am an ex racer and perhaps will race again: I'm a stakeholder both as a rider and a spectator and my voice is as important as anyones.
I welcome your comments, they are all valid from your point of view and deserve airing, please allow the same from others

[Finn]

I guess this is the price we all pay for living on a small, insignificant Island in the south pacific where everything is a struggle because of a lack of professionalism and money. When I was involved in 4 wheeled motorsport, the governing body was full of beer bellied busy bodies and has beens who exercised their once in a lifetime opportunity to use their index finger. I got out of it because the fat useless bastards were holding the sport back. While I haven't read this thread in full or know too much about MNZ, I could confidently say the same applies here. Lets face it, we just don't do things well at all in NZ.

And so typical of small minded kiwi's, we attack people trying to money because we're bitter that it's not handed to us on a plate. However, last time I looked, Robert Taylor wasn't on the NBR rich list, rather he's a guy with a passion for motorcycle racing and provides by all accounts a bloody good service to racers at the Ohlins brand. We need to support people like Robert and get rid of people that hold back progress.

[Drew]

I am in no doubt at all that both you and Mr Taylor make bikes better to ride and you are able to reduce lap times for most riders. However, I do question the extent to which the cost of developing bikes affects the numbers entering and watching races.


Suspension upgrades save money in the long run ya friggin idiot!

With a standard GSXR1000, a rear tyre is fucked after ten laps of manfield long track, by anyone giving it a nudge. Do that three times in a day, and you've paid for half of a TTX36. Which set up right, would have seen the one tyre last the day.

Dont bother arguing it might be set up poorly, how much time will Robert spend in set up, revalving, and revalving again if ya get a shock?

And I quote, "as much time as it takes to get it right Drew".

[idleidolidyll]

Suspension upgrades save money in the long run ya friggin idiot!

With a standard GSXR1000, a rear tyre is fucked after ten laps of manfield long track, by anyone giving it a nudge. Do that three times in a day, and you've paid for half of a TTX36. Which set up right, would have seen the one tyre last the day.

Dont bother arguing it might be set up poorly, how much time will Robert spend in set up, revalving, and revalving again if ya get a shock?

And I quote, "as much time as it takes to get it right Drew".


Drew, please try to post without direct personal attacks, it isn't constructive and all it does is persuade me to reply in kind.

Perhaps some level of suspension setup reduces tyre wear dramatically but I wonder how much of that could also be achieved by setting up the stock suspension correctly?

It is very much a strange point that spending great wads of money on suspension saves money because my posts are not directed at the guys spending just a few bucks, more at those spending many thousands.

Has anyone here got some actual FACTS on the amount of dosh spent on the top bikes suspension? Opinion seems a waste of time.
Of course this thread isn't just about suspension, we could extend that and ask how much money is being spent on a standard Suzuki or Yamaha in order to lead the class? If it totals the amount you could buy an R spec bike for; why are they excluded?

If it is so much that it makes winning almost unachievable by those with bugger all money to spend and reduces class sizes and spectatator numbers; is it actually promoting the sport?

[idleidolidyll]

No Finn, you are making false assumptions and seem to be conveniently ignoring the arguments. I do not attack anyone because they make money, I myself do pretty well thanks.

My motivations are as stated and IMO posts like yours are only designed to shit stir.

On a wider note: Ignoring profit motivations only allows more Fay, Richwhite and Blue Chip results.

[scrivy]

If it is so much that it makes winning almost unachievable by those with bugger all money to spend and reduces class sizes and spectatator numbers; is it actually promoting the sport?


Try racing an old piece of shit sidecar worth $20,000 against a $120,000 LCR.
You guys go on about $50,000 bikes - try to beat a $120,000 machine!!!
I'm banging my head against a wall.....


Oh, and I won't change over to the long bikes.....
I prefer my short one........... :shutup::laugh: :crybaby:

[idleidolidyll]

Try racing an old piece of shit sidecar worth $20,000 against a $120,000 LCR.
You guys go on about $50,000 bikes - try to beat a $120,000 machine!!!
I'm banging my head against a wall.....


Oh, and I won't change over to the long bikes.....
I prefer my short one........... :shutup::laugh: :crybaby:

yep, that's the point IMO.

more power to you scrivy, you are fighting a money game and many others would have, and probably have already have, given up

[Drew]

Drew, please try to post without direct personal attacks, it isn't constructive and all it does is persuade me to reply in kind.OK


Perhaps some level of suspension setup reduces tyre wear dramatically but I wonder how much of that could also be achieved by setting up the stock suspension correctly? Mr Taylor has spent a few hours with just my bikes, running standard equipment. He does not really discriminate when it comes to simple clicker adjustments. I will strongly attest that nomatter how much he clicks a standard shock, it will not provide enough constant stability to drastically save the same amount of tyre wear.


It is very much a strange point that spending great wads of money on suspension saves money because my posts are not directed at the guys spending just a few bucks, more at those spending many thousands

Has anyone here got some actual FACTS on the amount of dosh spent on the top bikes suspension? Opinion seems a waste of time.
Of course this thread isn't just about suspension, we could extend that and ask how much money is being spent on a standard Suzuki or Yamaha in order to lead the class? If it totals the amount you could buy an R spec bike for; why are they excluded?Dunno the exact figures at the moment, RT can confirm that $7,000 would be damn near as good it gets front and back, perhaps not to the extent of TTX forks.

Now weigh that against the $80,000 build that is sitting in my garage.



If it is so much that it makes winning almost unachievable by those with bugger all money to spend and reduces class sizes and spectatator numbers; is it actually promoting the sport?Here's a wee tit bit for ya. Jimmy went racing on the K7, Ray Clee went about wanking it as much as he was allowed. The limit of tune came from where? Suzuki New Zealand, not the MNZ rule book.So what point is there in lowering the allowable tuning?

[Finn]

My motivations are as stated and IMO posts like yours are only designed to shit stir.

On a wider note: Ignoring profit motivations only allows more Fay, Richwhite and Blue Chip results.

From one shit stirrer to another then...

I stated your motivation as well. You're in the category of "has been" although perhaps "been" is a little exaggeration. Motorcycle racing has changed a bit since you ran down the beach on a puddle jumper.

Fay Richwhite was another story but you're right with Blue Chip. Dump kiwi's ignoring profit motivations and investing in Blue Chip. Same with MNZ I guess, people backing the wrong people.

[Drew]

Oh, and I won't change over to the long bikes.....
I prefer my short one........... :shutup::laugh: :crybaby:

And you ride it well indeed. A question though, do you think you'd be faster on an LCR? I know quite little about rigs, but I'm told the long chair doesn't respond as well to aggression. And having seen you pilot you're beast, the ONLY thing it responds to is aggression.

[idleidolidyll]

From one shit stirrer to another then...

I stated your motivation as well. You're in the category of "has been" although perhaps "been" is a little exaggeration.

Personal attacks Finn, i expect no less from you. Better a has been than a never was and never could be though.

Motorcycle racing has changed a bit since you ran down the beach on a puddle jumper.

Yawn, I raced MX for 10 years then road raced for about 8.
The main change has been a reduction of entries and crowd numbers.

Fay Richwhite was another story but you're right with Blue Chip. Dump kiwi's ignoring profit motivations and investing in Blue Chip. Same with MNZ I guess, people backing the wrong people.

No, Fay Richwhite et al is THE story. Unless you are fully aware of the money motivation, you are setting yourself up to be fucked over.

So do you have something On-topic or are you just going to continue the personal attacks?

[Finn]

No, Fay Richwhite et al is THE story. Unless you are fully aware of the money motivation, you are setting yourself up to be fucked over.

So do you have something On-topic or are you just going to continue the personal attacks?

Why are you trying to take the moral high ground? Is it because you've been booted off KB before cause people think you're a idiot or is it because you have a vested interest in protecting the failings of MNZ?

[Shaun]

idle, to Quote you

" It is very much a strange point that spending great wads of money on suspension saves money because my posts are not directed at the guys spending just a few bucks, more at those spending many thousands."


You are a racer from the OLD days, things have really changed mate, suspension is very important these days, why, Tyres in paticuallar, they are developed by scientists to work at there peak, so tyre warmers and trick healthy suspension IS NEEDED, simple, or just go aroung wearing out tyres and crashing and pay those bills, bugger that big time.

Front and rear trick Ohlin;s about $6000K, re sell for About $3000K cost you $3k for a season of work, and saved you at least a set of tyres per day at the track over a year, so tyres at around $600-00 a set, NEED I go on?

ABOUT PRODUCTION BIKES

I started the subject on here many months ago to see where the market is, I had done a deal with a Suzuki agent to purchase 15 bikes- PRODUCTION spec, I only got 4 confirmed orders to lease them- Wow, kind of shoots the prod class in the arse, and PROVES that riders them selfes do not want STD suspension bikes.

Re money this and money that- BOLLOCKS, if some one wants to race more than anything else, they will get a 2nd and 3rd job, and do what they have to do to make it happen.

Glenn Shachill springs to mind, hence the support he gets from me and Chris etc

Re the past good old days, dealers had better margins and more sales back then, so it was easier to obtain a bike through them, times have changed, and our office has not caught up yet

This is NOT an attack at PP, ( I respect him as a man)

one way to encourage more riders to the nationals, is to reduce the 3 days to 2 days, and drop the trip to Invercargill for a year or 2, untill finance becomes healthier.

Sorry Southland club, you all do a fantastic job, but the cost of the travell and accom to race down there does not justify it I think at the preasent point and time.


Ps, YES I do make money from suspension work, I am very comfartable with that, as I too also put a lot back into the sport free of charge, simillar to how Robert operates, any one is free to ask for advise help guidence at the track or on here or even call me on the phone, No problem what so ever, as I LOVE this sport

[Robert Taylor]

Suffice to say;

1) We appear to have a John Minto in the road race world, and thats not a compliment.
2 Interesting that this thread lay dormant for some time, it tends to confirm that its ressurection was due to in part personal antagonism and a desire to stir. Totally succeded.
3) Transparency issues and a tendency towards autocracy are the exact reasons there has been a cleanout within the upper echelons of MNZ. I raised such issues prior and if that is seen as MNZ bashing then I proudly plead guilty.
4) Decisions will be taken by people who have experience and in depth knowledge.
5) In total defence of Shaun. He has had a lot of help from many people inside and outside of the industry over the years. And paid that back with great results. Now he is putting ALL of his own money back into the sport helping up and coming riders. If he can derive some income as well from it the all the very best to him, I am aware that officially its not a crime.

The riders and tuners actively engaged with 600 AND 1000cc bikes best understand the suspension and tyre interaction issues, full stop.

[Robert Taylor]

Drew, please try to post without direct personal attacks, it isn't constructive and all it does is persuade me to reply in kind.

Perhaps some level of suspension setup reduces tyre wear dramatically but I wonder how much of that could also be achieved by setting up the stock suspension correctly?

It is very much a strange point that spending great wads of money on suspension saves money because my posts are not directed at the guys spending just a few bucks, more at those spending many thousands.

Has anyone here got some actual FACTS on the amount of dosh spent on the top bikes suspension? Opinion seems a waste of time.
Of course this thread isn't just about suspension, we could extend that and ask how much money is being spent on a standard Suzuki or Yamaha in order to lead the class? If it totals the amount you could buy an R spec bike for; why are they excluded?

If it is so much that it makes winning almost unachievable by those with bugger all money to spend and reduces class sizes and spectatator numbers; is it actually promoting the sport?


Its the EXACT point, on especially the bikes with horsepower ( 600 AND 1000cc, even in stock form ) they will screw tyres very quickly on a racetrack. No matter if they have the ''correct'' setup externally. In many forms of media including KB I have laboriously explained this in great detail again and again and again.
But dont listen to me, Im only at the coalface every day dealing with same.

[scrivy]

In total defence of Shaun. He has had a lot of help from many people inside and outside of the industry over the years. And paid that back with great results. Now he is putting ALL of his own money back into the sport helping up and coming riders. If he can derive some income as well from it the all the very best to him, I am aware that officially its not a crime.


Really guys (Robert and Shaun), you two need to get a room!!!!! :love::shutup::shit::laugh::whistle::rofl:

Scrivy - taking the piss......

[scrivy]

P.s......

Good to see you two getting on again....... :shifty:

[Shaun S]

Aaah back to this one again are we?

Thank fuck for Scrivy - because seriously guys this is getting stale. Nothing has changed since this started, or has someone actually done something that I am not aware of? <_<

[idleidolidyll]

Its the EXACT point, on especially the bikes with horsepower ( 600 AND 1000cc, even in stock form ) they will screw tyres very quickly on a racetrack. No matter if they have the ''correct'' setup externally. In many forms of media including KB I have laboriously explained this in great detail again and again and again.
But dont listen to me, Im only at the coalface every day dealing with same.

More red herrings? Yawn

No, THE issue is the content of the first post not the small time trade off of suspension against tyre life.

The REAL issue is the lack of crowds, the small numbers on the start line.

The REAL issue is that a focus on money seems to have driven the sport into the ground.

[Tony.OK]

More red herrings? Yawn

No, THE issue is the content of the first post not the small time trade off of suspension against tyre life.

The REAL issue is the lack of crowds, the small numbers on the start line.That'd be largely due to a definate lack of advertising I believe........and that in turn requires money........who organises that?

The REAL issue is that a focus on money seems to have driven the sport into the ground.
Having a true prod class wont change that much at all, people simply can't afford to do the entire Nats, regardless of bike costs.


Am in agreement re the "R" spec'd bikes, money spent upgrading a base model would be more anyway, and even an "R" model will need money spent to race prep it.

[slowpoke]

Idleidolidyll, I reckon you've got to take a hard look at what exactly is the problem.

The grids have looked pretty bloody healthy at both rounds of the Winter Series so far, were absolutely bulging at Scrivy's RRS, and the street series, so participation at grass roots level is not an issue.

Looking down the track (excuse the pun) I think VMCC have also made some solid improvements that will have a positive impact at both ends of the racing spectrum. The 250 class should be a hoot for the cash strapped and/or newcomers alike, while the more equitable track time arrangements for superbikes are also making the big bikes a viable option again. I for one have gone from wondering why the hell I bother with a Superbike to being happy as a pig in poo at both rounds I've done so far.

Personally I don't understand the attitude you mention of people not being able to win so they quit. To me that signifies a mindset of loving winning rather than loving the sport. I'd rather spend a petrol soaked weekend surrounded by folks of the latter persuasion.

MNZ have made some positive changes too, I think, with the new class arrangements. They aren't doing nothing but the time taken to react to the situation in Road Racing, and the changes they have/haven't made, are open to debate.

[prettybillie]

This seems to be a similar discussion to what is happening at a club level.

The similarities seem to be that everyone is happy to bitch, but no-one is happy to man up, take on the job and actually make the changes you want to see.

These guys work really hard and if you don't like what is happening, go get yourselves on the committee so you can have a say that will actually be heard by people that can make the changes.

If you don't want to, don't have time, don't care enough - stop bitching!

[Robert Taylor]

More red herrings? Yawn

No, THE issue is the content of the first post not the small time trade off of suspension against tyre life.

The REAL issue is the lack of crowds, the small numbers on the start line.

The REAL issue is that a focus on money seems to have driven the sport into the ground.


Small time? What flipping planet are you on or what are you smoking? Suspension and tyre setup is almost everything on a Superbike ( and 600s ) As all those who ACTUALLY RACE modern 600s AND 1000s will testify.

The issues with cost have a hell of lot to more to do with downtime, travel and accomodation. And maybe many people would rather be on holiday through January? Numbers at VMCC round 2 were very healthy and a lot of those bikes were very well spec'd.

Others have put forward very solid reasons for low Nationals numbers, again and again and again.

I agree that R spec bikes should be allowed. And if people want to spend huge money let them, it invariably employs people and services.

[cowpoos]

Yawn


You don't seem to be as EDUCATED as you think you are...

What you may know from the past....may not be entirely relevant now.
and your arguements are petty at times as well as antagonising.

[GSVR]

I bet theres alot of guys out there that wish their suspension was set up as well as Andrew Strouds or Robby Bugdens. Those guys must save plenty not having to fit new tyres after every race! Or do they?

How many races did Hayden and Sherriffs get out of their Pirellis on the weekend just gone ?

It was Jonesy getting the best tyre wear this year I heard.

[cowpoos]

I bet theres alot of guys out there that wish their suspension was set up as well as Andrew Strouds or Robby Bugdens. .

Considering the are running the same gear that a hell of alot of club racers...
Its actually more down to the riders to set the bike up, with there feed back...

re the tyres...ummm...they will change them regardless if okay or not...any little advantage!! Andrew tests on old race tyres...and is about 300ths of a second slower a lap at pukie on them...shows how good the suspension is aye ;)

[Robert Taylor]

I bet theres alot of guys out there that wish their suspension was set up as well as Andrew Strouds or Robby Bugdens. Those guys must save plenty not having to fit new tyres after every race! Or do they?

How many races did Hayden and Sherriffs get out of their Pirellis on the weekend just gone ?

It was Jonesy getting the best tyre wear this year I heard.

Dont believe everything you hear. Stroud had great tyre wear all season, and if you were at Pukekohe that Yamaha was visibly handling badly after the hairpin.

Hayden only had one x SC1 rear available until Craig lent him a 2. Craigs tyres especially looked good, considering how old the batches were.

The cold shear problems with that long track in winter are well documented. Had everyone been using stock suspension the problem would have been HUGE.

[Kickaha]

again; if the sport was bigger in the 70's and 80's BEFORE the money came, should we perhaps look backward to fix todays problems?

It was also before PC games, playstations, cheap cars, bikes and finance


However, last time I looked, Robert Taylor wasn't on the NBR rich list, rather he's a guy with a passion for motorcycle racing and provides by all accounts a bloody good service to racers at the Ohlins brand. We need to support people like Robert and get rid of people that hold back progress.

He provides an outstanding service and not just to those that race


Try racing an old piece of shit sidecar worth $20,000 against a $120,000 LCR.
You guys go on about $50,000 bikes - try to beat a $120,000 machine!!!
I'm banging my head against a wall.....

:yawn: Like I haven't heard that a hundred times before



I prefer my short one........... :shutup::laugh: :crybaby:

I heard sidecarbob likes your short one to.... orally


And you ride it well indeed. A question though, do you think you'd be faster on an LCR? I know quite little about rigs, but I'm told the long chair doesn't respond as well to aggression. And having seen you pilot you're beast, the ONLY thing it responds to is aggression.

Much as I hate to say it, I think if you put Scurvy and sidecarboob on an LCR and they came to grips with it, no one in the country would get close to them

Luckily enough for the rest of us they're a a pair of LCR hating pink frilly girls blouses so that day will never come



one way to encourage more riders to the nationals, is to reduce the 3 days to 2 days, and drop the trip to Invercargill for a year or 2, untill finance becomes healthier.

Reducing to 2 days wont work, people will just travel to club rounds to get track experience or will front up earlier in the week and hire the track and it will end up costing more than running three days anyway, the Friday is only unofficial so they don't have to do it

Alterante between Teretonga and Levels so there is only two SI rounds

[Paul in NZ]

I had short lived hopes that Slowpoke had won the 35 million and was going to donate some of it to motorcycle racing but then found out it was a goup of ladies.

Sorry mate, I'm confused, someone was going to donate some $$ to racing and then found out it was a bunch of ladies or a bunch of ladies won the money?

Either way Max is the boy these guys need... People would PAY to go to one of Max's parties...

[Robert Taylor]

In the immortal words of Margaret Thatcher, ''no point in looking back into the past, we are not going there''.

[Paul in NZ]

In the immortal words of Margaret Thatcher, ''no point in looking back into the past, we are not going there''.

True but then again, if you ignore history you may be doomed to repeat it.... Which is wot MT's mum said when she was born....

[Drew]

Righto then, we've established fuck all, and dredged up a thread most people had forgotten.

The original topic was a whinge at RT, and some others that have "bashed" mnz, and it's top man.

There is a simple answer to the post.


HARDEN THE FUCK UP!!!

You took some shit personally, boo fuckin hoo! It was not directed at you, and you have imagined the context in which to put it.

Everyone has an opinion, deal with it! At your stage in life ya should really have come to terms with it.




III, you have yet to make a valid point. Other than piss people off, and bum lick the Pavs, you've acheived nothing. Just piss off already.

[Robert Taylor]

True but then again, if you ignore history you may be doomed to repeat it.... Which is wot MT's mum said when she was born....

Thats a valid point as well which has its place. Off topic but it appears (formerly ) Great Britain needs a solid dose of Thatcherism again given that the disastrous Gordon botchup Brown has destroyed the place, well beyond the effects of the recession.


One of the mistakes of our motorcycle road racing past is that we didnt carry on with the Marlboro series, a series with world class ( and high cost )machinery and top riders. People want to see spectacular fast machinery. No different than if you go to auto racing, you go to watch the V8s and you go and buy a hotdog when the Formula Firsts are monotonously crawling around the track.

[Drew]

Thats a valid point as well which has its place. Off topic but it appears (formerly ) Great Britain needs a solid dose of Thatcherism again given that the disastrous Gordon botchup Brown has destroyed the place, well beyond the effects of the recession. Ahhhhh, you're an antagonist too.:lol:



People want to see spectacular fast machinery. No different than if you go to auto racing, you go to watch the V8s and you go and buy a hotdog when the Formula Firsts are monotonously crawling around the track.My bikes spectacularly fast, and presented.



COME WATCH ME RACE PEOPLE!!

[Paul in NZ]

One of the mistakes of our motorcycle road racing past is that we didnt carry on with the Marlboro series, a series with world class ( and high cost )machinery and top riders. People want to see spectacular fast machinery. No different than if you go to auto racing, you go to watch the V8s and you go and buy a hotdog when the Formula Firsts are monotonously crawling around the track.

Yes and no...

The mistake was motorcycle racers thought they knew what the public wanted but... they didn't...

People want spectacular period... and, they want to be TOLD its spectacular...

[Drew]

, they want to be TOLD its spectacular...Not sure I get your meaning here Paul. Are saying folks cant decide what is spectacular for themselves, or fore warned that something will be spectacular. I prefer the latter if it were only true that people would come in droves.

"Ladies, I'm a spectacular lover"!

Might not be true, but they wont find that out till I'm done now will they.

[NDORFN]

at least 500km a week, sometimes 700km; you?

500-700km/week??? Lucky bastard!

[merv]

This is the table that tells part of the story http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/statistics/motor-vehicle-registration/2008/table-20.html just look at the sales figures in the 70's and 80's. Things have picked up lately because of scooter sales.

There were so many people buying bikes then which allowed the importers to spend relatively more money on racing and things like the Marlboro series, Castrol Six Hour and the Nationals under whatever name (Brut series etc) were televised, presumably paid for by sponsorship and advertising. It all came to a grinding halt as the economics of bike sales bit in. That I believe was due to two things, the general downturn and that shift of people's attention to other interests that all compete for our money. The sales figures reflect this shift of attention.

There are just so many things one can do with their money these days and its all getting diluted. The stories of car racing crowds are the same, back in the 50's and 60's crowds were huge when Stirling Moss etc came to town because it was the big event of the time. People still talk fondly of the car racing at Ardmore, Levin etc - now all gone.

The young crowds are now out at the huge turnout boy racer nights for example. Knowing my two offspring (no longer living at home and well in their twenties), they live a totally different life to what I did at that age as they don't even live in the same time zone. Even the young people I have worked with don't typically go to events during the day, they are in bed all day after their big nights out until 7.30am etc. Racers just don't race when these people are alert. You'd need to do a Qatar and have night races perhaps.

I suspect whoever is in charge at MNZ has the impossible task of trying to deal with the amazing and rapid changes that are now occurring in society.

[Paul in NZ]

Not sure I get your meaning here Paul. Are saying folks cant decide what is spectacular for themselves, or fore warned that something will be spectacular. I prefer the latter if it were only true that people would come in droves.

"Ladies, I'm a spectacular lover"!

Might not be true, but they wont find that out till I'm done now will they.

Oh they can decide OK... But they would have to be there to see it first and they are not turning up...

OK - lets try another track... Who do you think the selling of motorcycle racing is targeted at? Motorcyclists? If so, what is the biggest demographic of motorcyclists?

[scrivy]

People want spectacular period... and, they want to be TOLD its spectacular...

er..............


ok, so I've got a race meeting called the Taupo Road Race Spectacular......

Does that count??


Scrivy,


Taking the piss again.....

[Deano]

If so, what is the biggest demographic of motorcyclists?


KB fags ? :shutup::jerry:

[johan]

Oh they can decide OK... But they would have to be there to see it first and they are not turning up...

OK - lets try another track... Who do you think the selling of motorcycle racing is targeted at? Motorcyclists? If so, what is the biggest demographic of motorcyclists?

If we want more spectators to help grow the sport, I would start with hiring a camera crew and an editor for a day or a few hours.

In fact, I would already be in contact with Biggles to support what he is trying to do, that is just the product we need to catch peoples interest.

If you can't catch peoples interest while sitting in front of the TV or computer screen, you will never get them down to the dirty and noisy track.

Make the most of the new technology. It's cheap and can reach anyone with a screen.

Of course, I'm biased, coming from the media/advert industry.

[scracha]

Thats a valid point as well which has its place. Off topic but it appears (formerly ) Great Britain needs a solid dose of Thatcherism again given that the disastrous Gordon botchup Brown has destroyed the place, well beyond the effects of the recession.


Off topic but...

Sorry Dr Bob but the Iron Lady completely destroyed the future of non home owners (i.e. everyone under 35), students from low income familes and anyone north of the M25 in the UK. Gordie Broon hasn't been in power long enough to have caused the complete fuckup that is currently the UK.

People have short memories of how bad Britain was when the tories were in power.


Johan, my sentiments exactly and I've suggested it in the past. Can't see why we're all obsessed about having spectators sat freezing their arse off at the track when they could be sat watching the far better 'on board' bike action on their couch.

[Robert Taylor]

er..............


ok, so I've got a race meeting called the Taupo Road Race Spectacular......

Does that count??


Scrivy,


Taking the piss again.....

And that was a bloody good meeting Scrivvy!

[Robert Taylor]

This is the table that tells part of the story http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/statistics/motor-vehicle-registration/2008/table-20.html just look at the sales figures in the 70's and 80's. Things have picked up lately because of scooter sales.

There were so many people buying bikes then which allowed the importers to spend relatively more money on racing and things like the Marlboro series, Castrol Six Hour and the Nationals under whatever name (Brut series etc) were televised, presumably paid for by sponsorship and advertising. It all came to a grinding halt as the economics of bike sales bit in. That I believe was due to two things, the general downturn and that shift of people's attention to other interests that all compete for our money. The sales figures reflect this shift of attention.

There are just so many things one can do with their money these days and its all getting diluted. The stories of car racing crowds are the same, back in the 50's and 60's crowds were huge when Stirling Moss etc came to town because it was the big event of the time. People still talk fondly of the car racing at Ardmore, Levin etc - now all gone.

The young crowds are now out at the huge turnout boy racer nights for example. Knowing my two offspring (no longer living at home and well in their twenties), they live a totally different life to what I did at that age as they don't even live in the same time zone. Even the young people I have worked with don't typically go to events during the day, they are in bed all day after their big nights out until 7.30am etc. Racers just don't race when these people are alert. You'd need to do a Qatar and have night races perhaps.

I suspect whoever is in charge at MNZ has the impossible task of trying to deal with the amazing and rapid changes that are now occurring in society.

Yes that about sums it up. Now that there are new elected members of MNZ we should see a more rational and balanced approach to the future direction. To think that we can again have the crowds of the 70s is a pipe dream. Some realignment of meetings and dates will be part of the answer.

[Robert Taylor]

Off topic but...

Sorry Dr Bob but the Iron Lady completely destroyed the future of non home owners (i.e. everyone under 35), students from low income familes and anyone north of the M25 in the UK. Gordie Broon hasn't been in power long enough to have caused the complete fuckup that is currently the UK.

People have short memories of how bad Britain was when the tories were in power.


Johan, my sentiments exactly and I've suggested it in the past. Can't see why we're all obsessed about having spectators sat freezing their arse off at the track when they could be sat watching the far better 'on board' bike action on their couch.

I beg to differ, I lived there from 81 through 85 and the realignment / tough medicine was neccessary. I hopped off a plane at Heathrow during a cold February 81 and I can remember vividly the girl on the administraion desk asking me ''what the bloody hell do you want to come here for''. There were 3 million unemployed at that time and I got a job no problem. Sure I had qualifications and skills but I was also prepared to work very hard and that didnt go down so well with some of my English work colleauges after years of socialist / unionist ''the world owes me a living'' conditioning.
MT of course inherited a very broken economy from an outgoing Labour administration that had gone cap in hand to the IMF. Next June ( or earlier ) the incoming David Cameron led Conservative administration will inherit an even worse mess.
And yes I did travel to the North.

Why do we race so much in cold temps? Thats a reasonable question I think.

[Quasievil]

To think that we can again have the crowds of the 70s is a pipe dream. Some realignment of meetings and dates will be part of the answer.

yeah we can bro, but not in anyway related to the current format. Yes realignment of dates and meetings, but the modern world is about entertainment and the fight for that dollar.
I have said elsewhere about my "BIG SHOW" idea until a "BIG SHOW" happens the NZ bike racing scene will basically trumble along with the same catchment of spectators forever.
I still say 4 rounds max for a Nationals event finishing with one "BIG SHOW" held at Hampton Downs with a long weekend of racing, complimented by support races (motards, 4wd race bikes whatever you can pack in) entertainment at night etc etc.

Proof of my argument exists in Paeroa, Wanganui, the Hamilton V8's these events are successful in attracting the public, hence the flow on effect of the dollar, once the dollar is involved it rolls right through the entire NZ racing scene.

Trolling NZ Nationals events throughout the length and breadth of NZ over 3-4 months is a laboured and frankly boring process which does no one any favours.

lol thats my view and Im sticking to it.:Punk:

[Drew]

OK - lets try another track... Who do you think the selling of motorcycle racing is targeted at? Motorcyclists? If so, what is the biggest demographic of motorcyclists?

Nope, the general public is who we want barred up about this. How many car racers go to watch the Hamilton 400? Fuck all compared to the normal folk.

There needs to be a marketing campeign, with big enough budget to target a MASSIVE audience. 18 to 55 year olds, male and female.

I would guess it needed six different tv ad's to cover those demographic. Full page spreads in a variety of magazines, from womans day, to top gear. FHM, MAXIM, the ones MOST people read like.

Go huge, the spectators will come.

[SixPackBack]

yeah we can bro, but not in anyway related to the current format. Yes realignment of dates and meetings, but the modern world is about entertainment and the fight for that dollar.
I have said elsewhere about my "BIG SHOW" idea until a "BIG SHOW" happens the NZ bike racing scene will basically trumble along with the same catchment of spectators forever.
I still say 4 rounds max for a Nationals event finishing with one "BIG SHOW" held at Hampton Downs with a long weekend of racing, complimented by support races (motards, 4wd race bikes whatever you can pack in) entertainment at night etc etc.

Proof of my argument exists in Paeroa, Wanganui, the Hamilton V8's these events are successful in attracting the public, hence the flow on effect of the dollar, once the dollar is involved it rolls right through the entire NZ racing scene.

Trolling NZ Nationals events throughout the length and breadth of NZ over 3-4 months is a laboured and frankly boring process which does no one any favours.

lol thats my view and Im sticking to it.:Punk:

Yup you got it Quasi. Throw in some entertainment for children and the wives and get the whole family along.

[Paul in NZ]

Nope, the general public is who we want barred up about this. How many car racers go to watch the Hamilton 400? Fuck all compared to the normal folk.

There needs to be a marketing campeign, with big enough budget to target a MASSIVE audience. 18 to 55 year olds, male and female.

I would guess it needed six different tv ad's to cover those demographic. Full page spreads in a variety of magazines, from womans day, to top gear. FHM, MAXIM, the ones MOST people read like.

Go huge, the spectators will come.

Its not that simple Drew and i think you may have mis understood me.

A certain sector of motorcyclists will always come BUT racing is currently set up to please the racers and not the uniformed spectator who really couldn't give a root what colour the front forks are.... The bikes go past so quick in the short time you can see them that you can't really tell anyway...

However its a tricky job because if you want to attract new crowds you have to do it in a way that does not disenfarnchise your loyal audience which is your basic bread and butter...

One way to increase crowds in the short term is to work in with the organisers of a successful rally and combine the events. That might mean a smaller meeting with better focus on popular (with the crowds) classes of racing. People could have a few beers, camp the night, listen to a band etc. You might need to be clever about the mix of racing though. Look at cricket as an example, the players and purists want the 5 day test match, the public wants 20/20....

If the most popular bike on the road is an HD - HD racing might work (especially if you can get HOG behind it) or Hyosong 250 racing...

An evening event is a good idea. A short Motard / superbike street race / sprint in a city as a promo.

Scooter racing?

Naked cheerleaders on superbikes jumping through burning hoops juggled by latex clad midget clowns if thats what people will pay to see - slip the serious stuff in and who knows people might like it...

OK - heres a question. Say I was the marketing manager of a international or national brand with some coin to spend on an attention grabbing event? Why would I go with motorcycle racing? Answer - I wouldn't because it's about as useful as sponsoring emerging artists, they are so starved of love they just grab all the free food n booze they can and fuck off forgetting that the sponsor needs to show a return on their investment.

Heres another question - the company I work for has a supplier deal with Actrix who sponsor some racing - it's not beyond reason for us to step up and support our customers sponsored events but why would we? There is nothing but pain and grief... I can spend $5,000 on an advert in midget porn monthly and get a better return.

[Quasievil]

Naked cheerleaders on superbikes jumping through burning hoops juggled by latex clad midget clowns if thats what people will pay to see


Hold up hold up, now lets explore this idea further (with pics preferably)

[wharfy]

Naked cheerleaders on superbikes jumping through burning hoops juggled by latex clad midget clowns......
........ I can spend $5,000 on an advert in midget porn monthly and get a better return.

How tall are you ?

:)


I actually agree and have said in other threads EVENTS like Wanganui, Paeroa should give an indication of what the public want, for some it is just to get pissed in the sun and do dumb shit. A big problem with circuit racing is getting a view of the track. A knowledgeable commentator helps (the guy that does the Vic Club winter series is pretty good.)

[slowpoke]

yeah we can bro, but not in anyway related to the current format. Yes realignment of dates and meetings, but the modern world is about entertainment and the fight for that dollar.
I have said elsewhere about my "BIG SHOW" idea until a "BIG SHOW" happens the NZ bike racing scene will basically trumble along with the same catchment of spectators forever.
I still say 4 rounds max for a Nationals event finishing with one "BIG SHOW" held at Hampton Downs with a long weekend of racing, complimented by support races (motards, 4wd race bikes whatever you can pack in) entertainment at night etc etc.

Proof of my argument exists in Paeroa, Wanganui, the Hamilton V8's these events are successful in attracting the public, hence the flow on effect of the dollar, once the dollar is involved it rolls right through the entire NZ racing scene.

Trolling NZ Nationals events throughout the length and breadth of NZ over 3-4 months is a laboured and frankly boring process which does no one any favours.

lol thats my view and Im sticking to it.:Punk:

Hmmmmm, I kinda agree and disagree with you Quasi.

I like the idea of a series where it's not decided by one DNF, and where a variety of tracks are used so in that regard I like that every track in NZ is visited at the moment, it's not there are that many anyway. As it stands with the current arrangements the series has time to evolve and change complexion as riders face the different challenges of each track......

....but agree that NZ isn't really suited to this, either geographically or financially. It's not the UK where most competitors/spectators can reasonably drive between most tracks in a day. That mongrel bit of water makes it expensive and time consuming to travel 20 odd km's. And even if you do make the effort the facilities aren't exactly stellar when you get there, so competotors are forced to lug compressors, generators, tyre changing equipment, fuel etc wherever they go, while spectators have to stand or sit on soggy wooden seating out in the weather, clutching the standard hotdog and chips.

To take your "Big Show" idea even further, and generate instant excitement, for both competitors and spectators alike, how's about condensing the series down to just two rounds: one in each island? Make the rounds close to the major population centres (Auckland and Christchurch) so Hampton Downs and Ruapuna (possibly Levels), 3 races at each round.

Would ultra short mean ultra sweet? It would certainly be a lot more realistic proposition for a lot more competitors.

[slowpoke]

...BUT racing is currently set up to please the racers and not the uniformed spectator who really couldn't give a root what colour the front forks are....



That's just it, going by the numbers at the Nationals the racers aren't pleased either........

.......and getting back to the original topic , hence the discontent with MNZ and by inference, Paul Pav and co.

[Robert Taylor]

yeah we can bro, but not in anyway related to the current format. Yes realignment of dates and meetings, but the modern world is about entertainment and the fight for that dollar.
I have said elsewhere about my "BIG SHOW" idea until a "BIG SHOW" happens the NZ bike racing scene will basically trumble along with the same catchment of spectators forever.
I still say 4 rounds max for a Nationals event finishing with one "BIG SHOW" held at Hampton Downs with a long weekend of racing, complimented by support races (motards, 4wd race bikes whatever you can pack in) entertainment at night etc etc.

Proof of my argument exists in Paeroa, Wanganui, the Hamilton V8's these events are successful in attracting the public, hence the flow on effect of the dollar, once the dollar is involved it rolls right through the entire NZ racing scene.

Trolling NZ Nationals events throughout the length and breadth of NZ over 3-4 months is a laboured and frankly boring process which does no one any favours.

lol thats my view and Im sticking to it.:Punk:

I agree with that and the inaugural Tri series has to a point demonstrated the virtues of such a direction. The key point is its not so much about machine specs, its venues, dates and promotion.

[Robert Taylor]

Yup you got it Quasi. Throw in some entertainment for children and the wives and get the whole family along.

And lots of trade stalls.

[Shaun]

Bring back the NZ F1 and F2 rules, and grids will be over full

[Paul in NZ]

Hold up hold up, now lets explore this idea further (with pics preferably)

Nah mate - naked sweaty male cheerleaders from the Bloodknot Tripe n Black Pudding Eating Assoc .

But you get my point - even the wellington Pheonix soccer dudes had two chicks in body paint on segways (and a few scraps of cloth) hooning around cuba mall pumping up the punters... Any it was COLD....

[Drew]

How the fuck can you say people dont want to see bike racing? Been to Pearoa or Wanganui lately? 10,000 spectators, with NO view of the track, and $25 to get in.


Promote, promote, promote!!!

[SixPackBack]

How the fuck can you say people dont want to see bike racing? Been to Pearoa or Wanganui lately? 10,000 spectators, with NO view of the track, and $25 to get in.


Promote, promote, promote!!!

Both great events, both poorly managed.

[Drew]

Both great events, both poorly managed.I fully agree, but both also generate good crowds. Imagine either of them with lunch time entertainment. Something that doesn't have bikes I mean. Something for mum and the kids.

[slowpoke]

How the fuck can you say people dont want to see bike racing? Been to Pearoa or Wanganui lately? 10,000 spectators, with NO view of the track, and $25 to get in...

I hear ya Drew but these are pretty unique events: there aren't many places in the world where there's nothing between you and the racing except a bit of chicken wire. The sights, sounds and sensations of standing inches from the action is a bit different to a conventional race circuit. Not to mention the road circuits are literally in their backyards.

Having said that, the non-motorcylists out here at work who enjoy the odd bit of bike racing I force 'em to watch tells me we have a good product, it just has to be marketed. Unfortunately my nana's knitting circle could do a better job of this area than MNZ have done.

[Drew]

Unfortunately my nana's knitting circle could do a better job of this area than MNZ have done.

LOL, getting a dig in to MNZ in the "whaaa whaa dont bash my brother" thread.

Bling well deserved.

I say it a lot, so once more wont hurt. Promote something, and put it on telle. Fuck, a reality TV series, about bike racers, with sponsorship as the prize. People could see our struggles, and I stand as good a chance as the next guy of winning:banana:

[Robert Taylor]

Bring back the NZ F1 and F2 rules, and grids will be over full

Heck, that makes sense.

[SixPackBack]

Heck, that makes sense.

Adequate attendance and interest from the general public are far more important. With sufficient crowd numbers comes greater advertisment dollars, investment within the sport and the ability to run whatever racing classes desired.

Time to start thinking along the lines of entertainment rather than racing, and to look at the issues holistically rather than getting mired in detail.

IMHO someone like Quasi or Eddie could run these events far more effectively than the current tired individuals.

[scrivy]

And that was a bloody good meeting Scrivvy!
Cheers Robert!



Yup you got it Quasi. Throw in some entertainment for children and the wives and get the whole family along.
Checked out the happenings at the TRRS on my website Sixpack? Thats exactly what I have in mind too.



One way to increase crowds in the short term is to work in with the organisers of a successful rally and combine the events. That might mean a smaller meeting with better focus on popular (with the crowds) classes of racing. People could have a few beers, camp the night, listen to a band etc. You might need to be clever about the mix of racing though.

Being organised Paul, being organised.....



And lots of trade stalls.
Hell, if any want to set up at Taupo, PM me and you're welcome!!


I fully agree, but both also generate good crowds. Imagine either of them with lunch time entertainment. Something that doesn't have bikes I mean. Something for mum and the kids.
As I said, being organised!


Adequate attendance and interest from the general public are far more important. With sufficient crowd numbers comes greater advertisment dollars, investment within the sport and the ability to run whatever racing classes desired.

Time to start thinking along the lines of entertainment rather than racing, and to look at the issues holistically rather than getting mired in detail.


Hence the tie in with the past riders re-union......... legends mentoring the up and coming........

I'm trying all your ideas guys, I just hope it lifts NZs motorcycle racing scene! God knows we need it to!!
I would love motorcycle racing to get more exposure than rugby on TV!!

My ambitions may be high, but I'm prepared to put my $$ where my heart and mouth are - er..... just don't tell the missus...... :dodge:

[98tls]

Scrivy did those Marlboro series DVDs turn up ok?

[scrivy]

Scrivy did those Marlboro series DVDs turn up ok?

Glad you mentioned it mate. Today in the mail!!! You sir are a gentleman!!
I will watch them both with joy!!

[98tls]

Glad you mentioned it mate. Today in the mail!!! You sir are a gentleman!!
I will watch them both with joy!! Good stuff,theres some great ole sidecar action on there.Enjoy.

[racer40]

to robert & shaun, as you will see on the suzuki tri series entry forms we are running F1 & F2 classes ( just what you want eh )

[Shaun]

to robert & shaun, as you will see on the suzuki tri series entry forms we are running F1 & F2 classes ( just what you want eh )



Great reading

[roadracingoldfart]

Bring back the NZ F1 and F2 rules, and grids will be over full


Heck, that makes sense.



So why not combine the classes into 1 race like F3 and Pro Twins are at the moment.
Im about to do a mod to a CBR600 that will allow it to run in P/C junior still but will make it ineligable for F2 ( S/P ) so its taking 1 bike away from a cross entry possibility.
There are alot of older 600s that can be made to go very well on a track for thier age but they cant enter S/P because of the limitations in the rules.

In the early 90s we actually had 1 bike doing both classes
(Junior Proddy & F2) and we changed the bits over between races , thats just silly i know but we couldnt afford 2 bikes.
Now there is a certain affordability to older bikes and they can be given a workover fairly easily.
Budget is the main reason races are saying not doing the Nats etc but if the bike costs a fraction of what we have on the grid now then surely its going to allow more races to compete. Track time is track time and a bike is a bike and if competing against similar likes then all is almost level , i think.

Is it really that simple or am i dreaming again ???

Paul.

[Robert Taylor]

So why not combine the classes into 1 race like F3 and Pro Twins are at the moment.
Im about to do a mod to a CBR600 that will allow it to run in P/C junior still but will make it ineligable for F2 ( S/P ) so its taking 1 bike away from a cross entry possibility.
There are alot of older 600s that can be made to go very well on a track for thier age but they cant enter S/P because of the limitations in the rules.

In the early 90s we actually had 1 bike doing both classes
(Junior Proddy & F2) and we changed the bits over between races , thats just silly i know but we couldnt afford 2 bikes.
Now there is a certain affordability to older bikes and they can be given a workover fairly easily.
Budget is the main reason races are saying not doing the Nats etc but if the bike costs a fraction of what we have on the grid now then surely its going to allow more races to compete. Track time is track time and a bike is a bike and if competing against similar likes then all is almost level , i think.

Is it really that simple or am i dreaming again ???

Paul.

No theres a lot of merit in what you say and Im glad Shaun bought it up.

Heck, the communist agitator that dredged and restarted this thread must be laughing his red socks off!

[Shaun]

So why not combine the classes into 1 race like F3 and Pro Twins are at the moment.
Im about to do a mod to a CBR600 that will allow it to run in P/C junior still but will make it ineligable for F2 ( S/P ) so its taking 1 bike away from a cross entry possibility.
There are alot of older 600s that can be made to go very well on a track for thier age but they cant enter S/P because of the limitations in the rules.

In the early 90s we actually had 1 bike doing both classes
(Junior Proddy & F2) and we changed the bits over between races , thats just silly i know but we couldnt afford 2 bikes.
Now there is a certain affordability to older bikes and they can be given a workover fairly easily.
Budget is the main reason races are saying not doing the Nats etc but if the bike costs a fraction of what we have on the grid now then surely its going to allow more races to compete. Track time is track time and a bike is a bike and if competing against similar likes then all is almost level , i think.

Is it really that simple or am i dreaming again ???

Paul.




with the F1 and F2 rules back in place, there would be NO need nor room to combine f1 and F2, there would be to many bikes entered.

[Drew]

So why not combine the classes into 1 race like F3 and Pro Twins are at the moment.
Im about to do a mod to a CBR600 that will allow it to run in P/C junior still but will make it ineligable for F2 ( S/P ) so its taking 1 bike away from a cross entry possibility.
There are alot of older 600s that can be made to go very well on a track for thier age but they cant enter S/P because of the limitations in the rules.


Is it really that simple or am i dreaming again ???

Paul.

Cheaper to run that old bike? I dont think so at all, particularly when you consider how much the bike I'm garaging for someone cost. Came with spare rims (wearing a very good set of wet tyres too), and Ohlins equipped. There is no way the ongoing running cost of the CBR can be kept as low as this thing, and would NEVER run as high in the field with the same rider.

I know you have a passion for making bikes do better in a current field, than perhaps thought possible, but at some point Paul you will have to concede. Newer is faster, and racers are result driven.

Dont anyone bullshit me with the, "just out there for fun". Because at the end of the day, EVERY single one of us measures their results against others on the track. And we all wanted to "chase down that one next guy", or "I could hang on to the fast guys for only so long".

[roadracingoldfart]

Cheaper to run that old bike? I dont think so at all, particularly when you consider how much the bike I'm garaging for someone cost. Came with spare rims (wearing a very good set of wet tyres too), and Ohlins equipped. There is no way the ongoing running cost of the CBR can be kept as low as this thing, and would NEVER run as high in the field with the same rider.

I know you have a passion for making bikes do better in a current field, than perhaps thought possible, but at some point Paul you will have to concede. Newer is faster, and racers are result driven.

Dont anyone bullshit me with the, "just out there for fun". Because at the end of the day, EVERY single one of us measures their results against others on the track. And we all wanted to "chase down that one next guy", or "I could hang on to the fast guys for only so long".



I agree with you Drew , newer is faster but really , in reality the cost of going faster is dictated by the cost and thats unfortunately not within reach of alot of racers.
One thing i will state is , a newer bike IS faster by along shot but if that newer bike gets a mechanical issue or suffers a crash i know the cost of reinstating that newer bike is going to cost a shit load more than an older bike.
With an older bike you can get a whole wreck or dog bone special for less than the cost of newer shit.
Hell mate , old is good :shit: , just like me :no: :laugh:

PS: if that bike in your garage gets anywhere near as fast as my times on an old bike :blink: (they used to be ok ) , i will come out of retirment and smack :2guns: the little prick.

Paul.

[roadracingoldfart]

No theres a lot of merit in what you say and Im glad Shaun bought it up.

Heck, the communist agitator that dredged and restarted this thread must be laughing his red socks off!


I love to see commies sqirm lol . Its like the smell of race fuel in the morning.

So Dr Bob , who do we talk to about this , clubs , MNZ , ???? start a vigilante group and rape and pillage and hang all the menfolk .?

Paul.

[Drew]

PS: if that bike in your garage gets anywhere near as fast as my times on an old bike :blink: (they used to be ok ) , i will come out of retirment and smack :2guns: the little prick.

Paul.

If it doesn't get as fast as your times, I'll smack the prick. Be realistic mate, what's here is another world from what you rode. Light, stable, and wearing radials for crying out loud! (:laugh:Couldn't resist sorry old fella).

The chassis on it are not what let them down against the big boys, and 10% less power as a four, is theoretically 7.5% as a triple.

I've got a couple ideas on how to do it differently, that should reduce a bit more drag than the current example. If I get a chance to debate with whoever is gonna do the work of course.

[roadracingoldfart]

If it doesn't get as fast as your times, I'll smack the prick. Be realistic mate, what's here is another world from what you rode. Light, stable, and wearing radials for crying out loud! (:laugh:Couldn't resist sorry old fella).

The chassis on it are not what let them down against the big boys, and 10% less power as a four, is theoretically 7.5% as a triple.

I've got a couple ideas on how to do it differently, that should reduce a bit more drag than the current example. If I get a chance to debate with whoever is gonna do the work of course.


Ahhhhh pffffftt Who are we talkin about , captain 125GP lines ??? he couldnt beat me if i put my dick in his hand and gave him instructions.
I know the bikes capable but hes just a pussy :blink: and i cant wait for his reaction to this topic hehehehehe ...... :laugh:

And theres a perception of THAT bike coming here from what angle. lmfao

[Drew]

Ahhhhh pffffftt Who are we talkin about , captain 125GP lines ??? Touche
he couldnt beat me if i put my dick in his hand and gave him instructions.Is shudder at the image.

I know the bikes capable but hes just a pussy :blink: and i cant wait for his reaction to this topic hehehehehe ...... :laugh:Me too.


And theres a perception of THAT bike coming here from what angle. lmfaoI think the bike will end up where the current example emerged. Hope not though, I wanna see it happening. I've actually got some experience with some similar attempts.

[scracha]

I think the bike will end up where the current example emerged. Hope not though, I wanna see it happening. I've actually got some experience with some similar attempts.
Gonna do some homework on this first. I'm in no mad rush.


You's are a pair of bar-stewards BTW :innocent:

Paul, bad choice using a 22 year old bike as an example but I think what you're trying to say is that there's plenty of cheap bikes over 5 years old wot could be pretty competitive if the rules were relaxed on them a little.

ps. If you want someone to hold your dick while you talk dirty to them then either rejoin the navy or go sidecar racing.

[Kickaha]

ps. If you want someone to hold your dick while you talk dirty to them then either rejoin the navy or go sidecar racing.

maybe on a short bike like Scurvy and sidecarbbob run but we're a bit more homophobic on the long bikes

[Drew]

maybe on a short bike like Scurvy and sidecarbbob run but we're a bit more homophobic on the long bikesToo far too reach from the swingers chair then?

[scracha]

maybe on a short bike like Scurvy and sidecarbbob run but we're a bit more homophobic on the long bikes
Doggy instead of spooning eh? I guess the swingers aren't the takers so they're OK.

Hey...and I've found the ideal bike for RoadRacingoldFart when he loses his license to old age next year.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/help-me-honda/

[scrivy]

maybe on a short bike like Scurvy and sidecarbbob run but we're a bit more homophobic on the long bikes

Say what??? and the saying Denny loves the .... isn't true?? :shutup:
You long bike guys..... matching leathers, talk about being homophobic...... it's all just a front for hiding your real lust as homosexuals!!!

I can just see you and Divvo walking along with your miniature poodles at the racetracks....... talking about raising your suspension .5 of a mm or tyre pressures .25 of a psi!!!
POOFTERS!!! :shifty:

Whereas Bob and I will jump up and down on the suspension to make sure it still works, kick the tyres, then go into town and drink a few beers, and talk about you soft homos!!!!
:rofl::rofl::slap:

[Quasievil]

Say what??? and the saying Denny loves the .... isn't true?? :shutup:
You long bike guys..... matching leathers, talk about being homophobic...... it's all just a front for hiding your real lust as homosexuals!!!

I can just see you and Divvo walking along with your miniature poodles at the racetracks....... talking about raising your suspension .5 of a mm or tyre pressures .25 of a psi!!!
POOFTERS!!! :shifty:

Whereas Bob and I will jump up and down on the suspension to make sure it still works, kick the tyres, then go into town and drink a few beers, and talk about you soft homos!!!!
:rofl::rofl::slap:


BWAAAHAAHHAHAHHAAAA Classic !!

You exclude the lower classes that ride Motards I guess

[Kickaha]

You exclude the lower classes that ride Motards I guess

Obviously, if you want to ride a dirt bike fuck off to a paddock :bleh:

[Quasievil]

Obviously, if you want to ride a dirt bike fuck off to a paddock :bleh:

Least I dont need a training wheel:2guns:

[Tony.OK]

Least I dont need a training wheel:2guns:

Oohhh now wheres that Paeroa footage............:shutup:

[scrivy]

BWAAAHAAHHAHAHHAAAA Classic !!

You exclude the lower classes that ride Motards I guess

Nah, they're hard f@ckers!! :Punk:

[scracha]

Whereas Bob and I will jump up and down on the suspension to make sure it still works, kick the tyres, then go into town and drink a few beers, and talk about you soft homos!!!!
:rofl::rofl::slap:
That's just foreplay before you two fellah's go cuddle up in your van.



Scrivy & i are probably in a great position to have a flash hotel wherever we go, but the old van is fine & quite an adventure, theres nothing wrong with a grass verge on a quiet country road to call home for the night

www.sidecardogging.co.nz

Remember kids, if you see a van bouncing up and down, they're just checking the suspension still works.

[Shaun]

Cheaper to run that old bike? I dont think so at all, particularly when you consider how much the bike I'm garaging for someone cost. Came with spare rims (wearing a very good set of wet tyres too), and Ohlins equipped. There is no way the ongoing running cost of the CBR can be kept as low as this thing, and would NEVER run as high in the field with the same rider.

I know you have a passion for making bikes do better in a current field, than perhaps thought possible, but at some point Paul you will have to concede. Newer is faster, and racers are result driven.

Dont anyone bullshit me with the, "just out there for fun". Because at the end of the day, EVERY single one of us measures their results against others on the track. And we all wanted to "chase down that one next guy", or "I could hang on to the fast guys for only so long".



OK< I have to disagree with you Drew, Look at Sketchy racers bike, I sold it to him cheap to get out there, if another $3k was spent on turning the motor into F2 Spec, there is NOT another 600 new or old that would be any faster!!!!

SO about $10k to build that bike:2guns:

[slowpoke]

OK< I have to disagree with you Drew, Look at Sketchy racers bike, I sold it to him cheap to get out there, if another $3k was spent on turning the motor into F2 Spec, there is NOT another 600 new or old that would be any faster!!!!

SO about $10k to build that bike:2guns:

The trouble is then the bloke with the new bike goes and spends $3k as well, so everyone might as well just save themselves $3k and stick to what we've got.

It's a tough call mate, I reckon there needs to be more leniency given to machine mods for older bikes, but how that is done is a can of worms. The '06 R6 and/or GSXR600 don't seem much different to the current models, yet are 4 years old, so where you draw the line is tricky.

Haha, how about a graduated system for riders to create more competition: the faster you are the older the bike you have to ride? Ah, who am I kiddin', the fast lil' fugger could be on a BSA Bantam with cross ply tyres and he'd still tear me a new arse hole.

[scrivy]

That's just foreplay before you two fellah's go cuddle up in your van.

Remember kids, if you see a van bouncing up and down, they're just checking the suspension still works.

Mate, you have seriously got me and Bob confused with Divvo and Kick!!
We sleep in Bobs van in separate beds, with a non-molestation board firmly in place between us!!!
Whereas Kick and Divvo, well, if you really need me to elaborate on those two, then you simply don't have a clue!!!
Joni misses out on sex for 2 weeks after Kicks been 'racing', as he ain't got no more love to spread around....... :laugh:

[Shaun]

The trouble is then the bloke with the new bike goes and spends $3k as well, so everyone might as well just save themselves $3k and stick to what we've got.

It's a tough call mate, I reckon there needs to be more leniency given to machine mods for older bikes, but how that is done is a can of worms. The '06 R6 and/or GSXR600 don't seem much different to the current models, yet are 4 years old, so where you draw the line is tricky.



Tha awnser to trouble you mention is very easy

Sports production YELLOW NUMBER BOARDS

F2- ANOTHER colour

ala, a class with in a class, and grids are fuller

[slowpoke]

Tha awnser to trouble you mention is very easy

Sports production YELLOW NUMBER BOARDS

F2- ANOTHER colour

ala, a class with in a class, and grids are fuller

That's how they did it in WA when I was there, and it seemed to work pretty well. The unitiated just saw full grids, while the enthusiasts saw battles throughout the field.

[sidecar bob]

That's just foreplay before you two fellah's go cuddle up in your van.


www.sidecardogging.co.nz

Remember kids, if you see a van bouncing up and down, they're just checking the suspension still works.

You guys are still getting my two sidecar riders mixed up.
Im not ashamed to say that i do that with my other rider, frequently!!

[Shaun]

That's how they did it in WA when I was there, and it seemed to work pretty well. The unitiated just saw full grids, while the enthusiasts saw battles throughout the field.



And that is how WE can put a SHOW ON for the fans, as well as fill the grids up, which is also more entertainement for the punters

[Ivan]

And that is how WE can put a SHOW ON for the fans, as well as fill the grids up, which is also more entertainement for the punters

Its a great Idea take F3 and Pro Twin for example.

2 classes in one race fans dont know the difference unless really taking notice all they see is a bunch of bikes battling it out on track and enjoy it even if im 30 seconds of the leader and dead last in pro twin I might be still mid pack dicing it up in F3.

Makes it more fun for the riders more bikes on the grid and also for the spectators alike

[Drew]

OK< I have to disagree with you Drew, Look at Sketchy racers bike, I sold it to him cheap to get out there, if another $3k was spent on turning the motor into F2 Spec, there is NOT another 600 new or old that would be any faster!!!!

SO about $10k to build that bike:2guns:

But we were talking about a 1989 CBR600. Still reckon it can be competitive and cheap?

[scracha]

But we were talking about a 1989 CBR600. Still reckon it can be competitive and cheap?

1987. Umm...no and no. Bad choice of bike the CBR as they were steel framed for aaaaages. Now an early R6 or ZX6R could be made to go pretty quick.

They could relax rules on steel-framed and/or carb'd bikes. Maybe allow different wheels, 750cc capacity and better brake calipers. Could have cheapo Thundercats, ZX7's and pre 98 GSXR750 mixing it up with the 6 hundies.

[Shaun]

But we were talking about a 1989 CBR600. Still reckon it can be competitive and cheap?


cheap yes, competive, mmmm

[scracha]

ps. If you want someone to hold your dick while you talk dirty to them then either rejoin the navy or go sidecar racing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8134596.stm

I take it all back.

HMAS Success indeed

[wharfy]

Anyone who participates in a "game" like that obviously doesn't like women at all.
It's a shame so many in the military have such low self esteem they feel they need to "prove" themselves to their mates by denigrating women. The NZ military is no better sadly.

ABS WAUGH R102710

[codgyoleracer]

Tha awnser to trouble you mention is very easy

Sports production YELLOW NUMBER BOARDS

F2- ANOTHER colour

ala, a class with in a class, and grids are fuller

F2 bike = If five years or older [U]anything goes[U] except , standard cc, standard fuel & same tyres as sportsproddy.

Would see a few trick bikes built that........

Glen

[Drew]

F2 bike = If five years or older [U]anything goes[U] except , standard cc, standard fuel & same tyres as sportsproddy.

Would see a few trick bikes built that........

Glen

Crikey! Anything goes could be a bit stiff mate. Put cams, lightened crank, and bigger valves in a K4 gixxer 600, and it'd be as fast as a Honda superbike.

[slowpoke]

Crikey! Anything goes could be a bit stiff mate. Put cams, lightened crank, and bigger valves in a K4 gixxer 600, and it'd be as fast as a Honda superbike.

Uh oh, looks like I'm gonna be in even bigger trouble than I am now....

[cowpoos]

Uh oh, looks like I'm gonna be in even bigger trouble than I am now....
well in all honesty...superbike is stretching the truth??

But on the bright side...your one isn't trying to be a two stroke!! lol

[(P)]

"classic superbike" class:

zx7r's, gsxr750's,996's,r1s,zx9s,blades,rf900s etc etc, basically anything older than 10yrs old.

[Robert Taylor]

"classic superbike" class:

zx7r's, gsxr750's,996's,r1s,zx9s,blades,rf900s etc etc, basically anything older than 10yrs old.

Have you factored in the substanial rebuild costs? Most of this stuff will be worn out.

[(P)]

Have you factored in the substanial rebuild costs? Most of this stuff will be worn out.

other "era" classes survive.

you should be all for it, as many would like to upgrade suspension.

there are so many bikes that would fit into this catagory.

[Robert Taylor]

other "era" classes survive.

you should be all for it, as many would like to upgrade suspension.

there are so many bikes that would fit into this catagory.

Thats how I know because we do custom build a lot of suspension units for both post classic road race and vintage mx. Its just that those who are interested need to have eyes wide open about restoration costs, to that end its not neccessarily cheaper than kitting out a new bike. Assuming cost is a major preoccupation?

[SS90]

Thats how I know because we do custom build a lot of suspension units for both post classic road race and vintage mx. Its just that those who are interested need to have eyes wide open about restoration costs, to that end its not neccessarily cheaper than kitting out a new bike. Assuming cost is a major preoccupation?

It may well be impossible even to give an indication on price Robert, but "approximately" what sort of cost would a punter be looking at spending on suspension if he where to send you his/her suspension for say, a 1995 GSX-R-750? (this is only an example) and requiring it to be "modified for race use" (and of course as of the age many of the components will be worn) I suspect that the staunceons will be shagged on many such examples.

Because it brings up a good point.

A (inexperienced) punter can buy such an example (possibly it has never seen the race track) and, have the suspension set up correctly, and, then it will be quite the weapon.

And, even with new suspension, the price will not be too significant.

And certainly MUCH MUCH less that buying a 2010 Superbike.

However.......it will be a 15 year old weapon!

Chances are, in less that one season (after sustained "thrashing") there will be quite a few examples with broken valves, destroyed cranks/rods etc, the repair costs well in to the thousands.

In a fantasy world (not really likely in NZ unfortunatly) what a good solution would be if some benevelant enthusiast purchased 10 such examples, reconditioned them to a level that could stand 2 or 3 seasons racing, as well as upgraded the suspension (and then, in some crazy move, sold them for COST to a punter!)

This is EXACTLY what Steve Ward and Russell Bleach did in Christchurch 8 years ago (OK, with 1989 model RS125's)

They did this as the class was dying RAPIDLY, and they knew that if someone was given the opportunity to ride a 125 that was well set up and reliable then they would continue.

Cameron Horgan (who we all know won the 125 championship) was just ONE example of a rider who benefited from this concept.

Granted, it is MUCH cheaper to do this with a 125 (no suspension upgrade needed), but, the idea worked.

Perhaps some clever person could think along the same lines?

[Drew]

It may well be impossible even to give an indication on price Robert, but "approximately" what sort of cost would a punter be looking at spending on suspension if he where to send you his/her suspension for say, a 1995 GSX-R-750? (this is only an example) and requiring it to be "modified for race use" (and of course as of the age many of the components will be worn) I suspect that the staunceons will be shagged on many such examples.

The GSXR is not the best example, since I have yet to see a cheap one, that didn't need new bushes in the "full floater", (understatement of the century), likage system.

Post classics is a fairly cheap class now, and it takes a LOT of wanking before those old nails will chuck a rod. I only wish I new then, what I know now about getting suspension sorted, (or just set up for that matter, just because I get along fast, DOES NOT mean I should max out the rebound damping front and rear)!

[Robert Taylor]

It may well be impossible even to give an indication on price Robert, but "approximately" what sort of cost would a punter be looking at spending on suspension if he where to send you his/her suspension for say, a 1995 GSX-R-750? (this is only an example) and requiring it to be "modified for race use" (and of course as of the age many of the components will be worn) I suspect that the staunceons will be shagged on many such examples.

Because it brings up a good point.

A (inexperienced) punter can buy such an example (possibly it has never seen the race track) and, have the suspension set up correctly, and, then it will be quite the weapon.

And, even with new suspension, the price will not be too significant.

And certainly MUCH MUCH less that buying a 2010 Superbike.

However.......it will be a 15 year old weapon!

Chances are, in less that one season (after sustained "thrashing") there will be quite a few examples with broken valves, destroyed cranks/rods etc, the repair costs well in to the thousands.

In a fantasy world (not really likely in NZ unfortunatly) what a good solution would be if some benevelant enthusiast purchased 10 such examples, reconditioned them to a level that could stand 2 or 3 seasons racing, as well as upgraded the suspension (and then, in some crazy move, sold them for COST to a punter!)

This is EXACTLY what Steve Ward and Russell Bleach did in Christchurch 8 years ago (OK, with 1989 model RS125's)

They did this as the class was dying RAPIDLY, and they knew that if someone was given the opportunity to ride a 125 that was well set up and reliable then they would continue.

Cameron Horgan (who we all know won the 125 championship) was just ONE example of a rider who benefited from this concept.

Granted, it is MUCH cheaper to do this with a 125 (no suspension upgrade needed), but, the idea worked.

Perhaps some clever person could think along the same lines?

In general there are already a lot of people in road racing working for no personal gain.
125s also benefit from improved suspension, its just that in NZ its not so razor competitive that someone with raw talent and stock based suspension can beat a lesser skilled rider with top shelf suspension.

[Robert Taylor]

The GSXR is not the best example, since I have yet to see a cheap one, that didn't need new bushes in the "full floater", (understatement of the century), likage system.

Post classics is a fairly cheap class now, and it takes a LOT of wanking before those old nails will chuck a rod. I only wish I new then, what I know now about getting suspension sorted, (or just set up for that matter, just because I get along fast, DOES NOT mean I should max out the rebound damping front and rear)!

Careful Drew, there are still people in relatively high places who simplistically and rather ignorantly think that maxing out comp and rebound on stock suspenders is all you need to do! (bollocks)

[SS90]

In general there are already a lot of people in road racing working for no personal gain.
125s also benefit from improved suspension, its just that in NZ its not so razor competitive that someone with raw talent and stock based suspension can beat a lesser skilled rider with top shelf suspension.

Yea, I agree 100% on all of that.:yes:

[Drew]

Careful Drew, there are still people in relatively high places who simplistically and rather ignorantly think that maxing out comp and rebound on stock suspenders is all you need to do! (bollocks)

It is all you need to do, if you're goal is most spectacular highside of the decade. (Hurts when you land though, couldn't breath right for twenty bloody minutes.)

[Pussy]

You could be the Wellington suspension guru, Drew!.... :D

[Drew]

You could be the Wellington suspension guru, Drew!.... :D

LOL. Fuck yeah, I used to be a fighter pilot.

[Pussy]

LOL. Fuck yeah, I used to be a fighter pilot.

On second thoughts.....

You don't talk enough shit :whistle: