Speed limits

[dpex]

In a society where personal responsibility has been sublimated to over-arching authority (which always knows better) an argument can be constructed for limiting vehicle speed in selected areas such as schools (during set hours) for example.

Given that huge variances in speed-limits in various Western nations clearly prove that all speed limits are entirely arbitrary and thus have no basis in fact. It follows that the continual promotion of the concept that 'speed kills' is pure nonsense except, of course, unless you believe two stationery objects can collide.

Today, and for the first time, I traversed the new Northern Toll motorway, a road equal to any European autobahn, yet there we all were, trudging along at between 100K's (the goody-two-shoes) to 140Ks. And still it seemed slow.

Surely, if all traffic is traveling in the same direction on such wide, sweeping roads such as new motorway, limiting speed to 100Ks cannot be reasonably justified.

Sure, maybe during peak-hour traffic such a limit 'might' be justified, but during the day? Nup. Such a limit is silly.

But the authorities now have relatively cheap technology able to control general speed, minute-by-minute. As we have all seen sundry schools have L.E.D lighted signs requiring a speed reduction to 40Ks during school entry exit times.

Such electronic signs can be manipulated from afar. So why can't we have variable speed limits?

On the section of motorway mentioned above any vehicle with a modestly competent driver could have traveled at 140K, and those who feel threatened always have the left lane. Good drivers with good cars could have easily managed speeds such as are achieved on the European autobahns.

So what are the NZ authorities telling us? Are they saying that NZ drivers are so far below the skill-levels of our European counterparts, or our American counterparts in states which have 'no' maximum limit?

Given that I am peripherally involved with such technology I can assert, without fear of contradiction, that twenty (each-way) solar powered, radio-controlled speed-limit signs could be placed on the new motorway, for less than $200,000 (way less).

Such signage could dictate speeds depending on traffic loading. Such signs could be split to indicate lane speeds. Right Lane. No less than X-Kph. Left Lane no more than X-Kph.

Why should we all be treated like Asian drivers, or generally moronic drivers when such a simple solution is at hand?

Maybe we need to get a hikoi together to make such a thing happen.

[martybabe]

They have such a system on the M25, the motorway that encircles London and it seems to work really well most of the time.

The bad news for you is they use it only to regulate speed down from the national limit (70mph).

Whilst I do agree that NZs national speed limit is too low on some roads, the chances of them increasing the limit are precisely zero, think of the revenue they'd lose for one thing.

[Marmoot]

So what are the NZ authorities telling us? Are they saying that NZ drivers are so far below the skill-levels of our European counterparts, or our American counterparts in states which have 'no' maximum limit?
You just answered yourself.



Surely, if all traffic is traveling in the same direction on such wide, sweeping roads such as new motorway, limiting speed to 100Ks cannot be reasonably justified.
Haven't seen a car suddenly swerve and slam into the motorway barrier without any reason, have you? Not even a blown tyres. Nothing.




Why should we all be treated like Asian drivers, or generally moronic drivers when such a simple solution is at hand?
What the f**k are you on :wacko: ...let them loose and they'll drive faster than you whiteys can say "fuck me uncle I like it real hard!".
We don't enforce speed limit in Asia so we're just driving slow here because we're not used to these lollipop signs. They're hard to read and the numbers are not even in Chinese!



Maybe we need to get a hikoi together to make such a thing happen.
Brilliant! They see you walking down the motorway and the Greens would just ban the cars altogether. "look! apparently they don't even want to use their cars"

[Grahameeboy]

Yep, cars are safer, brake better etc and the speed limit has not really changed for decades....

The idea of a speed limit is that you can stop to avoid something...that's fine in towny areas but on open roads / motorways there is scope to have a higher limit...may stop some drivers getting impatience and overtaking dangerously

[Gummie]

This is because we are all highly trained drivers that go through a rigorus training schedule just to get our learners then months if not years of driver tutoring so we can then get our restricted. :2thumbsup Now comes the intense psyco-analisys to see if we have the capacity to have passengers annoy the hell out of us while our head are in the zone of driving.:pinch:

Sorry for that most of us do a scratch and win to get a licence and are not deemed competent to do such speeds. Especialy if the person in front of them did same scratch and win only to slam brakes on in front of you because they drop there $2 cell phone on the floor and it might get scratched, bugger the $8000 car they are driving.

Thats why i like riding, no body in your head, and if you drop your cell phone somehow you just know that it will at least have a scratch on it:crazy:

[varminter]

Moderately competent driver, that would be about one in four. Yes, cars have changed, they're now full of distracting stuff, phones, mirrors, music, heaters even, no manual gear stick, why, you hardly have to concentrate at all..whoa, where the fuck did that bike come from, almost interrupted my important phone call.

[Supertwin Don]

No it fxxxxxxx dosen't - what it DOES do is seriously exacerbate the effects of vehicle operating incompetence.
One reason for keeping a speed limit "artificially" low is that when an idiot does something wrong, the effects are kept to an acceptable mimimum.
The "acceptability" varies with custom and culture - mid-eastern and asian cultures have MUCH less requirement for individual survival - In-s-allah - If the big fella says your time is up, it's gonna happen anyway!
Also, it's the DIFFERENCE in speeds that has the biggest effect - 100kph hitting 80kph = not too bad, 140kph hitting 80kph (or 0kph) = a hell of a lot worse! Not to mention that you bounce a lot further at 140 than at 100.

[nallac]

I have heard that the new motorway is super smooth @200k's..
And nobody died at that speed either...(bad bad people -SPEED KILLS)

But i agree,they say reduce your speed according to conditions
what about raising speed to suit conditions...120-140 could be perfectly safe
depending on conditions.

[Mikkel]

Whilst I do agree that NZs national speed limit is too low on some roads, the chances of them increasing the limit are precisely zero, think of the revenue they'd lose for one thing.

That, good sir, is where you are mistaken. If they raised the speedlimits most people would most likely still speed :yes:

So no need to worry about that ;)

[nallac]

never... speed kills,
i would never knowingly speed cause i don't want to kill..

[Dave Lobster]

The idea of a speed limit is that you can stop to avoid something..

Rubbish. The idea of a speed limit is to gather revenue from people exceeding it.

[Grahameeboy]

Rubbish. The idea of a speed limit is to gather revenue from people exceeding it.

Agreed but I am just saying what their a answer will be...

[Anarkist]

We don't enforce speed limit in Asia so we're just driving slow here because we're not used to these lollipop signs. They're hard to read and the numbers are not even in Chinese

Then get the fuck off my roads. If you can't read my language and drive appropriately then you can fuck right back off to where you came from.

It's a sad day when Kiwi's don't even own their own country any more.

[mujambee]

Good drivers with good cars could have easily managed speeds such as are achieved on the European autobahns.


Autobahns are specifically German, not European, and there is a proposal to change their laws and put a speed limit there (probably learned from their neighbours the huge revenue they are loosing)


They have such a system on the M25, the motorway that encircles London and it seems to work really well most of the time.
The bad news for you is they use it only to regulate speed down from the national limit (70mph).


Same here, in Madrid and Barcelona. Rush hours they reduce the speed limit.


But i agree,they say reduce your speed according to conditions
what about raising speed to suit conditions...120-140 could be perfectly safe
depending on conditions.

France has variable speed limits. Dry weather 130Kph, 110 on wet. There is no led signpost or nothing, its simply a rule there.



It's a sad day when Kiwi's don't even own their own country any more.

Ask a Maori ;)

[Marmoot]

Then get the fuck off my roads. If you can't read my language and drive appropriately then you can fuck right back off to where you came from.

It's a sad day when Kiwi's don't even own their own country any more.

Oh wow, a 12 year old racist with a red rep syndrome.
Winston Peters is your sugardaddy?

P.S.
Where did YOU come from? Even Moriori didn't spawn from this land.

[Motu]

Of course speed doesn't kill - to prove it,I suggest you ride your favorite ''easy'' stretch of road at whatever speed you feel safe - MINUS HELMET,gloves and jacket.

Is it still safe to ride at those speeds??....??

[Gremlin]

Easy, there are a bunch of muppets that aren't competent to drive at 100, let alone anything more.

[Ixion]

Of course speed kills. This I know, for the gubbermint tells me so.

[MaxCannon]

We fail to teach people how to control vehicles properly.

With the possible exception of Truck and Bus licensing (never sat one) the licensing test doesn't test your ability to operate the vehicle properly. It only goes as far as making sure you can follow a random selection of road rules without crashing for 30 minutes.

We then let people out on the roads and cross our fingers that they don't wipe someone else out.

100 kph is too fast for some of these people.
Teach everyone how to control a car (and bike) properly first - then we can worry about letting them go faster.

[scumdog]

That, good sir, is where you are mistaken. If they raised the speedlimits most people would most likely still speed :yes:

So no need to worry about that ;)

What he says is true - about ten years ago almost nobody got pinged for doing 20kph or less over the speed limit - yet heaps of tickets still got handed out to those who still wanted to drive/ride at 121kph+:crazy:

[ManDownUnder]

Of course speed doesn't kill - to prove it,I suggest you ride your favorite ''easy'' stretch of road at whatever speed you feel safe - MINUS HELMET,gloves and jacket.

Is it still safe to ride at those speeds??....??

Conversely if I'm wearing ATGATT and I jump off my bike and tumble down the road at 20kph, then repeat the exercise at 300kph being very careful to fall off at the same spot, same conditions etc... and I end up dead.

But I only changed the speed... so it does kill.

It's not as simple as saying it does or does not kill. It's a variable - one of multiple applied to the situation. Sadly we share the road with mortals not so highly evolved as you or I and they need prescriptive rules in order to live within accpetable and predictable bounds. The rule of law is also applied a lot more fairly when there's a clear test oof a rule - whether it has been broken or not.

[Mully Clown]

If you want to variably adjust speed limits, the idea would be to send out a signal to the cars which electronically restricted it.

[crash harry]

I always love these threads. There are always the same groups of responses:

"Everyone else except me is a bad driver so we need speed limits to keep them safe (I'm good though...)"
"It's all a scam to give more speeding tickets"
"Why dont we have what they do in XXXX country where it's better and they have autobahns paved with gold and everyone is a perfect driver etc"
"It's all because of asians, they can't drive blah blah blah I think racist comments are clever"


Seems to me that speed limits are a necessary evil, though I tend to think that the open road limit is a bit low and a bit heavily enforced - particularly in areas that are not accident blackspots but do just happen to be easy to hide a speed camera in. But seriously, the chances of the national speed limit being raised is about a million to one against. For a start, it would undermine all of the "Speed Kills" campaigning. And for another, it would potentially reduce revenue from speeding fines, which is budgeted for.

[crash harry]

If you want to variably adjust speed limits, the idea would be to send out a signal to the cars which electronically restricted it.

Bugger that. You're half-way through overtaking a car that's doing 80 in a 100 zone, and they choose that moment to decide to restrict your car to 80 - so you get stuck out in the passing lane in front of oncoming traffic?

If they (whoever "they" is) ever have the power to override the wishes of the driver of a vehicle like that, and we let them, then there is something very wrong.

[SteveC45]

I have been riding/ driving for over 20 years, and driven most of the roads in the country. The speed limits are there for a reason, most people out there don't know how to take lines on corners, handle cars that get out of control, understand what a wof is actually for, and don't even know how to use their indicators. Do you really want the limits raised? 20 years ago maybe, but now ?? Far too much traffic. Save it for the track.

[scumdog]

I have been riding/ driving for over 20 years, and driven most of the roads in the country. The speed limits are there for a reason, most people out there don't know how to take lines on corners, handle cars that get out of control, understand what a wof is actually for, and don't even know how to use their indicators.

Of course that doesn't apply to anybody on KB, right?:whistle:

[alanzs]

I have a radar detector, therefore I never speed. :2thumbsup

[Mully]

This reminds me of the "WOFs are a waste of time" thread.

NZ doesn't train it's drivers well. I was speaking to a German girl at work the other day. In Germany it costs thousands of Euros to get a licence and includes training on a skid pad. And if you lose your licence, you start again. Here, you let a 15 year old do a scratch and win, and his parents get to teach him their bad habits, so by 16 he's in whatever car he wants doing whatever he wants with the youthful testosterone pumping in his veins.

NZ also doesn't have high quality roads. It's far cheaper (and therefore preferable) to build cheap roads many times over. Anybody been on the freshly sealed bit of Don Buck Road - it's already fucked and it's only been in a couple of weeks.

Simply put, like WOFs, speed limits have to allow for the lowest common denominator. Muppets who don't realise their tires are underinflated/balding or bits are about to fall off the car need WOFs, and idiots who can't control a car need speed limits.

I am (usually) aware of the prevailing speed limit of the road I am on. If I CHOOSE to disregard it, I am aware of the potential consequences (hopefully my judgement means that I only speed where the consequence is a ticket, and not killing myself) and I am prepared to take those consequences if I'm caught.

[tychver]

Having recently spent 3 months living in Germany I can tell you the Autobahn arguement is bollocks.

The drives are required by law to do around 20 hours practical tutition by an instructor before they're even allowed to drive with their parents. They also can't drive with anyone except their parents for a year.

Then you get onto the German equivilent to WOF. It's much, much stricter. They change their tires every 6 months too, with new tires each time.

The roads them selves have a fantastic surface and have a traffic and weather monitoring system that automatically ajusts the speed limit to conditions. Busy road? Sorry guys 100km/h. Weather? 130km/h. They also run about twice as much runoff into the on off ramps as we do in the UK or NZ to give people time to slow down from or speed up to warp.

Comparing the Autobahn system to NZ or even the UK is just asinine.

Oh, and on their straight single lane empty rural roads the speed limit is still 100km/h.

[FJRider]

I have been riding/ driving for over 20 years, and driven most of the roads in the country. The speed limits are there for a reason, most people out there don't know how to take lines on corners, handle cars that get out of control, understand what a wof is actually for, and don't even know how to use their indicators. Do you really want the limits raised? 20 years ago maybe, but now ?? Far too much traffic. Save it for the track.

It never ceases to amaze me, the number of people that, after driving/riding for 20+ years, feel confident at travelling at speeds over the posted speed limits. Is it just that the fact that they have survived travelling at speed, so often ... (regardless of the number of tickets they had issued to them) ... means they always will survive. AND ... their road skills are beyond reproach.

At least the young and stupid have an excuse...

[FJRider]

I have a radar detector, therefore I never speed. :2thumbsup

I don't either ... and I don't either ... (much)

[Dave Lobster]

I have been riding/ driving for over 20 years, and driven most of the roads in the country. The speed limits are there for a reason, most people out there don't know how to take lines on corners, handle cars that get out of control, understand what a wof is actually for, and don't even know how to use their indicators. Do you really want the limits raised?

You've not thought of having the drivers taught to a higher standard? I'd be more than happy to have the out of city speed limits double what they are now, so long as the other drivers on the road are capable. Currently, they are not.

[MaxCannon]

When my old man taught me how to drive (he started driving trucks in the Army at 16) we went everywhere and on any surface.
Once spent three hours on gravel roads with him getting me to gradually go quicker until the car started to break away so I learn how to correct properly.
He also once dragged me out in a thunderstorm so I could learn how to control the car while aquaplanning.

It's these sort of lessons that a majority of learners are missing out on.
Having an instinctive reaction to loss of traction has saved my bacon on a couple of occassions.

The stock standard govt road safety message of slowing down doesn't help drivers that don't know what to do in the first place.

[dpex]

What he says is true - about ten years ago almost nobody got pinged for doing 20kph or less over the speed limit - yet heaps of tickets still got handed out to those who still wanted to drive/ride at 121kph+:crazy:

Scum, can I ask for your candid opinion on the matter of the 'revenue-raising' issue. Obviously, don't answer if it will attract shit, but....

Is it true that speed detection systems/resulting tickets really is a revenue-gathering exercise, or do the authorities truly believe that the uniform speed limits actually save lives?

I'm curious because the various uniform speed-limits are frequently ridiculous.

There are many sections of road, here in the North Island upon which, even if I get so down and dirty as to be grinding metal off my pegs, I still could never exceed 70 (maybe) Ks. Yet I'm perfectly entitled to have a crack at 100Ks in those same corners.

Now take the wide-open motorway mentioned in my opening dissertation. There's not one corner on it which, at even 500Ks, could I get a peg on the ground. but I'd get turned over for doing 111Ks.

The comparisons suggest uniform speed limits don't make sense to me, unless revenue collection is, in fact, a part of the equation.

[Gummie]

Going out on a lim here but...

Imagine if for one day everybody in this country didnt exceed the speed limit.:oi-grr:

Where would the governments revenue collecting be then:whistle:

Pipe dreams are free i supose.:wacko:

[mctshirt]

So what are the NZ authorities telling us? Are they saying that NZ drivers are so far below the skill-levels of our European counterparts, or our American counterparts in states which have 'no' maximum limit?

You're kidding yourself if you think kiwi's are good drivers - be thankful we get 100kph (I can still remember when 80kph was the limit). Compared to the europeans kiwi drivers are plain awful. Combine that with roads that are just plain rough, poorly maintained, and power poles and fences right on the edge suggests to me adding more speed isn't the answer.


we need to get a hikoi together to make such a thing happen.

If you want to change the law get voted into parliament as an MP - get on to the appropriate committee or introduce a bill into parliament raising the speed limit (the "Everyone Can Drive As Fast As Dpex Believes He Can Safely Ride On A Public Road Act") and convince your colleagues to vote for it. The only way to change the system is from within ;)

[snuffles]

you have to be a pom........

have you not yet realised that NZ drivers are fucking idiots and should not really allowed to do 50 K let alone 140.

[Swoop]

and those who feel threatened always have the left lane.
You are joking, right?
Kiwi fuckwit drivers have NO idea how to keep left, under any circumstance.

If you want to variably adjust speed limits, the idea would be to send out a signal to the cars which electronically restricted it.
That technology is very close indeed. An informed chap keeps harking on about how soon that will be. His estimate is "around five years" from now.
This is involving NO human input. Speed and steering will be vehicle controlled...:crazy:

[cowpatz]

Speed kills? yeah right...make a good Tui's ad. If speed kills then every circuit rider should be dead by now. It is the decision making, or lack there of, that kills.
Just take a look at some of the muppets driving.....you wouldn't let half of them ride a push bike let alone drive a vehicle....some cant even read road signs! Our (meaning their) poor performance is the reason why we could never adopt things from overseas like a free left turn at a red light, higher speed limits and also why we have those fucking annoying no right turn red arrows whereby even though there is no oncoming traffic we still have to wait for a green.
The roading planners do their utmost best to contribute to the road toll too. How many crappy road surfaces, reverse camber corners, cheesecutter barriers, poorly sequenced traffic signals and massive road edge drainage ditches do we see? Or passing lanes that finish on the brow of a hill or going into a corner...brilliant.
They shamelessly promote the use of SH16 as the alternate route north from Auckland yet it does not have one passing lane from Kumeu through to Wellsford and despite it being well travelled by stock and horse trucks it only has about 5 or 6 places to pass safely from Helensville onwards.
Look at the money wasted on these ridiculous on ramp metering signals. Is someone getting a backhander for installing these? All they do is create a gap between the light and queue that still forms at the end of the ramp. The Waterview on ramp, Westbound at Pt Chev, is a stroke of shear genius. 3 lanes all with just 50 metres to merge into 1 before getting on to the motorway lane and all starting off at the same time! Surely there are much better ways to have spent that cash.
To top it all off (no pun intended) they now want to lower the drink drive limit. Why? It is not the person at, or just under, the limit that is causing the carnage. It is the recidivist moron who is many times over the limit; probably has been convicted numerous times and still has no license.
A limit will never replace or be a substitute for common sense.

[Swoop]

Look at the money wasted on these ridiculous on ramp metering signals.
Does anyone actually pay attention to these things? They are activated when the motorway is empty of traffic, yet the automaton cagers insist on stopping for a red light that serves no purpose.:ar15:

[SPman]

You just answered yourself.
Haven't seen a car suddenly swerve and slam into the motorway barrier without any reason, have you? Not even a blown tyres. Nothing.


Sure have!


(can I say he was an Asian driver...)

[Marmoot]

Sure have!


(can I say he was an Asian driver...)

Different one then. Mine was white.

[scumdog]

Speed kills? yeah right...make a good Tui's ad.

It's easier to say than "If you go fast enough and stop too quickly by hitting something you could die" though isn't it?:yawn:

[The Pastor]

Of course speed kills. This I know, for the gubbermint tells me so.
little ones to them belong? we are weak but they are strong?

[cowpatz]

It's easier to say than "If you go fast enough and stop too quickly by hitting something you could die" though isn't it?

Yes it is usually the hitting something that kills. The question is how it was hit and what lack of judgment lead to it.




There are many sections of road, here in the North Island upon which, even if I get so down and dirty as to be grinding metal off my pegs, I still could never exceed 70 (maybe) Ks. Yet I'm perfectly entitled to have a crack at 100Ks in those same corners.

Just because a section of road has a particular speed limit does not entitle anyone to automatically do that speed. It is a maximum permitted speed. Sure you might not be able to take it at that speed but perhaps certain sports cars could.

[dpex]

Yes it is usually the hitting something that kills. The question is how it was hit and what lack of judgment lead to it.




Just because a section of road has a particular speed limit does not entitle anyone to automatically do that speed. It is a maximum permitted speed. Sure you might not be able to take it at that speed but perhaps certain sports cars could.

You are quite wrong. It does in fact entitle one to travel at the maximum gazetted speed; that's why they post a maximum gazetted speed; Doh!

Back in the good old days, when folk were allowed a little discretion in a whole range of things, they had things noted as LSZ (Limited Speed Zones). The concept being, an LSZ zone was a warning to drivers that sometimes the area or road wasn't good for full-on speed....mostly due to weather conditions, schools in country areas, or small conclaves in a country village. These zones gave the cops the right to ping those drivers who weren't taking proper notice of the conditions.

In other words, it was during the days when personal responsibility still had some currency, as opposed to the modern world wherein anyone can claim lack of liability unless someone has pointed out specific rules; like, "Eating the plastic bag containing this dope could cause choking"!

The other day I was at a car-grooming place and noticed a 20 Litre container sitting to one side. Emblazoned in bright red letters were the words, "Do not drink the contents of this container. Poison!" It was acidic mag-wash!

I'm waiting for the day when the makers of Duct-Tape are forced to add the admonishment to their packaging, "Do not use this product to silence your child. It could cause suffocation. Do not use this product to immobilise criminals' you could be liable for unlawful detention."

The world's gone fucking mad with safety warnings.

The idea of LSZ zones being to advise drivers to either slow down or be a bit more watchful.....like, take a bit of personal responsibility.

I believe there is still one such zone still alive and well today, somewhere in the Far North.

The point I'm striving to make here is this. Some over our newer roads are so well designed and surfaced, that a far higher speed (certainly in the right hand lane) could be allowed in relative safety. Yet there are other roads, currently with a 100Kph limit which should be restricted to 50Kph.

[twinkle]

That technology is very close indeed. An informed chap keeps harking on about how soon that will be. His estimate is "around five years" from now.
This is involving NO human input. Speed and steering will be vehicle controlled...:crazy:

That would be quite cool in some ways. I could tell the car where I want to go and go and have a kip in the back, wake up when I arrive at the other end of the island.

[cowpatz]

You are quite wrong. It does in fact entitle one to travel at the maximum gazetted speed; that's why they post a maximum gazetted speed; Doh!

Try reading the road code:

Compulsory speed signs

A speed limit is the maximum legal speed that you can travel on the road under good conditions.

Signs showing the speed limit are displayed beside the road. These signs usually have a red border, which means that the sign is compulsory.

You may drive slower than the speed limit shown, but you must be considerate towards any vehicles behind you.

You must drive slower than the limit if:

* conditions make the speed limit shown unsafe