Some more ideas on growing the Nationals

[Shaun P]

Im undecided on the control tyre idea at the moment, but it is a big put off when certain racers get access/sponsorship to very cheap tyre deals when the rest of the punters have to pay double or more of the price and have very limited access to supply. At least it would put more people on a level field cost/supply wise.

[JayRacer37]

That would work for me. But I understand the trepidation from others who might already have tyre deals, or already have done a great deal of development for one of the producers.

We'd also want to have a rock solid agreement from the supplier that they would be discounted for racers, even if we had to show a MNZ license to get them.

There would certainly have to be a hell of an agreement with whichever supplier it was.

Tell ya what though, you would have to try pretty bloody hard to get another brands product advertised on or near my bikes :bleh:

[AndrewStroud]

Why not mate?

Makes sense to me. I'd hope they were Perelli, but if not I'm sure my sponsors would understand that the class wouldn't allow their tyres.

I'd hope it was Pirelli too Drew. I'm totally happy with the tyres and Allan's been great to me. He's a pretty generous man and is prepared to give in order to receive. Not saying other wholesalers aren't I'm sure Nationwide would be in as good a position as any to put forward a suitable proposal.

[JayRacer37]

Im undecided on the control tyre idea at the moment, but it is a big put off when certain racers get access/sponsorship to very cheap tyre deals when the rest of the punters have to pay double or more of the price and have very limited access to supply. At least it would put more people on a level field cost/supply wise.

You pay for the tyres on your road bike right? I pay retail for my road tyres too. I get cheaper racing/testing tyres because I do work for the company, and I have something to give back to them at the end of it. And I have a deal with the importer as they can use me to advertise that product. Anyone can get a deal with tyres...I think most importers are pretty quick to discount tyres for racing if you will put the sticker on your bike. But to get more than that...there has to be a return for them.

You are right, it would put everyone on a level playing feild price wise. But would it do that by taking the advantage away from the people who have it and work for it, and not giving anything back in return to all riders?

[Shaun P]

You pay for the tyres on your road bike right? I pay retail for my road tyres too. I get cheaper racing/testing tyres because I do work for the company, and I have something to give back to them at the end of it. And I have a deal with the importer as they can use me to advertise that product. Anyone can get a deal with tyres...I think most importers are pretty quick to discount tyres for racing if you will put the sticker on your bike. But to get more than that...there has to be a return for them.

You are right, it would put everyone on a level playing feild price wise. But would it do that by taking the advantage away from the people who have it and work for it, and not giving anything back in return to all riders?


Yep, like I said im undecided like anything it has pros and cons, it just makes it harder on the people coming up, especially those that havent cut their teeth and had support from a younger age.

[AndrewStroud]

Yep, like I said im undecided like anything it has pros and cons, it just makes it harder on the people coming up, especially those that havent cut their teeth and had support from a younger age.


Of coarse Shaun, It would be unwise to decide anything without knowing what is on offer.

As per my post on 'Control tyre poll' It's a little tricky to vote when we don't know what the deal is.
eg There maybe nothing offered worth considering or for some funny reason a NZ wholesaler may manage to get the mothership (ie Pirelli Italy, Dunlop UK, Michelin France ...etc) involved and keen on the idea.. then you don't know what could come of it. Whats say they could offer tyres at a price that is the same as they could be sold on for when used, effectively giving racers a tyre bill of $0. They can provide tyres that work really well and last for ages.....sponsor the class and provide prize money. ?????
Optimistic I know. But if you don't ask you don't know.
At present some riders in S/B can easily use 10 new soft compound tyres in a meeting if they chose to. It makes it hard for up and coming riders.
I suggested the idea because it could well benefit 90% of the field, - probably at the expense of us sponsored riders. However it could well be one of the factors that could turn the series around.
You can see it is not just a yes / no vote. The real question is, 'Should it be put up for tender'?

[SWERVE]

While im all for making tyres etc more affordable to all i dont agree with the one make tyre rule.
Making the "two sets per meeting" rule should sufficiantly cut costs and be within most serious competitors budgets.
Having a healthy competition between suppliers is a good thing IMHO. It allows riders the choice and different suppliers a bite of the cherry too.
I doubt whether the type of contigancy sponsership fund/prize money by a single supplier that you imply would be substantial enough to have the masses running.:chase:
Unless someone knows more!!!!!!!

[Drew]

Making the "two sets per meeting" rule should sufficiantly cut costs and be within most serious competitors budgets.


Two sets on a Superbike isn't enough. A thou will destroy a rear in a session if ya get the setup wrong, and in the pursuit of quicker lap times things get tried, that may have that wrong effect.

How about this, we rotate the supplier for control tyres? Perelli one year, Dunlop the next, (christ, it might mean mere mortals could actually afford to try them.) Continental after that, and so on, and so forth.

This could actually be good for tyre distributers, because there would be a lot more set up info floating around for each. People would be keener to run a certain brand, if they could get the exit grip they lack, as an example.

[Tony.OK]

Two sets on a Superbike isn't enough. A thou will destroy a rear in a session if ya get the setup wrong, and in the pursuit of quicker lap times things get tried, that may have that wrong effect.

How about this, we rotate the supplier for control tyres? Perelli one year, Dunlop the next, (christ, it might mean mere mortals could actually afford to try them.) Continental after that, and so on, and so forth.

This could actually be good for tyre distributers, because there would be a lot more set up info floating around for each. People would be keener to run a certain brand, if they could get the exit grip they lack, as an example.

I'd see that as being an extra expense Drew, having to retest everytime a new supplier was announced. Am totally happy to run DOT tyres though, not in agreement about a control tyre. While it may be good for some, it may not be for others as has been said already.
Is NZ big enough to support a one make rule? That would put serious pressure on the suppliers who miss out. And what happens if the price turns out to be more than someones already paying via a sponsor?

Would be a shame to have some suppliers pull out if they aren't selected as the control supplier.

[cowpoos]

Would be a shame to have some suppliers pull out if they aren't selected as the control supplier.

There are other classes...and they can try out tender the next time...I presume there would be a review at a regular interval.

I support the control tyre Idea.. levels the playing feild more...I know a few will loose out..but a few always loose out for the great good of anything.
tyre development argument...well...there are other riders and other countrys...[sorry Jay]...


To get a Idea of what people think about this idea I'll start a poll eh...

[cowpoos]

There are other classes...and they can try out tender the next time...I presume there would be a review at a regular interval.

I support the control tyre Idea.. levels the playing feild more...I know a few will loose out..but a few always loose out for the great good of anything.
tyre development argument...well...there are other riders and other countrys...[sorry Jay]...


To get a Idea of what people think about this idea I'll start a poll eh...
Poll posted here ----> click here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1129225285#post1129225285)

[Shaun P]

Of coarse Shaun, It would be unwise to decide anything without knowing what is on offer.

So true, im sure you will get alot of backing if you look to push some ideas though, if not from the established minorities..

[CHOPPA]

Control tyre is a great idea, the Oz Prod Superbike series has a limit to 2 control Dunlop 209gps and in 5 20 min sessions on a thou that was not set up at all they hardly wore as they are pretty hard but they were safe you just adjust your riding to suit.

A control tyre with a limit of 2 sets is clearly the way to cut costs. My budget last year was 80% tyres!!

[roadracingoldfart]

We came up with the idea of holding a separate North and South cup within the nationals where your points at each island counted to a championship result. Sketchy is actually a good representitive of this - he couldn't do South island this year so finished 5th in F3. With a NI/SI cup his seasons results would be F3 5th, NI cup 1st, SI Cup not participated. This gives the club guys more of an incentive to show up at the national rounds for their island and try to get a result within that. It's also something that bridges the gap between localised club meets and the whole national series.

Jay

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=93661 :bleh:

[JayRacer37]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=93661 :bleh:

Similar, but not the same. I don't advocate a one off event for a 'final' - I really hate that idea as we need more races across our champioonship, not less. With my idea the championships run as normal/now, but points are pulled out to make a North/South Is cup out of them. I also like the thought of Stroudys that says the the clubs make the National round count to club championship points, as this would (you would hope) encorage the club racers to come out.

[jellywrestler]

Control tyre is a great idea!!

Forget the control tyre, I was at the MNZ Road Race workshop this afternoon and this was not one of the outcomes.
There were a lot of interesting discussions put forward on all sorts of things, rather than me give you bits and peices keep an eye on the MNZ web site they will be on there in a few days.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Similar, but not the same. I don't advocate a one off event for a 'final' - I really hate that idea as we need more races across our champioonship, not less. With my idea the championships run as normal/now, but points are pulled out to make a North/South Is cup out of them. I also like the thought of Stroudys that says the the clubs make the National round count to club championship points, as this would (you would hope) encorage the club racers to come out.

I put forward the idea of the NI/SI Cup idea that you suggested in our MSN conversation at the road race workshop today, so we may see something of that (But also we may not) but it seemed that the powers that be certainly have taken the idea into account and may consider it.

I was suprised how civil the meeting was to be honest and some good ideas have been floated, just now to see if/when we will see action taken on them I suppose.

Cheers,

-Glen

[Petrolic]

Some great ideas, but what do I know. BUT for someone who will never be good enough to do nats heres my view. 1stYou want people interested in motercyle racing well good luck, my family will not watch unless they see very close racing or crash's and who of us hard core bikers don 't watch plays of the week and think any different. 2nd I see at club level young riders on not NEW bikes with stock engine suspension and well used rubber and still blow half the field away against others WHO HAVE fully raced up machines. My point, who else can see that potential. Try and tell Lorenzo that his wettyres would not last as long as they did. "TALENT"and feel. stroudies ideas I think is that Talent wins out and not Dollars spent or we will never create another teenage Rossi or Lorenzo bcos of the costs involved in this field. Stroudy! my boy put your signed poster on his bedroom door , thats what this sport is missing, instead of thinking about what benefits our instant race future lets think about younger even more talented riders that could BBB

[Drew]

Some great ideas, but what do I know. BUT for someone who will never be good enough to do nats heres my view.This attitude has a lot to do with the low numbers at the nats, if you've done a season at club level, you're safe enough to do the nats.
1stYou want people interested in motercyle racing well good luck, my family will not watch unless they see very close racing or crash's and who of us hard core bikers don 't watch plays of the week and think any different. 2nd I see at club level young riders on not NEW bikes with stock engine suspension and well used rubber and still blow half the field away against others WHO HAVE fully raced up machines. My point, who else can see that potential. Try and tell Lorenzo that his wettyres would not last as long as they did. "TALENT"and feel. stroudies ideas I think is that Talent wins out and not Dollars spent or we will never create another teenage Rossi or Lorenzo bcos of the costs involved in this field. Stroudy! my boy put your signed poster on his bedroom door , thats what this sport is missing, instead of thinking about what benefits our instant race future lets think about younger even more talented riders that could BBB

NO, tallent will not always win over dollars, particularly in Superbike.

A good example is Choppa this year at the Nats. He was riding incredibly well, and going insanely quick on his practically standard ZX10, but was beaten over all by guys he would out brake, corner faster, and gas it sooner than.

[k14]

I'd be very keen to hear how the discussion went at the AGM. Who led the road race workshop?

Does anyone have a rough date on when this stuff should be finalised. Being a shift worker I need a good 6 months notice to guarantee I can actually make the meetings. I think in past years we have been notified around June/July and that is 6 months plus, but if meetings are going to be as early as November and we only find out in July then it doesn't give the optimal/fair amount of time to weigh up what everyone is going to do.

[Rcktfsh]

some suggestions on promotion for next year,

Someone taking a more hands on role liasing with the media, organising riders for radio, breakfast tv, powerbuilt motorsport show, game of half a brain..oops mean two halves type shows which offer alot of potential exposure.

Free ticket giveaways to local radio station close to rounds, tv breakfast etc...

Ticket pre sales, nzv8's work in with bp so that fans can pre buy at a discount meeting tickets from bp therefore getting their commitment. This i'm sure would work well for us espcially if we can get a partner such as BP/Shell/McDonalds all of whom have supported motorsport in the past. With the manufacturers on board franchaises would be a logical outlet also, rather than just sending out a poster to the bike shops why not try and get them actively onboard?

Offering promotions to shows like TV0ne brekky whereby the winner gets strapped onto the back of a GSXR1000 and taken for a few laps in the lunch break by stroudy for example?

I really like the idea of double points for tt and gp races, the enermous history of these races is I don't feel recognised in the current format where they have just become another race. Double points would differentaite them and also with the TT race being last on the calender it may help to keep the championship alive until the last race.

[AndrewStroud]

some suggestions on promotion for next year,

Someone taking a more hands on role liasing with the media, organising riders for radio, breakfast tv, powerbuilt motorsport show, game of half a brain..oops mean two halves type shows which offer alot of potential exposure.

Free ticket giveaways to local radio station close to rounds, tv breakfast etc...

Ticket pre sales, nzv8's work in with bp so that fans can pre buy at a discount meeting tickets from bp therefore getting their commitment. This i'm sure would work well for us espcially if we can get a partner such as BP/Shell/McDonalds all of whom have supported motorsport in the past. With the manufacturers on board franchaises would be a logical outlet also, rather than just sending out a poster to the bike shops why not try and get them actively onboard?

Offering promotions to shows like TV0ne brekky whereby the winner gets strapped onto the back of a GSXR1000 and taken for a few laps in the lunch break by stroudy for example?

I really like the idea of double points for tt and gp races, the enermous history of these races is I don't feel recognised in the current format where they have just become another race. Double points would differentaite them and also with the TT race being last on the calender it may help to keep the championship alive until the last race.

All Good. Well done, Now we just need that someone???????

[Rcktfsh]

All Good. Well done, Now we just need that someone???????

Richard Driver?

[cowpoos]

All Good. Well done, Now we just need that someone???????
someone?....or a small team?

[AndrewStroud]

Richard Driver?

Now that's a great thought. Be awesome if he would do it. Maybe another capable person or two would put there hands up to do the donkey work under...??? Richards?? instruction

[Shaun]

Now that's a great thought. Be awesome if he would do it. Maybe another capable person or two would put there hands up to do the donkey work under...??? Richards?? instruction


Log me down as a helper for who ever takes this role on Andrew

I will do what I can

[Drew]

Richard Driver?


Now that's a great thought. Be awesome if he would do it. Maybe another capable person or two would put there hands up to do the donkey work under...??? Richards?? instruction

Who's Richard Driver? Not meaning to be rude, it's just not a name I recognise. Not that it matters if I know of him I guess.

I only ask, because these roles we would like to create, need to be filled with individuals who have a track record for finishing what they start.

[Shaun Harris]

Who's Richard Driver? Not meaning to be rude, it's just not a name I recognise. Not that it matters if I know of him I guess.

I only ask, because these roles we would like to create, need to be filled with individuals who have a track record for finishing what they start.




X Radio with pictures man

Morning TV show

Club day/track day rider

Dam good bloke, with Exellent connections in the media network


BUT IS HE TO BUSY TO GIVE US HIS TIME?

Would be a top bloke for the roll

[Drew]

There is a Husband and wife combo that springs to mind, as two EXTREEMLY dedicated people, to this sport of ours.

I've got a number to try, I'll them to have a look at this thread and hope they raise a hand.

[Marknz]

X Radio with pictures man

Morning TV show

Club day/track day rider

Dam good bloke, with Exellent connections in the media network


BUT IS HE TO BUSY TO GIVE US HIS TIME?

Would be a top bloke for the roll

and he raced at Taupo in the Clubmans A class, very well prepared Triumph 675 #113.

[Shaun Harris]

There is a Husband and wife combo that springs to mind, as two EXTREEMLY dedicated people, to this sport of ours.

I've got a number to try, I'll them to have a look at this thread and hope they raise a hand.



Go to it Drew, good on ya

[Tony.OK]

Cmon Drew, I know you ain't that young.........................maybe if someone said "Dick Driver & Karen Hayes from Radio with Pictures"


or maybe I'm gettin bloody old.............................:doh:

[Shaun]

Cmon Drew, I know you ain't that young.........................maybe if someone said "Dick Driver & Karen Hayes from Radio with Pictures"


or maybe I'm gettin bloody old.............................:doh:



Relax dude 15-12-63, Now that IS getting old

[Drew]

Relax dude 15-12-63, Now that IS getting oldYou old bastard! LOL


Cmon Drew, I know you ain't that young.........................maybe if someone said "Dick Driver & Karen Hayes from Radio with Pictures"


or maybe I'm gettin bloody old.............................:doh:Karen Hayes I know (of that is, not personally), but even after I looked Dick Driver up, I still didn't recognise him.

[Brian d marge]

nuthin wrong with karen gaba gaba heye ...

but As to this growing the sport , heres an Idea ( and someone else will do it while others argure )

moto gp the 250 class is going 4 stroke 600 soon ( I think ) , So,,,, why not make , 600 unlimited our premier class ( as in as per motogp rules ) and allow , stock and super stock 600 to race in the same class based on the 1.07% wildcard rule , ie if u are within 1.07% of the top time you are in .

This opens up the customer base for single product , to the world stage .. bigger markets more money ?


So I could buy a CBR 600 and develop it to within an inch of its life, ( trickle down theory here ) and get quite a number of years racing out of it ..... and if triumph does a compeditive 600 I get bears as well! !!!!!

Stephen

I might do that meself ! ,,,its such a good idea!

[Drew]

nuthin wrong with karen gaba gaba heye ...

but As to this growing the sport , heres an Idea ( and someone else will do it while others argure )

moto gp the 250 class is going 4 stroke 600 soon ( I think ) , So,,,, why not make , 600 unlimited our premier class ( as in as per motogp rules ) and allow , stock and super stock 600 to race in the same class based on the 1.07% wildcard rule , ie if u are within 1.07% of the top time you are in .

This opens up the customer base for single product , to the world stage .. bigger markets more money ?


So I could buy a CBR 600 and develop it to within an inch of its life, ( trickle down theory here ) and get quite a number of years racing out of it ..... and if triumph does a compeditive 600 I get bears as well! !!!!!

Stephen

I might do that meself ! ,,,its such a good idea!

The 600cc motoGP is pretty much a go, but the bikes will still be, grand prix bikes. Not at all based on road bikes. From what I've read at least.

[JayRacer37]

The 600cc motoGP is pretty much a go, but the bikes will still be, grand prix bikes. Not at all based on road bikes. From what I've read at least.

Absolutly. MotoGP has to be Prototype. Apparently World SBK is on the verge of throwing a fit about the proposed MotoGP2 class as they are talking about using production motors...a big no-no is SBK's book as they are the production racing world series.

[Brian d marge]

Absolutly. MotoGP has to be Prototype. Apparently World SBK is on the verge of throwing a fit about the proposed MotoGP2 class as they are talking about using production motors...a big no-no is SBK's book as they are the production racing world series.

i give you....

tadaaaaa http://www.blatawcm.com/

looks ok to me !

Stephen

whoops its had a gp motor , still ..just change back to SBK the rest of the parts would still be applicable to motogp 250

[Kiwi Graham]

Absolutly. MotoGP has to be Prototype. Apparently World SBK is on the verge of throwing a fit about the proposed MotoGP2 class as they are talking about using production motors...a big no-no is SBK's book as they are the production racing world series.

Apparently there might be some weird rule that can order teams to sell their engine to a competitor for $20k if requested 1 hr after a race?? and ECU's to be regulated by the organisers and held by them between races??

[Shaun]

Log me down as a helper for who ever takes this role on Andrew

I will do what I can



EDITED, I want to proof read the rules for Road Racing, so all the rules are in simple english, NO GREY AREA's!!!

[Maido]

^^ haha yes! I concur!

[steveyb]

Apparently there might be some weird rule that can order teams to sell their engine to a competitor for $20k if requested 1 hr after a race?? and ECU's to be regulated by the organisers and held by them between races??

Yep, one of the proposed rules is a 'Claiming Rule'.
This is not so uncommon in the USA, not sure if it is ever used though.
The rule claims to keep costs of bikes down as it means that after any race/meeting you can go up to any team with your money (an amount determined at the start of the season), give it to them and take the bike away.

A control ECU is also mooted, along wth the control engine.

Makes it all sound productiony to me, production race bikes, as opposed to production road bikes. Ah well, we'll see.

[wharfy]

Yep, one of the proposed rules is a 'Claiming Rule'.
This is not so uncommon in the USA, not sure if it is ever used though.
The rule claims to keep costs of bikes down as it means that after any race/meeting you can go up to any team with your money (an amount determined at the start of the season), give it to them and take the bike away.

A control ECU is also mooted, along wth the control engine.

Makes it all sound productiony to me, production race bikes, as opposed to production road bikes. Ah well, we'll see.

I quite like the idea of production race bikes, Isn't that essentially what most MX bikes are in NZ ? MX is doing pretty damn well by comparison to road racing in NZ.
If they made a "soft" version for the great unwashed that was cheaper to buy and easier to maintain ?

[Brian d marge]

Yep, one of the proposed rules is a 'Claiming Rule'.
This is not so uncommon in the USA, not sure if it is ever used though.
The rule claims to keep costs of bikes down as it means that after any race/meeting you can go up to any team with your money (an amount determined at the start of the season), give it to them and take the bike away.
.

Didnt it come from Swedish banger racing. I saw a top gear program on it once

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

I quite like the idea of production race bikes, Isn't that essentially what most MX bikes are in NZ ? MX is doing pretty damn well by comparison to road racing in NZ.
If they made a "soft" version for the great unwashed that was cheaper to buy and easier to maintain ?

Not neccessarly so, nothing is what it seems,

National Junior 125 cc MX champion Cam Dillon CR125. Ported cylinder and head, V-Force block, Pro Circuit pipe and muffler. Vortex ignition.Tag handlebars. Ohlins custom built TTX44 and reworked front forks. Etc etc.

National Senior 125cc MX champion Damien King YZ125. Almost identical menu of aftermarket bits to Cams bike with the addition of custom built Ohlins TTX gas front fork cartridges.

National open class ( 450cc ) MX champion Damien King. YZ450F Upspec'd motor with Pro Circuit pipe / muffler. Aftermarket handlebars hubs, levers etc. Vortex ignition. Ohlins TTX44 rear and Ohlins TTX gas cartridge front.

Many top runners were using our beloved Swedish suspension components, bought and paid for.

Junior Nationals

150cc class CRF150 Ist place Campbell King. Pro circuit motor internals and exhaust. Reworked fork internals and Ohlins rear shock.

250cc CRF250 1st place Cam Dillon. CRF250 Pro Circuit motor upgrade and exhaust system. Vortex ignition. Aftermarket this and that. Pro Circuit suspension but following testing has switched to Ohlins on grounds of its working better on our tracks.

I have personally worked in MX since the mid 80s and in that time have prepped, ported, reworked and rekitted motors and suspension for many riders including many National MX champions. Including; Shayne King, Damien King, Daryl King, Ben Townley, Andrew Hardisty, Daryl Hurley, Michael Cotter, etc etc. Hardly anyone in the national level classes ride stock production bikes, and that goes back decades.
Motors get upspec'd but above all the suspension gets reworked ( Pro Circuit, Race Tech, RG3 etc ) or replaced. In reality these bikes are more highly modified than our sports production road race bikes.

[SWERVE]

Yeh we think that road racing is exspensive.:shit:
The money some of these guys (and some of the club riders) throw at MX is HUGE:shit::shit:
And if you think you can buy a latest spec bike of the shop floor..race it and be up there... think again...pass me the chq book.:shit::shit::shit:
But hey just like our racing the same names (those who have it ) keep cropping up in the winners list. :laugh:

[Robert Taylor]

Yeh we think that road racing is exspensive.:shit:
The money some of these guys (and some of the club riders) throw at MX is HUGE:shit::shit:
And if you think you can buy a latest spec bike of the shop floor..race it and be up there... think again...pass me the chq book.:shit::shit::shit:
But hey just like our racing the same names (those who have it ) keep cropping up in the winners list. :laugh:

Its not always so but perhaps those with the most talent and promise are also those most likely to recieve extra support, be it money or many hours of unpaid work. Often both.
I dont knock people for having lots of money as long as theyve worked hard for it and carry people along with them. Carrying people along with them happens a lot in our sport and all others. It provides people with an income and the ability to employ. Without profit there is less help for people.

[wharfy]

I have personally worked in MX since the mid 80s and in that time have prepped, ported, reworked and rekitted motors and suspension for many riders including many National MX champions. Including; Shayne King, Damien King, Daryl King, Ben Townley, Andrew Hardisty, Daryl Hurley, Michael Cotter, etc etc. Hardly anyone in the national level classes ride stock production bikes, and that goes back decades.
Motors get upspec'd but above all the suspension gets reworked ( Pro Circuit, Race Tech, RG3 etc ) or replaced. In reality these bikes are more highly modified than our sports production road race bikes.


Yeh we think that road racing is exspensive.:shit:
The money some of these guys (and some of the club riders) throw at MX is HUGE:shit::shit:
And if you think you can buy a latest spec bike of the shop floor..race it and be up there... think again...pass me the chq book.:shit::shit::shit:
But hey just like our racing the same names (those who have it ) keep cropping up in the winners list. :laugh:

Oh well, never mind, it would still be nice to be able to buy the current equivalent of a TZ250/350/750 - anybody know how much they cost in their day ? I can remember when grids were full of them.

[GSVR]

Its not always so but perhaps those with the most talent and promise are also those most likely to recieve extra support, be it money or many hours of unpaid work. Often both.
I dont knock people for having lots of money as long as theyve worked hard for it and carry people along with them. Carrying people along with them happens a lot in our sport and all others. It provides people with an income and the ability to employ. Without profit there is less help for people.

Perhaps its time for an Open/F1 class again. This may inspire another Britten or Buckley to build a very cool bike. Then there would be a search for a suitable young rider to pilot it like a Stroud ,Briggs, Poole, or Harris. Bikes like that can really get the attention of the public and get them along to the track.

As you say time moves on. But I still like the idea of an open class with little in the way of restriction like MGP. But I'm also just as passionate about seeing a very standard class with totally unmodified bikes that would show off raw talent.

[SWERVE]

Dont get me wrong Robert. I dont care how much money they have or spend...they are racers that makes it ok in my book.:Punk:
Although maybe not very well put. my point is that in this game you do have to spend money.........lots of it........ ITS AN EXSPENSIVE SPORT. If ye want to be "up there":shit:
I Totally agree with you they do have talent....lots of it. They have spent money ...lots of it. And they have spent untold hours behind the scenes working to get them where they are now.:Punk:
I used to be crew for an international drag bike team in the UK. We won several champs and set records too............. Believe you me i know the EFFORT that is involved. :shit:
Now currently trying to build a road race team/ support network to take my son on to racing career. Every waking hour that im not a work (and some that i am) is spent "behind the scenes".watch this space:Punk:
OS Racing

[AndrewStroud]

I believe they are looking at these types of changes.
I like the idea of a muffler, rear spring, fork oil and a fairing.:niceone:
Someone could race a bike for a year then sell it as a stock bike without loosing a heap of money on cams, motor work, shocks, etc.
The winter series allows some stock bikes to get on to the track, but you wont see them at the nationals unless the rules are changed to make them competive.
I might even be tempted to give the 600 class ago.:niceone:

I just spoke to staff at Motorcycling Australia and they are now looking at future rules. They also have lower numbers for Superbike this season.
It is proposed that their current 1000 Superstock class rules become the new rules for Superbike. Similarly for the 600 class.

Some of proposal and rules below;
The intention of revising the technical rules for the 4 most popular production based classes – Superbike, Supersport, Superstock 600 and Superstock 1000, is to cut the costs to competitors to build, maintain and repair these machines under the current economic climate by bring their specification back closer to the production base they have come from, while also allowing a more level playing field for all competitors who have previously been disadvantaged by the larger teams with more funding and technical support.
Essentially each class has stepped back a category:
Ie: what was Superstock 1000 in 2009 will become Superbike in 2010.
What was Superstock 600 in 2009 will become Supersport, and what was Production in 2009 will become Superstock (600 and 1000 categories) in 2010.

SPECIFIC PRODUCTION BASED ROAD RACING CLASSES FOR 2010 GCR’S

SUPERSTOCK 600 and SUPERSTOCK 1000
Eligible to C+ D grade riders
Subject to the required and permitted
alterations set out below and as covered in the general road racing section,
Superstock 600 machines must:
e) For 2 cylinder engines, have an engine
capacity of no more than 750cc,
f) For 3 cylinder engines, have an engine
capacity of no more than 675cc,
g) For 4 cylinder engines, have an engine
capacity of no more than 600cc,
15.8.0.4 To be permitted to compete, a machine,
without rider, empty of fuel, but with all
other fluids at optimum levels, must
weigh no less than:
a) 162kg for 4 cylinder,
b) 162kg for 3 cylinder,
c) 170kg for 2 cylinder.
Subject to the required and permitted
alterations set out below and as covered in the general road racing section,
Superstock 1000 machines must:
e) For 2 and 3 cylinder engines, have
an engine capacity of no more than
1200cc,
g) For 4 cylinder engines, have an engine capacity of no more than 1000cc
i) To be permitted to compete, a
machine, without rider, empty of
fuel, but with all other fluids at
optimum levels, must weigh no less than:
i) 165kg for all 4 cylinder
machines
ii) 170kg for all 2 and 3
cylinder machines

A 1% tolerance at post race control will be allowed.

SUPERSPORT
Eligible to A + B grade riders
Subject to the required and permitted
alterations set out below and as covered in the general road racing section
Supersport machines must:
e) For 2 cylinder engines, have an engine
capacity of no more than 750cc,
f) For 3 cylinder engines, have an engine
capacity of no more than 675cc,
g) For 4 cylinder engines, have an engine
capacity of no more than 600cc,
15.8.0.4 To be permitted to compete, a machine,
without rider, empty of fuel, but with all
other fluids at optimum levels, must weigh no less than:
a) 162kg for 4 cylinder,
b) 162kg for 3 cylinder,
c) 170kg for 2 cylinder.
A 1% tolerance at post race control will be allowed.
The following may be replaced or modified:
j) Spark plug leads and cap,
l) Brake hoses,
m) The muffler and tail connector pipe at the bolt-on or slip-on flange joints
only, the original header pipes must remain as supplied by the manufacturer,
titanium and carbon fibre only allowed as muffler bodies, muffler end caps or mounting brackets.
n) Front and rear suspension springs and internal components, but
external appearance must remain unchanged except for fork top caps.
o) Handlebars, but replacements must be mounted in the original position
on the fork assembly
p) Footrests and foot controls, but the replacements must be mounted at
the original mounting points, and
q) Air filter element,
The following may be removed:
c) Pollution air injection control systems

15.8.0.8 The following may be added:
a) Steering damper,
b) Ride height adjuster, providing there
is no modification or alteration to
frame or rear suspension unit.
c) MA approved fuel metering devices that plug into the original electrical connectors with no modification to the wiring harness. Std OEM ECU must be retained and operative,


SUPERBIKE
Eligible to A + B grade riders
Subject to the required and permitted
alterations set out below and as covered in the general road racing section,
Superbike machines must:
e) For 2 and 3 cylinder engines, have an engine capacity of no more than 1200cc,
g) For 4 cylinder engines, have an engine capacity of no more than 1000cc
i) To be permitted to compete, a machine, without rider, empty of
fuel, but with all other fluids at optimum levels, must weigh no less than:
i) 165kg for all 4 cylinder machines
ii) 170kg for all 2 and 3 cylinder machines
A 1% tolerance at post race control will be allowed off.
The following may be removed:
b) Chain guard,
c) Pollution air injection control systems
d) Rear fender,
The following may be added:
b) Ride height adjuster, providing there is no modification or
alteration to the frame or rear suspension control unit,
d) MA approved fuel metering
devices that plug into the original electrical connectors with no modification to the wiring
harness. Std OEM ECU must be retained and operative,
15.9.0.8 The following may be replaced
with parts not manufactured by the manufacturer of the machine:
a) Brake hoses,
d) Spark plug leads and cap,
f) Exhaust system and mounting brackets, titanium and carbon fibre only allowed as muffler bodies, muffler end caps or mounting brackets. b23
g) Rear suspension damping units and springs,
h) Front suspension, springs and internal damping parts, including
fork top caps may be modified or replaced, but the external
appearance of the forks must not be changed,
i) Clutch springs,
j) Air filters,
k) Fasteners for fitting external components where the
manufacturer has no specific torque setting, or, it is less than 10nm,
l) Handlebars, but replacements must be mounted at the original
mounting points,
m) Footrests and foot controls, but the replacements must be
mounted at the original mounting points

[Tony.OK]

I just spoke to staff at Motorcycling Australia and they are now looking at future rules. They also have lower numbers for Superbike this season.
It is proposed that their current 1000 Superstock class rules become the new rules for Superbike. Similarly for the 600 class.



Wow.........thats a big move by Auz M/cycling.
That'd pretty much make an ex SBK/SSK bike fairly worthless, only being eligable for club racing.
Thats evolution in racing I guess though.

[Marknz]

Wow.........thats a big move by Auz M/cycling.
That'd pretty much make an ex SBK/SSK bike fairly worthless, only being eligable for club racing.
Thats evolution in racing I guess though.

Yup, and a sign of the financial times we're now in.

Makes Choppa look pretty damn smart now doesn't it.

[Shaun P]

Good info! But I would say its going to be met with some fairly heavy resistance from the factory teams, considering where their curret spec is..

[Drew]

Good info! But I would say its going to be met with some fairly heavy resistance from the factory teams, considering where their curret spec is..

Especially considering they all just built '09 models, that would have still been competitive next year. Except the Kawasaki whoch might be due an upgrade, but when did the front guys last ride those? Anthony Gobert perhaps?

[cowpoos]

Good info! But I would say its going to be met with some fairly heavy resistance from the factory teams, considering where their curret spec is..
everyones hurting though...even them....but!!! your right...they will want to keep a compeditive advantage over privateers. and they still will some how...may just have to think up how! :)


I just spoke to staff at Motorcycling Australia

Andrew...have you been talking to MNZ/Paul pav about these ideas? I know you get on well with Paul...and am sure you guys would have disscussed things...do you know how they are seeing things? do we need to be emailing them..reinforcing some of the better ideas that have been established online?

[Marknz]

everyones hurting though...even them....but!!! your right...they will want to keep a compeditive advantage over privateers. and they still will some how...may just have to think up how! :)


Maybe they just deal with it by hiring tracks and spending lots more time and money testing testing testing till they have the advantage?

[cowpoos]

Maybe they just deal with it by hiring tracks and spending lots more time and money testing testing testing till they have the advantage?
meh...maybe they make sure they have the fastest riders...that may help :)

[Rcktfsh]

meh...maybe they make sure they have the fastest riders...that may help :)

now now poos everyone knows factory riders are only fast cause of their factory bikes not their talents, pretty much every privateer will tell you that.

[cowpoos]

now now poos everyone knows factory riders are only fast cause of their factory bikes not their talents, pretty much every privateer will tell you that.
haha...I thought it would take a bit longer for someone to get my tounge in cheek remark!

[Rcktfsh]

you appear to have swallowed a t whilst ounging your cheek.

[cowpoos]

you appear to have swallowed a t whilst ounging your cheek.
that was probably funnier before I edited my post! :)

[AndrewStroud]

Andrew...have you been talking to MNZ/Paul pav about these ideas? I know you get on well with Paul...and am sure you guys would have disscussed things...do you know how they are seeing things? do we need to be emailing them..reinforcing some of the better ideas that have been established online?

I e-mailed the first post of this thread to him and also to the RR comissioner before the AGM. Pav thinks along similar lines anyway. We could though highlight some of the better ideas and forward them on - maybe when they have a road race comissioner and another N.I. Road Race board member.

[Robert Taylor]

Yup, and a sign of the financial times we're now in.

Makes Choppa look pretty damn smart now doesn't it.

Its convenient to use ''the recession'' as a weapon to justify lowering costs ( and there is justification to lower costs but not to 3rd world status)
Recessions dont last forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robert Taylor]

I e-mailed the first post of this thread to him and also to the RR comissioner before the AGM. Pav thinks along similar lines anyway. We could though highlight some of the better ideas and forward them on - maybe when they have a road race comissioner and another N.I. Road Race board member.

Paul Pavletich is not MNZ, he is in an administrative position that is only a part of MNZ!!!!! Not everyone within the MNZ umbrella shares his views of depriving people of choice.

[Drew]

Paul Pavletich is not MNZ, he is in an administrative position that is only a part of MNZ!!!!! Not everyone within the MNZ umbrella shares his views of depriving people of choice.

I thought he'd stepped down, effective the recent AGM.

I'm confused:blink:

[codgyoleracer]

Yeah , went along to the road race workshop / AGM, there was strong support for moving toward production based spec machines it seems about a 70/30 show of hands.
Glen

[GSVR]

Paul Pavletich is not MNZ, he is in an administrative position that is only a part of MNZ!!!!! Not everyone within the MNZ umbrella shares his views of depriving people of choice.

He's in a position where you can't please everyone! Just like in F1 where theres a dispute at the moment over how much top teams spend.

I think what PP is promoting is pretty much inline with what every other motorsport organisation is doing worldwide. He's acting in the best interests of the sport. Of course there will be opposition but the motivation for this opposition is questionable.

As for depriving people of choice it probably opens up more choices than it deprives! So you missed the word "some" before peoples.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah , went along to the road race workshop / AGM, there was strong support for moving toward production based spec machines it seems about a 70/30 show of hands.
Glen

I was going to attend but was unable to do so due to family illness. It sounds as if there was a lack of detailed information in some areas and I find it a STUNNING HYPOCRISY that one person invited ( installed? ) to attend and push the stock agenda spent most of his career overseas on works level suspension. And his only memories of RACING on stock suspension are at a time when the machines didnt challenge their suspension anywhere near as much.
There is room to fine tune the rules for lower costs, certainly. But recessions dont last forever and its going to be easy to over-react.
And while everyone is entitled to a voice the decisions need to be predominantly made by people with the most experience and accumulated knowledge. And not hijacked by those with rather less experience.

If there are people that want to race on stock / modified stock suspension let them do so! But dont deprive others of reasonable choices.
If it goes this way its almost a certainty that at least one of the major distributors will pull out and do their own thing, then the Nationals truly will be a club series and rather ''hollow''.

[Shaun]

I thought he'd stepped down, effective the recent AGM.


I'm confused:blink:


No, just on drugs again:scooter: Trevor heaphy ran away

[Billy]

I thought he'd stepped down, effective the recent AGM.


I'm confused:blink:

Nope,You probably mean Paul Stewart(roadrace comissioner)

[Deano]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but couldn't an option be to run an SBK class (as the rules stand now), in addition to Superstock 1000cc class on the track at the same time ? Like F3 and Pro Twins ?

Best of both worlds ?

[Tony.OK]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but couldn't an option be to run an SBK class (as the rules stand now), in addition to Superstock 1000cc class on the track at the same time ? Like F3 and Pro Twins ?

Best of both worlds ?

Thats the plan for this year mate...........and then for next year the SBK rules will change but still be a higher class than S/stock, but all running together.:yes:

[Deano]

Thats the plan for this year mate...........and then for next year the SBK rules will change but still be a higher class than S/stock, but all running together.:yes:

Sorry I should have read more - while I'm on a roll, another dumb question then.

Why change the rules for SBK next year if there is going to be a Superstock Class ?

Will the bikes with cams need to be detuned ?

[Tony.OK]

Sorry I should have read more - while I'm on a roll, another dumb question then.

Why change the rules for SBK next year if there is going to be a Superstock Class ?

Will the bikes with cams need to be detuned ?
Theres still a SBk and Stock class next year at the moment, still enough rules to allow a faster bike to be made mate.
It was going to be changed this year, but alot of people have just brought SBK spec'd machines and it would've been a bit unfair to say they're not eligable so they are fazing them out over this/next year.

Yeah detune is bang on bro.................have a look on mnz for the proposed changes.......you'll see them there somewhere.

[Robert Taylor]

Theres still a SBk and Stock class next year at the moment, still enough rules to allow a faster bike to be made mate.
It was going to be changed this year, but alot of people have just brought SBK spec'd machines and it would've been a bit unfair to say they're not eligable so they are fazing them out over this/next year.

Yeah detune is bang on bro.................have a look on mnz for the proposed changes.......you'll see them there somewhere.

Phasing them out is not set in concrete!

[codgyoleracer]

The privateer class idea is still pretty sound, where machines are actually pretty much a similar spec , but the riders run different colour boards & collect privateer points & supersport/sbk points. Sort of like a privateers cup (a race within a race)
Glen

[roogazza]

Maybe it's not such a bad idea changing rules at this time.
There's only a couple (well 5 at most) in a bunch of 9 that have bought bikes.
The top 4 are dealer backed, are they not ? In the long run superstock makes sense. Gaz.

[CHOPPA]

Maybe it's not such a bad idea changing rules at this time.
There's only a couple (well 5 at most) in a bunch of 9 that have bought bikes.
The top 4 are dealer backed, are they not ? In the long run superstock makes sense. Gaz.

Id have to agree! To set a bike up to those specs would be no more then 30k for new bits and far cheaper for s/h, I actually set a bike up to that spec in oz for only 10k and its quite competitive for the class.

[Shaun]

Maybe it's not such a bad idea changing rules at this time.
There's only a couple (well 5 at most) in a bunch of 9 that have bought bikes.
The top 4 are dealer backed, are they not ? In the long run superstock makes sense. Gaz.




Changing the rules at this stage for the NEXT champs is NOT possible nor positive BUT, including the new class rules is a good idea I feel, but I am starting to think that the TRY (3 round) series, is about to take over as the main best race series in NZ?

F1 and F2 fules of the old days, woo hoo, get ya bikes and grinders and drills out crew:niceone: WE are KIWI's Who CAN do it!

[Shaun]

Id have to agree! To set a bike up to those specs would be no more then 30k for new bits and far cheaper for s/h, I actually set a bike up to that spec in oz for only 10k and its quite competitive for the class.


You guys really do not know who has bought what, ie, how many bikes have I bought and at what spec have I started building them to?

NOT ATTACKING

This place is not the whole world for all racers remember, fantastic as it is, thanks KB

[DEATH_INC.]

I love the idea of the aussie new rules. I had a similar discussion with someone the other day. It will make it way more affordable to be competitive. cool.
Btw, Robert, we can always switch back to the 'real' superbikes when the economic climate gets better.....

[Robert Taylor]

I love the idea of the aussie new rules. I had a similar discussion with someone the other day. It will make it way more affordable to be competitive. cool.
Btw, Robert, we can always switch back to the 'real' superbikes when the economic climate gets better.....

I have spoken to Phil Tainton in Australia re the suspension component of those proposals. Phil is very close to what is going on and says its unlikely that it will go through.

More affordable to be competitive? I wouldnt count on that for one moment, the gap between the fastest and the slowest will actually increase and the cost of maintaining shock absorbers will increase.

[Aragorn]

was a very good idea of andrews i myself would love to have the rules in nz the same as aus so when i get my bike here in oz i can come back to nz with my bike instead of having to get one there also will be good to see how things go over there in the homeland, looks like people are starting to take notice at how things have been going over there keep it up guys

[oyster]

Andrew, was a trick question? After 3 months, 333 replies and 8107 views did anyone come up with the right answer? Is it hidden on page 87 of the August Kiwi Rider? Was anyone even remotely close to that?

[SWERVE]

Oh Oyster................you are at it again.:whistle:
BUT OH SO TRUE:woohoo::woohoo: