Next BIG Protest with StoneY and the Unions

[StoneY]

Too much influence from the AA has made them like that! I still think they (AA) are the real target for us to attack!

Good luck with your foot, makes me wish I was a Physiotherapist!

Mom I feel for ya your a trooper, and such injuries suck ass big time
Old your on a good one there, my old favourite red rep flame P.Dath has been doing marvelous work with the AA

He is on the verge of getting the pricks to support pay as you go through tireless and largley unrecognised efforts

That man deserves a Tui (maybe even a Blonde!)

Recover soon Anne we need troopers like you

[MSTRS:Me]

We went down to Welly in November, we told Smitty that the raising of the ACC levies on bikes was BULLSHIT!. That was one bit. Only a small part of the changes ACC is gonna have done to it. And it worked!

Just playing Devil's Advocate here...but did it work? The amount was dropped, but is still unpalatably higher than other forms of private transport. And the unwarranted cc split stayed in. Other than a 'nod' to the levy amount, not a single thing we said was listened to.

[kevie]

a couple pics I took of the protest on 16th as well.


While the numbers by the union(s) wasnt great the numbr of bikers was pretty good and a good day had and the message .... "we will be back" reinforced to the politicians

[Conquiztador]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here...but did it work? The amount was dropped, but is still unpalatably higher than other forms of private transport. And the unwarranted cc split stayed in. Other than a 'nod' to the levy amount, not a single thing we said was listened to.

I will refrace my point: I know that we are still charged a higher levy, I know that what we are now to pay most probably is what they were looking for to starters anyhow, but the November Bikeoi made a difference. We stood up, we made our point, and suddenly NZ Bikers are a group of ppl that are a force that needs to be considered when making decisions.

So I will parrot my self here: Lets take a new issue. One from the bunch of issues that we do not agree on and lets do it again. A single issue that we know that bikers are pissed off with and will all agree on. (I have said this umphteen times before, but feel I need to state it again: You will NEVER get bikers to agree on the whole "save our ACC" issue. many bikers want it privatised, many want it returned to how it was supposed to be etc. That is political, and even if we hear that this is political, for many bikers it is only re government bullkshit that we do not agree on. And yes, I realise that that is politics. But very few of us want to be politicaly active).

It has to be focused, it has to be simple, it has to be a "one issue" agenda.

Here a few:
- CC split
- STILL high levies!
- Loosing holidays before ACC kicks in
- Smaller ACC payments
- Bikes to be considered as part of the general motorists

And I could go on. But I think you get my point: This "Leave our ACC alone" is not uniting us bikers. It is deviding us!

[Bald Eagle]

A single issue that we can motivate bikers with and Jo and Jane Q Public will understand I like that


Loosing holidays before ACC kicks in

[mashman]

A single issue that we can motivate bikers with and Jo and Jane Q Public will understand I like that


Loosing holidays before ACC kicks in

When you're gone. Who will be looking after your children, friends, families, community should the worst happen?

[MSTRS:Me]

... most probably is what they were looking for to starters anyhow, but the November Bikeoi made a difference. We stood up, we made our point, and suddenly NZ Bikers are a group of ppl that are a force that needs to be considered when making decisions.

I know exactly what you are saying, but still playing Devil's Advocate...if (and that's a big if, cos none of us are in the Prick's inner circle) the level of rise is what he'd planned in the first place - then what did we win?

[oldrider]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here...but did it work? The amount was dropped, but is still unpalatably higher than other forms of private transport. And the unwarranted cc split stayed in. Other than a 'nod' to the levy amount, not a single thing we said was listened to.

And the reduction was "predetermined" and factored in depending upon the reaction from us!

These politicians are really skilled at poking shit out to an apathetic public!

It is after all, "what they do" for an above average living!

What we are doing here is kicking each other's rice bowl.

They (the politicians) get their rice out of the public trough, so we get kicked twice as hard, twice as often!

And "we" pay for it "all"!

It's a bit like David Tua fighting Lennox Lewis, David never changed his tactics for the whole fight and was overwhelmed by Lewis's boxing skills!

Lewis on the other hand did show respect for Tua's "power", the result could have been different if David had only changed his approach, even just enough to confuse and surprise Lewis might have done it!

Give Smith and Smiley Key another taste of our power, then introduce an element of surprise and create confusion amongst their coalition partners and anti-motorcycle proponents, like the AA!

Works OK for Al-Qaeda, doesn't it?

If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you've always got!

[Ixion]

I will refrace my point: I know that we are still charged a higher levy, I know that what we are now to pay most probably is what they were looking for to starters anyhow, but the November Bikeoi made a difference. We stood up, we made our point, and suddenly NZ Bikers are a group of ppl that are a force that needs to be considered when making decisions.

So I will parrot my self here: Lets take a new issue. One from the bunch of issues that we do not agree on and lets do it again. A single issue that we know that bikers are pissed off with and will all agree on. (I have said this umphteen times before, but feel I need to state it again: You will NEVER get bikers to agree on the whole "save our ACC" issue. many bikers want it privatised, many want it returned to how it was supposed to be etc. That is political, and even if we hear that this is political, for many bikers it is only re government bullkshit that we do not agree on. And yes, I realise that that is politics. But very few of us want to be politicaly active).

It has to be focused, it has to be simple, it has to be a "one issue" agenda.

Here a few:
- CC split
- STILL high levies!
- Loosing holidays before ACC kicks in
- Smaller ACC payments
- Bikes to be considered as part of the general motorists

And I could go on. But I think you get my point: This "Leave our ACC alone" is not uniting us bikers. It is deviding us!

Those correlate pretty well to BRONZ's position : which is

• No cc split
• bikes not a separate class, all private motor vehciles in together
• Abolition of full funding (because if bikes have to full fund, it's arithmetically impossible for our levies to come down)
• And a fairer way of charging the levy

technically, that would be compatible with privatisation of ACC delivery. Whether an insurance company would want to buy into it on those terms might be another matter.

[Conquiztador]

I know exactly what you are saying, but still playing Devil's Advocate...if (and that's a big if, cos none of us are in the Prick's inner circle) the level of rise is what he'd planned in the first place - then what did we win?

I would say (coming from a business background) that there was the "If nobody makes a noise we go for the top $$'s" scenario. Then there was a few others, and then at the bottom of what they could live with was the "If there is a big protest, we will have to setlle for $XXX, but taking all in to account, if we have to do that we can work with it". I recon that is what we achieved.

[Ixion]

I know exactly what you are saying, but still playing Devil's Advocate...if (and that's a big if, cos none of us are in the Prick's inner circle) the level of rise is what he'd planned in the first place - then what did we win?

Well, let's look at the numbers . For simplicity I'll focus on the 601cc+ rate, but the others follow the same logic

Mr Judge wanted $500 extra (roughly) for bikes, $130 extra for cars.
No no said the Nicksta , I'll see car drivers right. But not bikers, they should be paying $3500. His "see the car drivers right" was based on the extension of full funding to 2019. That made a difference of about $100 to the levies. So the cars were to get that reduction , but we weren't. Because he/they claimed that we should "really" be paying $3500 - so the $100 would be taken by ACC to reduce the shortfall a bit.

So, the Nicksta scheme was , cars pay an extra $30, bikes pay an extra $500.

Then the BIKEOI! rattled his cage. And he rethought a bit.

And so, we got the $100 off that the cars did, which we weren't going to. That, on its own, would have reduced the increase to an extra $400.

Then he took off another $200, just for bikes only, because of them being bolshie bastards who shout at him. Which reduced the increase to around $200 - total levy of $450 odd.

Now, I suspect that Mr Smith always had giving us the $100 as a fall back position. When/if we bitched, he'd generously reduce our increase by the same $100 as the cars. That would have left us paying an extra $400 (instead of the $200 we ended up with).

I very much doubt that the reduction from a $400 increase to a $200 increase was in the original plan. And that figure isn't based on any calculation (unlike the car increase, which IS a calculation). Ours is just a number out of thin air. I suspect he carefully picked a number that he figured was as high as he could get away with, and low enought to make most of the noise go away. A political decsion not an acturial one.


As Mr MSTRS says, we can never really know for certain . But I'd say that what he plannd in the first place was to reduce Mr Judges demands by $100 , same as cars. So, what we won was the extra $200 reduction above that. Still not enough, though. We should pay the same as cars.

[Conquiztador]

Those correlate pretty well to BRONZ's position : which is

• No cc split
• bikes not a separate class, all private motor vehciles in together
• Abolition of full funding (because if bikes have to full fund, it's arithmetically impossible for our levies to come down)
• And a fairer way of charging the levy

technically, that would be compatible with privatisation of ACC delivery. Whether an insurance company would want to buy into it on those terms might be another matter.

So lets pick one that gets our fire burning and then go for it! You try to do all those together and the average biker gets confused.

How bout a "Get rid of Smitty" one. I know it would not make a big difference. But would unite all bikers! And then the more dedicated ones could try and spread the bigger message.

[MSTRS:Me]

... we can never really know for certain . But I'd say that what he plannd in the first place was to reduce Mr Judges demands by $100 , same as cars. So, what we won was the extra $200 reduction above that. Still not enough, though. We should pay the same as cars.

What you say has the ring of reality about it. So we did win something. Good. But we didn't 'win' enough. So we will be back again. And again. Until we get what is fair. Or a change of govt hands Goff the chance to back up his words.

[Ixion]

So lets pick one that gets our fire burning and then go for it! You try to do all those together and the average biker gets confused.

How bout a "Get rid of Smitty" one. I know it would not make a big difference. But would unite all bikers! And then the more dedicated ones could try and spread the bigger message

Complex issue, though. And, like it or not, it *is* political. And not just bikers.

Simply, no way on earth do motorcyclists alone have the clout to get anything changed, except maybe our own levy.

So , any of those issues (except maybe no-cc-split) , we need allies. That's actually why we put the no-cc-split one in. If we got the "no separate motorcycle classification", then the no-cc-split becomes irrelevant. But no-cc-split is a "bike only" thing, so we can fight that front without allies.

For the rest, motorcyclists on their own won't make any difference at all . And, sorry, but no way on earth do we have the clout to get a Minister dismissed (unless someone can set up a honey trap with a goat ?)

Hence , we need to work with Labour and the Greens. The latter support no full funding. Labour, might be able to be convinced. Strategically, it would make total sense for Labour to support a non-full-funded model. Since they are committed to no privatisation, full funding has no advantage for them. And it would give them a clear distinction to National. At present, there's really bugger all difference between Labour ACC policies and National's. A matter of details and attitude, not of policy.

And we need to try to win AA support - either by pleading or by threatening, whichever will work. AA can (maybe) support non-full-funding. And if we want bikes lumped in with cars, AA opposition would be fatal.

So, picking one isn't that easy. None of them are an easy win. The *only* one we can win on our own (even with difficulty) is the no-cc-split. But, that just moves the pain around. We need to get rid of it, to prevent big bikes being targeted in the future. But here and now, it doesn't directly help much.

The rest all need support- so it's a matter of figuring where and how we can get it. And that dynamic has changed a bit since Tuesday, I think.

[StoneY]

The rest all need support- so it's a matter of figuring where and how we can get it. And that dynamic has changed a bit since Tuesday, I think.

Damn right it has.

Card carrying Labour member or not I was pissed off at the turnout from our 'big ally'

Greens and Labour really stood up, Phil's speech amd Materia's speech both got the blood moving, both made good sense, both promised to make sure its returned to the public, so thats technically one major breakthrough. Theyre on record now with those promises, but they still need to win an election before that means didly squat

Now...better get the hell out of here before Cherry B comes nad bashes me for not 'resting'

[Ixion]

My concern here would be that Labour analysts may say "Well, the ACC thing doesn't seem to be getting traction. Even our own supporters can't be bothered with it, let alone it winning us any votes. Flag it away and concentrate on something else". Greens might too, though less likely they tend to be a bit , "different".

[Conquiztador]

My concern here would be that Labour analysts may say "Well, the ACC thing doesn't seem to be getting traction. Even our own supporters can't be bothered with it, let alone it winning us any votes. Flag it away and concentrate on something else". Greens might too, though less likely they tend to be a bit , "different".

Bikers in general do not want to be part of a political movement. We have an issue (or maybe two) that we do not like re how the country is run. Apart from that we could not give a shit re who is running this place. One issue was the proposed high ACC levies. We went to Welly to tell them that they better sort this or we be back. They did.

Now if you want the full support of bikers again, you need to reinvent that formula. Non-political (and I dont want a lecture in that this is political, as for the patched bikie and even me it was not! It was a simple "too fucking expensive, drop the price!), one issue that ALL bikers can feel strongly about.

The way I see it is to settle for that one issue, then start to drum up the support, and then re do it. Again and again and...

[MSTRS:Me]

Would you have felt differently, if you rode a 125cc bike? In which case, your levy would go down.
Yes, the high proposed levy was what got our attention...but ALL of the proposals were and are unfair - based as they are on lies, misinformation and dubious statistics. Really, we are fighting all of it, not just a single bit.

[Bald Eagle]

The way I see it is to settle for that one issue, then start to drum up the support, and then re do it. Again and again and...

Yep we gotta eat the elephant a spoonful at a time, it's deciding which spoonful.

[BMWST?]

Bikers in general do not want to be part of a political movement. We have an issue (or maybe two) that we do not like re how the country is run. Apart from that we could not give a shit re who is running this place. One issue was the proposed high ACC levies. We went to Welly to tell them that they better sort this or we be back. They did.

Now if you want the full support of bikers again, you need to reinvent that formula. Non-political (and I dont want a lecture in that this is political, as for the patched bikie and even me it was not! It was a simple "too fucking expensive, drop the price!), one issue that ALL bikers can feel strongly about.

The way I see it is to settle for that one issue, then start to drum up the support, and then re do it. Again and again and...

well do you think it is still to expensive?Forget about the other stuff.Would you(and the other bikers) come to Welly (or whatever) again for that? Even though there may be other ACC issues as well?