Keep Wellington motorcycling free - sign the petition!

[StoneY]

Hope this aint a double post.... just received through BRONZ connections, some very good stuff

http://notobikeparkingtax.com/

Campaign allies


The chap from Island Bay thats been lobbying council has contacted BRONZ as well... he is solidly in our camp and has a primo submission!

Ill get our secretary to check we can copy it here before I post content tho so bear with us guys (our org has some rules after all and its not all about me and what I wanna say...honestly!)

WIMA, Ulysses, and MAG are all on board as well
The machine is rolling, lets make it a juggernaut that cannot be ignored!

[jrandom]

Some of us are smart enough to keep our licences.

Heh! A minority, though. A fairly tiny minority.

Running afoul of the road regulations is a rite of motorcycling passage, Dave. A rite that one generally goes through before taking it to the racetrack and getting it out of one's system. A rite that one suspects is a necessary prerequisite to becoming an interesting bike mag writer.

(The rhetorical device I employed there is called 'anaphora', by the way. Try it sometime!)

Anyhow. That was off-topic. You're still a bunch of tubby whinging scrooges who don't want to pay to take up space in cramped central cities, or sweat a few drops instead of using motor vehicles.

I do not expect to see any decision-making sympathies successfully engaged on the subject.

[Big Dave]

I was just taking the piss! 'Get f@cked' would have done.

Yeah we have track testers and road testers - but I got top billing in this month's KR

[James Deuce]

For those who refuse to read the fine print (Dan, Mokadah and others):

1. WCC have a bylaw that prevents motorcycles from using metered parks. Motorcycles are not allowed to park in them.

2. Wilson Parking have a policy that prevents motorcycles from parking in car parks in their parking buildings.

3. WCC have banned parking on the footpath (obviously where it doesn't impact on pedestrian access - anyone who blocks the footpath deserves a ticket) and will ticket people parked on private property adjacent to footpaths. You are then left with providing proof that you are parked on private property.

Remove motorcycle parking and where do bikes park? WCC claim to be investigating contracting parks from private enterprise, but private enterprise has actively prevented casual parking by motorcycles in parking buildings for the last 25 years. If there is a contract signed it will take months (if ever) for Wilson parking to magic up the parking spaces without affecting space for cars. Tournament Parking have no clear policy, but I used to have trouble from time to time when I parked my bike in my personal permanent park provided by work. I had a bit of comedy watching some idiot trying to affix a wheel clamp to my bike.

This doesn't look like a "make bikes pay for parking move to me". This looks like an attempt to prevent people using bikes for commuting. At least, they'll make it expensive enough for people to consider public transport as a viable alternative. At worst, there will simply be nowhere to park a bike in the Wellington CBD. If you have to be anywhere on time Wellington public transport is utter bullshit.

[pzkpfw]

... This looks like an attempt to prevent people using bikes for commuting. ...

Rhetorical question: have you seen how many one-person-per-car commuters there are on the motorways?!

They (WCC et al) seem to be looking the wrong way to "fix" whatever problem they are working on.

[caseye]

For those who refuse to read the fine print (Dan, Mokadah and others):

1. WCC have a bylaw that prevents motorcycles from using metered parks. Motorcycles are not allowed to park in them.

2. Wilson Parking have a policy that prevents motorcycles from parking in car parks in their parking buildings.

3. WCC have banned parking on the footpath (obviously where it doesn't impact on pedestrian access - anyone who blocks the footpath deserves a ticket) and will ticket people parked on private property adjacent to footpaths. You are then left with providing proof that you are parked on private property.

Remove motorcycle parking and where do bikes park? WCC claim to be investigating contracting parks from private enterprise, but private enterprise has actively prevented casual parking by motorcycles in parking buildings for the last 25 years. If there is a contract signed it will take months (if ever) for Wilson parking to magic up the parking spaces without affecting space for cars. Tournament Parking have no clear policy, but I used to have trouble from time to time when I parked my bike in my personal permanent park provided by work. I had a bit of comedy watching some idiot trying to affix a wheel clamp to my bike.

This doesn't look like a "make bikes pay for parking move to me". This looks like an attempt to prevent people using bikes for commuting. At least, they'll make it expensive enough for people to consider public transport as a viable alternative. At worst, there will simply be nowhere to park a bike in the Wellington CBD. If you have to be anywhere on time Wellington public transport is utter bullshit.

Awesome post JD, I too don't believe it's anything to do with parking issues but the councils ( after a big push by Pollies I'd wager) attempt to make it uneconomic/viable to use motorcycles to commute.
This cannot be allowed to happen as per the last episode if we let it happen in Welly, it WILL HAPPEN everywhere else in the country.

[BMWST?]

actually having read the policy i dont think there is much here to threaten us.The coucil have undertaken to keep motorycle parking

from table 2
Parking for:
• Shoppers
• Community
facilities
• Educational
facilities
• Residents
• Commuters
• Sportsfields
The use of on-street road space to park cars and
motorbikes, be it through:
• metered and non-metered short stay parking to
support retail, commercial and other activity
• residents’ parking
• coupon parking

and the top of page 7


h. Parking spaces for motorbikes will continue to be provided in
appropriate location

our vehicles also comply with the councils aims in more efficient transport.Ie less space,less overall fuel and energy consumption(be careful here modern cars can have very good consumption figures and carry 4 people,but of course ussually dont carry more than 1)
I think we need to temper our approach somewhat.There is NOTHING in this policy to suggest any changes for us.
I read the policy very quickly,if you think I am incorrect point out the clause in the policy

[James Deuce]

actually having read the policy i dont think there is much here to threaten us.The coucil have undertaken to keep motorycle parking

from table 2

• metered and non-metered short stay parking to
support retail, commercial and other activity


h. Parking spaces for motorbikes will continue to be provided in
appropriate location


I think we need to temper our approach somewhat.There is NOTHING in this policy to suggest any changes for us.

It's currently illegal for motorcycles to use metered parking in WCC jurisdiction.

I can't reiterate that enough. It is unfortunately the result of a previous campaign to oust free parking for motorcycles in the Wellington CBD 20 years ago. It was the flip side of allowing the continued use of free parks. Then, as now there were a lot of people using motorcycles as transport in Wellington and WCC were simply looking to generate revenue from that previously untouched resource. Then motorcycle usage declined markedly almost overnight.

The current Mayor wishes to remove all private transport from central Wellington. Motorcycles are a small minority and there are a couple of simple ways to remove them altogether:

1. Ban them from metered parks - already done.
2. Remove free parking and provide no alternative.

This has been hashed over during the previous debate. In the previous attempt the council ran the car parks and were going to provide parks at the Terrace and Bond St and remove all on street parking for bikes. That was it. I would suggest IF there is a contract with a private organisation both the number of parks and the locations will reduce precipitously, IF the private organisations will take on motorcycle parking. I don't think they will unless they are allowed to charge the same amount for a bike park as they would a car park, which as we know is ridiculous given that you can get between 4 & 6 bikes to the same space a car occupies.

Wilson Parking's main objection is that more than one bike can fit in a car park and how do we know who has paid for it? It's not an issue for casual parking where you present your ticket to pay, is it? However that argument falls on deaf ears.

[Fatt Max]

Have signed on behalf of Fat Bikers Motorcycle Club.

Does that signature count for two by the way..???

[riffer]

Have signed on behalf of Fat Bikers Motorcycle Club.

Does that signature count for two by the way..???

No. The signatures need to come from individuals, not organisations.

[riffer]

... actually having read the policy i dont think there is much here to threaten us.The coucil have undertaken to keep motorycle parking
... I think we need to temper our approach somewhat.There is NOTHING in this policy to suggest any changes for us.

Agreed. However, the policy does not preclude changes outside of the Annual Plan as well. You will note that the recent changes to the Golden Mile have resulted in the loss of approximately 40 motorcycle parks from the city, after promises in the Annual Plan that motorcycle parks would not be lost. Infrastructure Performance to a certain extent runs from within BAU rather than the Plan.

It's been my experience that while Councillors and Mayor may design the Annual Plan, it's extremely difficult to prevent the staff who implement this plan from making their own interpretation of it.

It is good that Council have requested consultation with representatives of the motorcycling community - however this should not be construed as acceptance that we will be listened to.

Our biggest problem seems to be that for whatever reason motorcycle traffic has increased markedly in the last five years and that Wellington City Council has struggled to cope with this increase. They are looking for solutions, and as is to be expected in this stage of the financial year, ideas are being put forward as to how to deal with this, in a cost-neutral for the Council way.

It must also be remembered that this is a cyclical thing - in the 1970s and 1980s motorcycle traffic was a lot greater.

[StoneY]

actually having read the policy i dont think there is much here to threaten us.The coucil have undertaken to keep motorycle parking

I have read the same report Paul however nowhere in it does it state they intend to keep our parking for Motorcycles FREE
It does refer to allowing for parking 'on street where suitable' but I cannot find anywhere it states that the Motorcycle parking will remain free

I wont post up the invite council officers sent us to 'participate in a casual pre consultation discussion' as it would simply cause massive outrage at the way it is worded, the hot headed types would be down at the council office looking for blood

But trust me on this, it clearly states an intent to measure our reaction to paying fee's to park our motorcycles in either an off road situation with parking buildings (read contract charges) or other suitable alternatives , which I again read to mean pay for your space.....or dont bring a motorcycle

Not good either way

[Eyegasm]

Anyhow. That was off-topic. You're still a bunch of tubby whinging scrooges who don't want to pay to take up space in cramped central cities, or sweat a few drops instead of using motor vehicles.

Ok, I'll admit to being a lil tubby and refuse to sweat a few drops to bike to work. But
I am not a scrooge.

2. Wilson Parking have a policy that prevents motorcycles from parking in car parks in their parking buildings.

Tournament Parking have no clear policy, but I used to have trouble from time to time when I parked my bike in my personal permanent park provided by work. I had a bit of comedy watching some idiot trying to affix a wheel clamp to my bike.

Tournament parking is quite good on motorcycle parking (unsure on casual parking)
I use Tournament Parking and pay $50 a month for 24 hour access.

That is the reason I signed the petition, I do not want more motorcycles clogging up my parking area. Currently have about 3 meters of space and only 2 motorcycles park there. Heaps of room.

[Jon Visser]

Hi all and a happy New Year.

Thank you to all those with nice comments about me. I have read all 10 pages - very interesting. While I am not the person that will be reviewing the council's policy on motorcycle parking within the CBD, I will certainly be involved in the review as I will need to implement whatever the outcome is. Therefore I have just as much vested interest in getting this right, because all I want is for the limited kerbside parking space that we have in our city to be effectively and fairly utilised, with no specific group of users feeling compelled to park illegally because they believe that their particular needs have not been catered for.

I am a little surprised at this rather significant response to an issue that I have been telling you we've been working on (and would come up) since 2009. As per the previous thread on motorcycle parking in Wellington (can someone post a link?) we've dealt with most of the significant motorcycle parking issues in Wellington City, but there were two key areas of concern that KB members had expressed which we have not yet addressed:
- lack of space for casual parking for motorcycles/scooters
- lack of forward thinking in our approach to managing on-road parking for motorcycles/scooters such that we can respond appropriately to changing usage numbers.

I have therefore stated many times that we would be addressing these two issues at some pont in the future, which is now. The first step is to involve key representatives at the very outset of looking at our policies, i.e. BEFORE we propose any changes. Such early involvement was actually requested by KB forum members. We should therefore be commended on listening to what you wanted, and acting on your requests. There is absolutely no proposal at this stage to introduce parking fees for motorcycles/scooters. In considering our future policy, we will need to consider all possible alternatives to address the current problems being experienced by casual parkers, e.g. including free parking, time limited parking and fee-restricted parking. We should not be developing such policies "in a vacuum", hence the invitation for key representatives to meet with us before we make any proposals at all.

Now for a few facts:

* I raised on KB last year that the Mercer Street parking spaces were under review and that the new layout showed a reduced number of spaces. I encouraged you all to put in a submission if you had any concerns about this. As far as I know the council did not receive any objections at all. As a consequence, the changes were made as proposed. If that is not the outcome you wished, why did no-one speak up? If you want to change our minds on an issue, you need to take responsibility and let your views be known. Therefore a great "bravo" on the current e-petition, which does exactly that. I can assure you that such a significant response will deffinitely influence our thinking, without needing to resort to any other types of action. In fact, it would have been even easier just to come and have a chat with us about what we are working on, so that there may not even be any need for any of this "confrontational" approach.

* riffer - not sure why the big aggro towards me when all we are doing is trying to get you guys on-board and include you in our policy development process BEFORE we propose any changes - is that not what you wanted in the first place? If that is going to be your response every time we invite your input into developing our new policies, should we bother with pre-consultation in future or would you rather perpetuate an adversarial approach? Now, you've mentioned a few things about me that are not quite right. I did not specify the exact wording you had to use. I did make a few suggestions. I was the one that alluded to the research, for which we have previously provided links (see the previous thread). However, I doubt everyone will ever agree on these statistics and research outcomes - I expect there's plenty of info out there to support any point of view. Therefore I suggested that rather than making this debate about the virtues of riding motorcycles over horse-drawn carriages etc, we focus on the particular issue that the council is currently going to look at and that is:
- Limited kerbside parking space
- Excess demand from all types of road users (i.e. all types of vehicles and short/long term needs)
- Problems faced by motorcycle/scooter riders wanting to park casually during the day due to motorcycle/scooter riders parking all day, noting that according to our Parking Policy our kerbside space should supporting casual parkers and not commuters.
How the e-petition was ultimately worded was really up to you.

* Bogan - cost of a multi-bay meter (plus roadmarkings & signs etc) is about $12,000 and about $1,000 per year to service. You can do the sums to work out what a break-even fee per hour would be based on typical usage hours, bays having about 6 spaces on average and a reasonable payback period (say a trienium? :-) . I doubt this would be an effective or economic option due to the much cheaper rates offered by parking garages (see below) for all-day parking. Therefore maximum time restrictions would likely need to accompany a fee restriction (as we do for all Pay & Display spaces) and if the desired turnover is achieved through the time restriction then what is the point of introducing the fee?

* James Deuce - Wilsons have confirmed on this forum (can someone post a link?) that ALL their garages are now open to motorcycles to use. All three commercial operators in Wellington (i.e. Wilsons, Tournament and CarePark) have now opened their garages to riders. Fees are typically $50/month (i.e. $2/day) for motorcycles compared to $200/month for cars, to reflect the reduced space used. The more riders start using these facilities, the more they will imporove, e.g. by introducing locking rings and storage cabinets for helmets & wet weather gear etc. As more car drivers shift to motorcycles, parking garages now need to treat riders as valuable customers or lose business. Therefore they now understand that it is in their best interests to provide better access and facilities for riders (e.g. lighting & security etc). Two parking garages already provide free spaces for riders (for about 20 to 30 motorcycles/scooters) - James Smith & Clifton.

As always, I am happy to listen to all your views, and will do my best to help bring about improvements where I can. Where this is not possible I will try to provide a reasonable explanation.

Kind regards,

Jon Visser
Manager, Infrastructure Performance
Wellington City Council

[Str8 Jacket]

I am a little surprised at this rather significant response to an issue that I have been telling you we've been working on (and would come up) since 2009.

Yes we get 'told' lots of things by the councils and politicians all the time. Maybe its about time people started listening instead of just talking?

[riffer]

Hi Jon,

thanks for coming on board with this discussion.

Firstly, I'm not advocating an adversarial approach in the slightest. In fact, I am delighted that WCC have chosen to consult with us.

If I have offended you I unreservedly apologise. Let's start again.

As far as disruptive action goes, BRONZ rules preclude us from instigating this. However, we do have associations with other motorcycling groups and their rules are different. So it remains a possibility albeit one BRONZ would prefer to avoid.

[Toaster]

Nice work! Sign up everyone!!!

Signed it today. Disgusted to see the council STILL trying this on.

[Nasty]

Signed it today. Disgusted to see the council STILL trying this on.

What are the Council who has nothing out for consultation trying on?????

There is a review that motorcyclists have been asked to participate in - and that is it.

God forbid that they include groups affected in anything - which they have done.

Since no one bothers to respond when Council does consult (read Jons post) - who is at fault - those who ask for responses or those who can't be arsed.

[James Deuce]

* James Deuce - Wilsons have confirmed on this forum (can someone post a link?) that ALL their garages are now open to motorcycles to use. All three commercial operators in Wellington (i.e. Wilsons, Tournament and CarePark) have now opened their garages to riders. Fees are typically $50/month (i.e. $2/day) for motorcycles compared to $200/month for cars, to reflect the reduced space used. The more riders start using these facilities, the more they will imporove, e.g. by introducing locking rings and storage cabinets for helmets & wet weather gear etc. As more car drivers shift to motorcycles, parking garages now need to treat riders as valuable customers or lose business. Therefore they now understand that it is in their best interests to provide better access and facilities for riders (e.g. lighting & security etc). Two parking garages already provide free spaces for riders (for about 20 to 30 motorcycles/scooters) - James Smith & Clifton.

James Smith and Clifton Tce aren't particularly handy. I would suggest that the majority of riders would find Clifton Tce and James Smith somewhat inconvenient as well. If the on street parking is going to go, then there will need to be parks spread over the city. I do not believe for an instant that that will happen due to "economies of scale". There is also no way that I would leave my gear in a parking building. I would suggest that the majority of riders would find Clifton Tce and James Smith somewhat inconvenient as well.

I would also suggest that my experience with private parking companies over the last 10 years has significantly coloured my response to the idea of using them for parking a motorcycle. I've had my bike moved, towed, other people were caught up in the spate of thefts from parking buildings in 2004 to 2006 and I don't see why I should have to apologise for that attitude. I do not trust them and with good reason.

Car drivers are not shifting to bikes. There is no evidence to suggest that and anecdotally there are huge numbers of bikes over 600cc for sale due to punitive ACC levies. Commuter rider numbers will decrease over the Winter 2011 period and will not return to previous levels. If the free parks go then one of the two incentives to commute on a bike is gone. The other is the ability to lanesplit. Riders of over 600cc motorcycles know that they are both less economical and more expensive than a small, modern car. Remove the incentives and there'll be no need to provide parks.

In terms of the "aggro" I would suggest that you just need to look at the track record of local and central Government who "claim" to consult and then continue with their plans in the face of overwhelming public opposition. Quite simply, we EXPECT to be shafted.

[riffer]

Free motorcycle / scooter parking areas are available in central Wellington in locations signposted No Stopping Except for Motorcycles. Most of these areas are designated Monday - Saturday, 8.00am - 6.00pm. If there are additional restrictions or the areas are designated Motorcycle Parking at All Times, the signage will indicate accordingly.

Up to two motorcycles may use a car park controlled by a single-head parking meter (but not mobility spaces unless displaying the appropriate permit). Each rider is individually responsible for ensuring the meter is not expired and not exceeding the maximum time restriction.

Motorcycles may not use pay-and-display spaces as they are unable to securely attach receipts where wardens can easily find them.


Commuters are encouraged to find parking off the public road (eg public and private parking facilities) to free space for other riders to come and go during the day. The Council has arranged for all parking companies to provide good quality space and competitive rates for riders.


Parking on footpaths and road carriageways at the ends of parallel parks or by pedestrian crossings is hazardous for pedestrians and cars and is illegal. Illegally parked motorcycles and scooters will be ticketed.