Keep Wellington motorcycling free - sign the petition!

[bogan]

* Bogan - cost of a multi-bay meter (plus roadmarkings & signs etc) is about $12,000 and about $1,000 per year to service. You can do the sums to work out what a break-even fee per hour would be based on typical usage hours, bays having about 6 spaces on average and a reasonable payback period (say a trienium? :-) . I doubt this would be an effective or economic option due to the much cheaper rates offered by parking garages (see below) for all-day parking. Therefore maximum time restrictions would likely need to accompany a fee restriction (as we do for all Pay & Display spaces) and if the desired turnover is achieved through the time restriction then what is the point of introducing the fee?

Thanks for the response.

In windy welli the paper ticket approach would be most difficult (plenty of wardens struggle to find a rego even when attached), all parks would need to be laid out and given numbers, which either doesn't leave enough room for big bikes, or leaves too much for scoots, so I agree, there's no point introducing a fee.

Do you have figures of what the ratio of bike parking space to car space (on street) is currently?

[James Deuce]

The Council has arranged for all parking companies to provide good quality space and competitive rates for riders

Quite simply, this needs to be in more than 2 locations.

[Clockwork]

The Council has arranged for all parking companies to provide good quality space and competitive rates for riders.

Am I being overly cynical? The consultation process has not yet begun but Council have already made these arrangements for us?

[StoneY]

Hi all and a happy New Year.

Thank you to all those with nice comments about me.

Your welcome Jon I always found you to be approachable amicable and to keep your word, and a happy new year to you as well

Now for a few facts:

* I raised on KB last year that the Mercer Street parking spaces were under review and that the new layout showed a reduced number of spaces. I encouraged you all to put in a submission if you had any concerns about this. As far as I know the council did not receive any objections at all. As a consequence, the changes were made as proposed. If that is not the outcome you wished, why did no-one speak up?

Mercer St
Jon I found no refference to Mercer Street being reduced in avaialble bike spaces by the number it has been, link please? Or re-post that post here in this thread maybe?
Not that I dont believe you but if this was offered to consultation, that offer has been lost in the clutter somewhere in that other thread, maybe a more pointed, seperate thread to notify us of such an invite would have been more effective?
Or even to e-mail me at president@bronzwellington.org.nz ?
Just a thought... because as KB is a forum maybe it is not the best place to invite SERIOUS consultation, and I thank the officer from Council who DID e-mail me via our official channels. Kudos to him!

Why did we miss the Mercer refference?

We were left with the impression from your last lengthy thread here that as long as we kept off the pavements there would be no reduction in Motorcycle Parking spaces in Wellington (right or wrong thats the impression at least we were left with, Mercer street has lost over 40 bike spots where have we been given that space for in return?)
The 500 spaces we HAD were as a reward for being forbidden to use paying kerb spaces according to popular opinion,now we have less!

How the e-petition was ultimately worded was really up to you.

Not the case at all John if this was true your officers who vet the petitions would have put our original wording in it and not tried insisting we are more harmful to the environment, exact wording of the reply is posted two or three pages back

And as to the discrepancies in the research data, even if bikes without CATs burn a bit dirtier, as the motors work far more efficiently and under far leas weight/torque load so burn far less fuel on average per km travelled (with some exceptions of course) so we could keep debating these issues on environment impact till the cows come home......
What upset Riffer (and MOST of us in fact) so much was the statement we cause WORSE congestion with the number of serious crashes we have.... say what???!!!

That’s a load mate, a total load.....we CAN prove that’s bullshit speculation and opinion, we have all the crash data you could want courtesy of Dr Charles Lamb PHD.
The way the response was written back to Riffer, had named you as the source of that statement leaving me to assure my team at BRONZ 'I doubt Jon would have said that in such a way'........

Crashes on Wellingtons roads, cars vs bikes
I have yet to be delayed these last 12 months of daily commuting by a single motorcycle accident... as where as I am delayed weekly (although as I lane split its less of a delay) by cars, people movers, and mostly rubberneckers in regards accident delays... and I do mean weekly, like the Toyota Previa I found on its roof just north of Ngaraunga last week??? 12 teenagers sitting at roadside, 3 fire trucks 2 ambo's and 4 Police Vehicles...funny enough there was no delay for Motorcyclists, cops waved us through the crash scene....cars sat burning fuel and creating emissions for about 30 minutes.... hmmm. Cat converters or not, 300 cars in the Q engines idling as the motorbikes are waved through by Police.... who’s causing environmental harm in that scenario Jon?
Bike crashes are cleared in no time by comparison any mug can see that so please show us PROOF we cause bigger delays and environment damage with ‘frequent serious crashes’
That one very bogus generalisation really pissed us all off mate, far more so than the fuel/C02/emmissions issue could ever do.

Studies on emmissions
Emissions, an issue which as we all know can be argued in either direction, however I take the view of California's authorities...there is not enough bikes or exhaust FROM those bikes on thier highways/roads to cause concern in regards emissions, the fact they reduce flow and parking congestion is enough to compensate any discrepancy....
Other studies from Europe have convinced most large European cities we ARE a benefit, so I will prefer to lean towards them studies of course.

As always, I am happy to listen to all your views, and will do my best to help bring about improvements where I can. Where this is not possible I will try to provide a reasonable explanation.

Kind regards,

Jon Visser
Manager, Infrastructure Performance
Wellington City Council

And I for one have been trying to tell people this Jon

I know you're a straight shooter, and I appreciate your honest candour.
But to have expected that last thread to alert us to the need to consult on Mercer st's reduction in parking is not a very good comeback I am sad to say.

Please invite consultation via slightly more formal channels and maybe you'll get a more realistic response, such as the current e-petition we opened.
I am pleased the council officer that invited consultation did take such an approach..


Now you were there at BIKEOI Jon and saw the numbers and support behind the motorcycle issue's we face.
2$ a day may not seem much to you but to add yet another 600$ a year to MY motorcycling budget, when as far as we are concerned there is a lot of useless kerb space being ignored around this city we could use, is just as inflammatory to me and most motorcyclists as the ACC hikes were

We will not be happy to have to take parking contracts, we save your council a LOT of road wear, a lot of space (if all of us riders bring a car for a whole week instead of our bikes you will soon see) and there is so many service lanes, wide footpaths, huge un used sections of paving around (the wee cubbyhole by the old Courtenay Place loo's for example, useless paving and a PERFECT bike park) and Boulcott St (we were NEVER in anyone’s way by Plimmer Steps) that are going to waste...

Melbourne allows bikers footpath parking if no entrance ways, hydrants, shop windows etc are impaired as do many major cities world wide.
We will be pushing for MORE free parking when we come to have the chat my friend, and we look forward to the chance to participate.

Again thank you for coming onto KB to address the concerns of the forum members, BRONZ and allies will see your representatives on the 1st as per invite

Cheers

Brent

PS: Its likely we missed the mercer st headsup as we were going all out to organise BIKEOI at the time your last thread drew to a close Jon. Unfortunate, but re-inforces the need to invite the likes of BRONZ via formal channels www.bronzwellington.org.nz

[Jon Visser]

In windy welli the paper ticket approach would be most difficult.

Do you have figures of what the ratio of bike parking space to car space (on street) is currently?

Easiest meter approach would be what is called a "multibay" meter. Each space is individually marked and numbered and people feed the meter for the space they have parked in. That would be the most practical approach IF one was to consider charging fees...

We have about 3,400 car parking spaces (for about 80,000 cars/day, of which about 40,000 are casual parkers) and about 550 motorcycle spaces (for about 1,100 bikes per day, of which we are not yet sure how many are casual parkers).

[Jon Visser]

Quite simply, this needs to be in more than 2 locations.

There are heaps of locations offering motorcycle parking:
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/servic...le-parking.pdf
All the blue ones are free public ones. All the coloured ones are private facilities. Like anything, maps get out of date (we have recently added heaps more free motorcycle parks at the railway station and a few other high-demand locations).

See also:
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/servic.../onstreet.html

[bogan]

Easiest meter approach would be what is called a "multibay" meter. Each space is individually marked and numbered and people feed the meter for the space they have parked in. That would be the most practical approach IF one was to consider charging fees...

yeh thats what i outlined, but as stated, this would likely reduce the number of bikes able to park in a given space.

[StoneY]

Like anything, maps get out of date (we have recently added heaps more free motorcycle parks at the railway station and a few other high-demand locations).

The logic of adding them to a Train and Bus transport hub eludes me Jon.
Did anyone suggest we want to park our bikes and get on a bus to make the last 2 k's to the office or something?
Thats really illogical to park Motorcycles at a train station I mean come on..........

[oneofsix]

The logic of adding them to a Train and Bus transport hub eludes me Jon.
Did anyone suggest we want to park our bikes and get on a bus to make the last 2 k's to the office or something?
Thats really illogical to park Motorcycles at a train station I mean come on..........

umm mind boggling, imagine sitting on a train or bus in full bike gear especial on a wet day

[Jon Visser]

Why did we miss the Mercer refference?
We were left with the impression from your last lengthy thread here that as long as we kept off the pavements there would be no reduction in Motorcycle Parking spaces in Wellington

I Posted to KB on 21 December 2010 about the Mercer Street changes and a URL link on how to put in a submission:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...parking/page28

On 22 December RusoR then wrote:
"'Originally Posted by Jon Visser
The following has just been released by WCC. Within all of the proposed changes, the only one affecting motorcycle parks is in Mercer Street. If you have any feedback please direct this towards the project manager whose contact details are included in the attached letter.'

Thanks for pointing this out Jon, a quick squiz at the size of the existing M/C park in Mercer Street versus the size of the proposed M/C park shows a glaring space deficit. Thanks to WCC planning staff for once again considering the needs of motorcyclists in the CBD.
I have no doubt the project management will be hearing about this."

Chocolate Boy and Nasty also posted on the topic (encouraging people to put in a submission). Maybe everyone thought that everyone else would do it? We've received very little correspondence about the changes since they were made and illegal parking hasn't increased in the area so I assume that most of the riders found somewhere else appropriate to park?

We have recently added about 50 additional motorcycle parking spaces throughout the city (yet to be updated on the maps) to compensate (though obviously not at the same location): Railway Station, Featherston St, College St, Victoria/Ghuznee, Stout St, Hunter St, Panama St, Abel Smith St, Jessie St?, Cable St? - I need to review a few of those to confirm whether they have actually gone in yet, but on balance I think that since the start of the thread, facilities in Wellington have improved through a combination of riders expressing their views and the Council listening and responding to those views.

I can guarantee you that one thing is certain: we will always need to review how our parking space is allocated and adjust to meet changes to demand and our streetscape. One thing I have agreed is that some areas on the road that cannot be used by cars can be marked as OK for motorcycles to use (e.g. as we have marked in Featherston and Panama Streets) and if you raise these with me then I can get them considered for approval. In response to all your other comments, these have all already been covered here:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...n-bike-parking
so I will not reiterate them. We may just need to differ on some opinions.

Kind regards,

Jon Visser

[StoneY]

I Posted to KB on 21 December 2010 about the Mercer Street changes and a URL link on how to put in a submission:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...parking/page28

Parking-They-are-about-to-clamp-down-on-bike-parking[/url]
so I will not reiterate them. We may just need to differ on some opinions.

Kind regards,

Jon Visser

Thanks Jon

Huge thread was having trouble trolling back through it with any accuracy

Still stunned by adding parks to the Train Station though.... logic on that one defies me
:-)

BH

[James Deuce]

There are heaps of locations offering motorcycle parking:
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/servic...le-parking.pdf
All the blue ones are free public ones. All the coloured ones are private facilities. Like anything, maps get out of date (we have recently added heaps more free motorcycle parks at the railway station and a few other high-demand locations).

See also:
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/servic.../onstreet.html

I'm not talking about free parking. I'm talking about privately owned parking buildings only. The ones listed do not match with personal experience, albeit over a year ago.

[davebullet]

We have about 3,400 car parking spaces (for about 80,000 cars/day, of which about 40,000 are casual parkers) and about 550 motorcycle spaces (for about 1,100 bikes per day, of which we are not yet sure how many are casual parkers).

Given the above ratios - I can understand fees and time restrictions for car parking - given the high demand. However - given the ratio of bikes and spaces available, there doesn't seem to be the pressing need to implement time or cost restrictions for motorcycle parking.

[caseye]

Happy New Year and welcome back to KB, Jon.
Many thanks for your rather lengthy but informative post.
From reading it once or twice I deduce that at this stage Welly Council has no particular intention of charging for motorbike parks.We motorcyclists need to stay alert here, though)
I further deduce that where once Private car park operators would not countenance motorcycles being parked in their buildings, that Now they wil.Well done the Welly Council,Jon?)
Further that they are in fact being remarkably restrained in their pricing.(I hear ya Stoney, but parking in these places has always cost but bikes could not! use em, now they can,a good thing!)
Again Welly Council have whether they mean't to or not managed to invite us hairy arsed bikers over for a chat re motorbike parking in their city. Before making any decisions.(This did not and should not preclude them talking with the private parking companies and getting concensus and agreement on bikes NOW being able to park there)
So far Jon, after saying what I have in this thread and then hearing from you, I've got to say that things look decidedly different from my perspective now than they did a couple of days ago.
Good on you for coming into the Lions Den and good luck with keeping your head above water.
I'm not going to go sit on the sidelines, I am a biker and i don't want to pay any more than i/you already have to to simply go about my lawful business.
I sincerely hope that the talks/consultations go well and that agreements can be reached.

[cheshirecat]

There are heaps of locations offering motorcycle parking:
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/servic...le-parking.pdf
All the blue ones are free public ones. All the coloured ones are private facilities. Like anything, maps get out of date (we have recently added heaps more free motorcycle parks at the railway station and a few other high-demand locations).

See also:
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/servic.../onstreet.html

happy New Year to you.

How's your ballroom dancing comming on - you are probably better of on this forum!

[all4A50s]

Sorry Jon, but I'm still suspicious. Until the council members and related workers comes out and says they will not be imposing fees on motorcycle parking and will quit their jobs before doing so I won't be convinced. I have heard similar rhetoric before and seen fees/cut backs still imposed too many times.

The impression I have at present is the council would prefer everyone to catch public transport and such measures are to persuade people to do so. So why not fine all those drivers who drive private cars during to and from work with no one else in the car. From what I see every day I ride to work about 40-60% of cars (which don't have any sign writing on them) only have one person in them. The other problems with catching public transport is 1, the cost it works out to be about $4 more expensive everyday (using concessions) than for me to ride to work and 2, I live in Wainuiomata and work in Wellington. It take's me around 1/2 an hour to ride to work and about 11/2 - 21/2 hours catching public transport to travel the same distance. I also have children and would have to pay for childcare in the morning is I caught public transport (at least and extra $50 -$100 per week). My wife (she works shift work) and I have both looked into it separately to see is it was possible and affordable and the answer if a big no for us.

After the trouble I have had with keeping other road users off the new (timed) motorcycle parks and having to constantly be taking photos of my bike being parked in different places to stop it being ticketed by over zealous parking wardens These same wardens insist on chalking the side of the tyre so no matter how far you drive the chalk mark won't rub off as you drive.

And as to jrandom comments ("You're still a bunch of tubby whinging scrooges who don't want to pay to take up space in cramped central cities, or sweat a few drops instead of using motor vehicles.") Do you run everywhere and/or always pay for parking?

[zahria]

Signed the petition, watching with interest.
I reckon those of us that own cars should visit the CBD, and park up for an hour or so and have a sign to say what we're up to.
Anyway, will wait and see if the talk from the council reps matches the eventual walk.

[cheshirecat]

Sorry Jon, but I'm still suspicious. Until the council members and related workers comes out and says they will not be imposing fees on motorcycle parking and will quit their jobs before doing so I won't be convinced. I have heard similar rhetoric before and seen fees/cut backs still imposed too many times.

The impression I have at present is the council would prefer everyone to catch public transport and such measures are to persuade people to do so. So why not fine all those drivers who drive private cars during to and from work with no one else in the car. From what I see every day I ride to work about 40-60% of cars (which don't have any sign writing on them) only have one person in them. The other problems with catching public transport is 1, the cost it works out to be about $4 more expensive everyday (using concessions) than for me to ride to work and 2, I live in Wainuiomata and work in Wellington. It take's me around 1/2 an hour to ride to work and about 11/2 - 21/2 hours catching public transport to travel the same distance. I also have children and would have to pay for childcare in the morning is I caught public transport (at least and extra $50 -$100 per week). My wife (she works shift work) and I have both looked into it separately to see is it was possible and affordable and the answer if a big no for us.

After the trouble I have had with keeping other road users off the new (timed) motorcycle parks and having to constantly be taking photos of my bike being parked in different places to stop it being ticketed by over zealous parking wardens These same wardens insist on chalking the side of the tyre so no matter how far you drive the chalk mark won't rub off as you drive.

And as to jrandom comments ("You're still a bunch of tubby whinging scrooges who don't want to pay to take up space in cramped central cities, or sweat a few drops instead of using motor vehicles.") Do you run everywhere and/or always pay for parking?

The bus travel prices are considerably more expensive in Wellingoton than London
"Standard London Bus/Tram Fare is £2.20 per adult
under 16's travel free
£1.30 with Oyster (£4 daily maximum)"
Exchange rate just over 2 to 1 and you can park cheaper as well.

[allycatz]

Signed....blardy council bum wipes

[Nasty]

http://www.wellington.govt.nz/news/d...em.php?id=4281

Statement from the Council Website.

Cheers