Riding your own ride

[smoky]

This thread has become one of opinion not fact. It is a thread where some are making calls from ignorance rather than fact.

Couldn't agree more - it's unfortunate why the thread was started, but lets try to discuss the issue of personal responsibility and collective responsibility with some respect for what happened, and leave the ignorant conjecture alone for now

Having ridden bikes for almost 40 years now and as an ex racer and group rider .....

The only one really who knows for sure whether a move can be made is the rider themselves ......

It is easy to judge incorrectly from a distance ...... Nobody further than 15 metres or so behind can really judge whether there was room or not as they did not have posession of all the variables as above;

The difference between a really good rider and an average rider is huge. What looks extremely risky to an average rider may only be 8/10ths for the very good rider.

What your saying is all good, but; (and these are genuine questions)

If you go for a ride and happen across a few others on their bikes, or even people driving a car - you're right
But when you choose to join up on a group ride - does your responsibility shift just a little - to more of a collective responsibility?

I'm not suggesting we're responsible for others actions, but is there an obligation to adjust to tone it down more in a group?

Two riders going at the same pace, one has the ability to ride like that, the other is way over their ability levels, one is riding responsibly, the other is riding irresponsibly, but they are at the same pace, taking the same corners, taking the same gaps.

If the responsible rider was not riding at that pace, chances are the irresponsible rider wouldn't be either. Would that be a fair statement?

I'm talking for group rides only, other time we should consider who we ride with, or leave our faster riding for when we are alone or with friends we know well enough???

That's how I'm thinking anyway

[Ragingrob]

Straight outta Marketing 303:

Outcomes of being in a group:
•Social Loafing
–Less effort exerted by the individual when in a group, due to deindividuation, and diffusion of responsibility.

•Risky shift
–Groups show willingness to be more risky than individuals

•Decision polarization
–Group decisions tend to polarize towards the side that was originally favoured by members.

•Mob behaviour
–Saliency of norms in unfamiliar situation
–Deindividuation

[smoky]

Straight outta Marketing 303:

Outcomes of being in a group:
•Social Loafing
–Less effort exerted by the individual when in a group, due to deindividuation, and diffusion of responsibility.

•Risky shift
–Groups show willingness to be more risky than individuals

•Decision polarization
–Group decisions tend to polarize towards the side that was originally favoured by members.

•Mob behaviour
–Saliency of norms in unfamiliar situation
–Deindividuation

So what are you saying?

[Ragingrob]

So what are you saying?

That in group rides people tend to become less risk averse than if they riding alone, there is less regard of the norms (less respect of the law), and an individual's responsibility is diluted throughout the group.

So as the thread topic is, it is important to try to close your mind to these things when in a group, and ride your own ride.

[idleidolidyll]

Fair questions and I'll give my honest opinion:

If you go for a ride and happen across a few others on their bikes, or even people driving a car - you're right
But when you choose to join up on a group ride - does your responsibility shift just a little - to more of a collective responsibility?

Your respnsibility is always to make sure that when you overtake, you give plenty of warning and room. Your responsibility is to make sure you do not directly place another rider in danger.
It is not your responsibility to ride at any slower pace just because you are on a group ride.
I ride a very loud bike and people know when I'm there. I usually run up a bit close a few times to let them know I'm likley to overtake and then I overtake on the outside going quite wide and making sure they have room.
No point telling me to overtake on the straights only as I ride a 60HP bike and it's physically impossible most of the time when amongst sport bikes.

I'm not suggesting we're responsible for others actions, but is there an obligation to adjust to tone it down more in a group?

No, I don't believe there is. However, it is a damn good idea for the organiser or someone who is a good speaker to make it clear at the start that there are many levels of skill and nobody should ride beyond their comfort zone just to keep up or to prove something.

Two riders going at the same pace, one has the ability to ride like that, the other is way over their ability levels, one is riding responsibly, the other is riding irresponsibly, but they are at the same pace, taking the same corners, taking the same gaps.

Personal responsibility. The rider within his skill and reaction levels does not have a responsibility for the other rider. If that were the case we would always ride at 50kph when with learners etc.
Ditto for the old "ride to the conditions" thing. On NZ roads the use of pea gravel the same colour as the road itself means that you never really know when you might have a moment. Anyone who's ridden a while will tell you that regardless of speed, you can crash on that stuff at any time.
If we therefore extend the definition of "ride to the conditions" to the reality of our terrible road maintenance crews standard of workmanship; we'd all be riding at 50kph or less everywhere regardless of the posted speed limit.

If the responsible rider was not riding at that pace, chances are the irresponsible rider wouldn't be either. Would that be a fair statement?

No, the other rider might be deliberately looking to follow fast riders to push their limits. Even by themselves they might be pushing the limit of their ability.
Part of the reality of a group ride is to follow the faster riders and learn their lines, braking technique etc. Again, the responsibility is always on the rider themself.

I'm talking for group rides only, other time we should consider who we ride with, or leave our faster riding for when we are alone or with friends we know well enough???

It is a good idea to ride 'fast' only when you are fairly sure you won't cause an accident to others due to mixed skill levels.
However, on almost every ride I've been on, the skill levels of the riders are sorted out quickly by the distance between them.
BTW: i hate that word 'fast'. Often fast does not mean exceeding the speed limit, it may mean relative to other riders or to the speed at which others take the same corner etc. I prefer "quick" or "quickly".

I bought the single cylinder motard to go fast slowly, I'm not at all interested in trying to break the double ton etc. My bike is not fast but it can be quick.

[Katman]

People need to ask themselves - "Do I care whether everyone gets home safely from a ride that I have been part of"?

If the answer is "no, I don't care" then I'd suggest that person needs to take a good hard look at their morals.

If the answer is "yes" than the person should next ask themselves "am I prepared to do what I can to try to ensure that everyone gets home safely".

It then becomes a question of what you're prepared to do.

[idleidolidyll]

That's bullshit Katman.

Trying to lay a guilt trip based on your own beliefs is a fallacy argument.
In any school of rhetoric, that would be labelled as the argument of the uninformed or a cowards argument: someone who has no definitive basis for argument and who has run out of facts looking to end it based on playing silly word games.

You've just lost all my respect.

We are all responsible for our own actions. Do you rant on at TV4 for screening Top Gear?

[idleidolidyll]

To be specific Katman, you have committed the following fallacy arguments:

Appeal to Emotions: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/emotiona.html
Poisoning the Well: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/poiswell.html
Begging the Question: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/qbanalog.html

your fallacy argument also falls short in many more ways but this is enough to point out the complete idiocy of the attempt to end the argument based on the false argument you just posted.

In short, the fact that I may ride quickly on a group ride does not mean that I do not care for the welfare of the other riders.

[mozzee]

I didn't really want to get involved in this thread...I think Carver started it for the right reasons...

I was there on Saturday, so I thought I would add my 2 cents worth...

I think every rider is responsible for their own actions. No one on Saturday was responsible for what happened. Accidents happen. Everyone on this group ride was capable of making their own decisions.

When I drive car rally's we have to sign a waiver before we start saying that we understand there are risks involved and that nobody else, including the organiser, is responsible for our actions. Perhaps, if this is going to become an issue, we could implement this sort of thing for future group rides, to avoid arguments like this ensuing.

There is no way anyone can know what everyone elses skill levels are, what their understanding and knowledge is of their bike, of riding, the roads etc.

It can therefore only be the responsibility of the rider themselves.

[Katman]

In short, the fact that I may ride quickly on a group ride does not mean that I do not care for the welfare of the other riders.

If you know that someone is overstepping their ability in an effort to keep up with you and you do nothing about it I would suggest that shows very little concern for the welfare of that other person.

[aff-man]

People need to ask themselves - "Do I care whether everyone gets home safely from a ride that I have been part of"?

If the answer is "no, I don't care" then I'd suggest that person needs to take a good hard look at their morals.

If the answer is "yes" than the person should next ask themselves "am I prepared to do what I can to try to ensure that everyone gets home safely".

It then becomes a question of what you're prepared to do.

Trying to reason out what you've just said and can't quite grasp the concept? You're basically saying people should NOT ride their own rides but in fact spend their time worrying if a less experienced rider can't "keep it in their pants".

What I am prepared to do is go on a ride, ride TO MY abilities, not endanger those around me with erratic undisiplined riding and not goad people into trying to ride beyond their abilities.

It is on me to do these things and if I do and nothing unforseen happens then I should have a marvelously enjoyable day and get home safe..

[idleidolidyll]

If they are behind me, how would I know they are exceeding their ability?

You are still offering fallacy instead of reasoned debate. Appeals to emotion are almost always fallacy.

You are doing a really good job of making a fool of yourself

[smoky]

That in group rides people tend to become less risk averse than if they riding alone, there is less regard of the norms (less respect of the law), and an individual's responsibility is diluted throughout the group.

I actually find that group rides are more restrained than when I go out with a couple of mates, or by myself?

[Ixion]

If they are behind me, how would I know they are exceeding their ability?

You are still offering fallacy instead of reasoned debate. Appeals to emotion are almost always fallacy.

You are doing a really good job of making a fool of yourself

And if he be in front of you, what can you do about it ? Try to overtake him to warn him that he's riding too fast. Just making things worse, isn't it. Flash your headlamps - he's hardly likely to understand . And if an experienced rider *is* riding beyond his limits, odds are the first anyone but he will know of it, is when he's headed for the ditch.

[smoky]

People need to ask themselves - "Do I care whether everyone gets home safely from a ride that I have been part of"?
If the answer is "yes" than the person should next ask themselves "am I prepared to do what I can to try to ensure that everyone gets home safely".

It then becomes a question of what you're prepared to do.

I don't think katman's question is invalid!
I know most on this thread are expressing the opposite - but I think it's a question we should be asking.

I'm not saying we have to assess the riding skills of any other rider - as pointed out, that's not practical; but I do think the we have opted to be part of a collective, in a very loose form, (KB) by reading the post and turning up for a ride - we should at lest consider what responsibilities that brings with it! Shouldn't we?

It is not your responsibility to ride at any slower pace just because you are on a group ride.

Personal responsibility. The rider within his skill and reaction levels does not have a responsibility for the other rider. If that were the case we would always ride at 50kph when with learners etc.

..the other rider might be deliberately looking to follow fast riders to push their limits. Even by themselves they might be pushing the limit of their ability.
Part of the reality of a group ride is to follow the faster riders and learn their lines, braking technique etc. Again, the responsibility is always on the rider themself.

I guess I am use to being some one others tend to (I hesitate to use the expression) 'look up to'. I realise my behavior, not talking about KB, does influence others, weather I like it or not. I have learnt to watch how much I drink around my nephews and nieces setting a good example, Dial down my driving while my son or nephews and are in the car - I don't want them thinking they should drive like I do - I care about them. I go fishing with a couple of others - have been known to take a few risks, but when I go with a larger organised group I don't - why, because it stresses people, makes others uncomfortable, I know what I can do - but wouldn't want others to take risks they may not be prepared for.
I guess I carry that kind of social responsibility with me when I go out riding.

BTW: i hate that word 'fast'. Often fast does not mean exceeding the speed limit, it may mean relative to other riders or to the speed at which others take the same corner etc. I prefer "quick" or "quickly".

You're right - 'fast' can be any speed depending on the road conditions, bike, and other factors, but we all know what I mean