Shut CYF down

[Usarka]

How does this shit keep going ahead when NO ONE agrees with it???

Because as kiwis we are amongst the most apathetic people on the planet.

And even when a citizens initated referendum gets passed the government has the power to simply say "bollox" and ignore it anyway. As may or may not be shown soon.

Add capital gains tax to the list too ya greedy baby booming bastards.

[MSTRS:Me]

...

Where the hell do kids nowadays get to experience that sort of thing.

At a nice safe place like Outdoor Pursuits, where the fully trained adults will ensure nothing bad happens to their charges...

[PirateJafa]

At a nice safe place like Outdoor Pursuits, where the fully trained adults will ensure nothing bad happens to their charges...

Good way to teach them they don't have to take any responsibility or take any care for themselves or their mates.

Nearly as bad as the video-game mentality a lot of kids have (who now are worryingly getting driver's licenses), that they can just hit "Reset" if they fook up.

[MSTRS:Me]

.Yes care for you kids, yes teach them boundaries, yes teach them about stranger danger, but most importantly, yes, let them grow up to learn a few of lifes lessons along the way.

Teach all you like, but you are right...at some point kids have to learn for themselves. That does involve *some* risk.

Good way to teach them they don't have to take any responsibility or take any care for themselves or their mates.

Nearly as bad as the video-game mentality a lot of kids have (who now are worryingly getting driver's licenses), that they can just hit "Reset" if they fook up.

I'm not sure you got my point

[Ixion]

At a nice safe place like Outdoor Pursuits, where the fully trained adults will ensure nothing bad happens to their charges...

I think perhaps you a re being ironical But, in case you are not, and for the benefit of those who may agree with the statement as it stands, may I say is that point is kids (boys anyway) NEED bad things to happen to them.

Not real life destroying bad. But bad enough to scare them badly. Boys need to be frightened. That's how boundaries are set.

When my mates and I got lost in the bush overnight when I was eight (I said seven, but on reflection it must have been eight), I was as scared as anything. Being lost in the bush at night was really frightening . I'm sure the rest were too, even though none of us would ever have admitted it.

It was summer and warm so we weren't really in any danger. And we already knew enough bushcraft to know not to wander around in the dark; and how to make up a bivvy. But it was still very scary for an eight year old.

I learned a LOT of lessons from it. Lessons which stuck, because I was SCARED. Scared is what sends the message "I'm not going to do that again". Scared shows that there are consequences. Scared shows that you are not invulnerable. Kids NEED to be scared.

[MSTRS:Me]

I think perhaps you are being ironical ...

Spot the intelligentia...
My point was there are hurty things everywhere. No amount of protection is gunna save you from all of them. And to think otherwise is dangerous.
The lesson is - allow kids to be exposed to, and learn to manage, the hurty things from a young(ish) age, before the dice gets too loaded.

[slowpoke]

Spot the intelligentia...
My point was there are hurty things everywhere. No amount of protection is gunna save you from all of them. And to think otherwise is dangerous.
The lesson is - allow kids to be exposed to, and learn to manage, the hurty things from a young(ish) age, before the dice gets too loaded.

But this and several other posts are just generalised concepts.

In general every psychologist and right thinking parent will agree with you......but exactly what dangers you allow kids to be exposed to is open to huge debate. How young is too young to be unsupervised? Where is it OK to leave them unsupervised? Who is capable of supervising? Etc etc, and that's what the crux of the debate is about. One persons acceptable risk is another persons irresponsibility and a beureaucratic nightmare.

But the question remains: should CYFS be shut down?

It may be inefficient, cumbersome and hamstrung by protocol's that have to be followed but I still think something is better than nothing. Because nothing is the only alternative. You can restructure, rename, rebuild it all you like but it's just gonna be CYFS by another name.

Not forgetting amongst all the debate that you are never going to see any success stories coming out of the media. You are never going to hear stories of something approaching normality being restored to lives on the brink. To judge a service by the media sensations is as just as wrong as sticking our heads in the sand and saying everything is OK.

[James Deuce]

But the question remains: should CYFS be shut down?

Yes. It does nothing. It has been hijacked by idealogues. It costs us millions every day and kids still live in deadly danger on a daily basis, because the alternative is unacceptable to an organisation who would rather leave children with family members who provide them with nothing. This is where our child abuse stats are coming from, nowhere else. Remove the children, punish the caregivers. Stop offering increased benefits and parenting lessons to people who simply don't care, at all, and never will, and somehow manage to hide behind a cultural veil of underprivilege.

[Winston001]

Where the hell do kids nowadays get to experience that sort of thing.

Scouts.

My 14yr son has been a scout for three years, been to leadership courses, heaps of camps in the bush, he loves it. Night rides on bicycles, night patrols in forestry and sand dunes, these kids simply have a lot of fun.

I grew up on a farm and had the same independent childhood many here describe. But now I live in a city as do most kiwis, and the dangers are different. I have argued against cotton-wool parenting with my wife who is highly risk-averse but I think we've succeeded overall.

I still could not let my 4yr old be unsupervised, nor could I place that responsibility on a 9yr old. Doesn't make me right - its simply my judgement.

[Badjelly]

...Remove the children, punish the caregivers....

Who's going to do that?

[James Deuce]

CYF aren't, so don't start that.

The Courts, The Police, Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, you know, the people who used to do this stuff.

[MSTRS:Me]

Serious question here...how many of the hated social workers actually have 'successfully' reared children of their own, compared with how many are under-30, childless products of PC courses to 'train' them in the black arts?

[James Deuce]

Bear in mind that I don't "hate" them as such, they are given an impossible task to perform with little resource at the pointy end of the job. It's a community wide issue that needs to be dealt with on an inclusive community-wide basis, not by a Government Dept with super powers that are selectively applied.

[Winston001]

Yes. It does nothing. It has been hijacked by idealogues. It costs us millions every day and kids still live in deadly danger on a daily basis, because the alternative is unacceptable to an organisation who would rather leave children with family members who provide them with nothing. This is where our child abuse stats are coming from, nowhere else. Remove the children, punish the caregivers. Stop offering increased benefits and parenting lessons to people who simply don't care, at all, and never will, and somehow manage to hide behind a cultural veil of underprivilege.

Ok James, you feel passionate about this and are clearly frustrated by a government agency which you believe isn't working.

1. What would you replace the Child, Youth and Family Service with?

2. Australia removed children in the 1960s. It's now called "The Stolen Generation" has cost Australia tens of millions of dollars, court cases, public enquiries. On top of that the children became bewildered adults who lost their parents, wider family, and their culture.

All of which happened with the best of intentions. How would you avoid these problems?

[Marmoot]

I still could not let my 4yr old be unsupervised, nor could I place that responsibility on a 9yr old. Doesn't make me right - its simply my judgement.

And indeed every parent need to have your attitude!

But when the state think it can dictate, regulate, and commit inquisition on such familial norm then it violates the sanctity of family.
The solution should be on education, not on prohibition. In here CYF has failed greatly. It failed us as society, it failed us in common sense, it failed us in being human. It puts no distinction between us and cows.