Shut CYF down

[Marmoot]

The failure of "parents, society, us" is what necessitated CYFS (or something similar) in the first place. None of the aforementioned are in a better position to rectify the shortcomings now than when CYFS was created.

Most people in here advocates better driver training than more speed cameras. Yes? Exactly, my thoughts too. Same with parenting.

[Finn]

They've failed. Serious Child Abuse is rising and they pull stuff like this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2546...-alone-in-park

We're in a recession. We can't afford a state-funded Gestapo and community based informants at the moment.

They're listening James... Not exactly what we need but it's a good start in the right direction.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10581616

[Badjelly]

They're listening James... Not exactly what we need but it's a good start in the right direction...

I don't see how leaving the organisation in place, with the same mandate and the same attitudes, but cutting its numbers is a step in the right direction.

[Lissa]

Well concerning James's first post, that puts the breaks on my plans on letting my kids be a little more independent.

I was going to let my 10 and 8 year walk to the park around the corner from me for a little play by themselves but now I wont. I let my 8 year old walk to the dairy on her own the other day because she wanted to show me she could do it but I watched her the whole way in the car and waited for her at the dairy to take her home.

Not sure what NZ is coming to at the moment. My children will continue to be bubble wrapped because I dont want to be punished for letting them do anything on their own.

So are children allowed to walk or bike to school on their own? Are kids under 14 allowed to have a paper round? I was biking to school from the age of 5. From the age of nine I was walking to the diary on my own and playing in the fields with my friends down the road from home on my own.

Its a crock of shit (pardon the language). I dont want to be parenting with guilt and fear. Its important that my children be allowed to do what I did as a child when I feel they are ready for the responsibility.

[Winston001]

Lissa, I don't think you have anything to worry about. The article which started this thread is about an over-reaction by a parent who must have some sort of anger/authority problem.

The fact is - CYF checked - nothing wrong, end. Why any sensible person thinks checking up on the safety of two children is a bad thing is beyond me.

And as Trudes says above, expecting members of the community to check is unreasonable. You run the risk of getting a poke in the nose. How often on these forums do people rant about "noseyparkers" and people minding their own business??

Yes young children are allowed to walk/bike to school. It is at a regular time of day and parents keep an eye out - I know I do. There are walking school bus groups for this purpose.

[JMemonic]

At 5 I was catching a bus unsupervised from Oaklands to town to go to school everyday. So were a lot of my peers.

At 8, I was cooking meals for my family 5 days a week solo and unsupervised as my mother worked nights.

At 10 years old I was cycling to school unsupervised from Oaklands to Yalhurst, I also used to cycle everywhere I needed to go.

We (all the kids in the neighbourhood) would gather at the park or pool in the summer months with no adult supervision, mind you we knew our neighbours so there was always numbers around.

We knew to look out for one and other, we knew there were sicko's around, sure we got grazed knees and broken bones but no one died as we knew we were responsible for ourselves.

Sorry but imho CYS are doing a piss poor job, there are no more sicko's around just more sensationalist media coverage, back then it was swept under the rug and dealt with in private now there are huge exposes about every kiddy fiddler making it seem like there is one in every park or street corner.

As for kids getting killed and CYF's record of prevention there well lets not get me started.

[James Deuce]

Lissa, I don't think you have anything to worry about. The article which started this thread is about an over-reaction by a parent who must have some sort of anger/authority problem.

The fact is - CYF checked - nothing wrong, end. Why any sensible person thinks checking up on the safety of two children is a bad thing is beyond me.

And as Trudes says above, expecting members of the community to check is unreasonable. You run the risk of getting a poke in the nose. How often on these forums do people rant about "noseyparkers" and people minding their own business??

Yes young children are allowed to walk/bike to school. It is at a regular time of day and parents keep an eye out - I know I do. There are walking school bus groups for this purpose.

The CYF investigation does not end with a fullstop. I am fully aware that you will no doubt regard the following as "fantasy", however I have seen how the process works. Any other "breach" for these parents will result in prosecution.

The family's Doctor, the School and pre-school will now be required to present any and all data requested by CYF, and are under a legal obligation to present data to CYF for review if it might indicate abuse. Child turns up to school with bruises on legs on Monday and the now twitchy teacher reports it to their friendly CYF agent, and the parents will be prosecuted. It does not matter if the bruises were gained playing soccer, tripping down the stairs, or actually being beaten by the parents, it will be dealt with as an assault. If the teacher doesn't report it and another teacher does, the child's normal teacher will be in trouble as well. Agin, if you think these things don't happen then think again.

Without going into details, I have been involved in the process of having children removed from their parents, thanks to witnessing nothing more than the robust telling off of a child for turning its prematurely born sibling's incubator off by mistake. The nurses are required by law, at the risk of losing their registration and prosecution to report any incident of abuse. Because the definition of abuse is so broad, one person's telling off is another's abuse. The way CYF behaved was appalling, given that the child in the incubator was at death's door and the parents were naturally very upset. I was there because I was a customer of the health service too.

The investigation is not benign. It does not end with the case in point.

It is not "unacceptable" to ask kids if they need help. It is not "unaacceptable" to ask a member of the community if they need help.

My wife has a broken foot. I wrote letters to the teachers yesterday to request that the boys were delivered to the office, so that they could be picked up early, due to prearranged after school activity. Not only did they refuse to do that, no one went to go and get the kids from their respective rooms and left her walking 400 metres on a broken foot to pick them up from their classroom. None of the other parents around offered to get them either.

I'm sick to death of hearing the word community. As soon as anyone REALLY needs help, the "community" runs for the hills. Very rarely, outstanding individuals will actually do something to help others, and they are usually the last people you would expect.

I'm disappointed that the default setting for Kiwis is to ignore people who need help in preference to dobbing them in to an organisation who can only apply the law (usually poorly written law in reference to family interaction) in strictly defined terms. Government departments are not there to help you.

[Ixion]

But this and several other posts are just generalised concepts.

In general every psychologist and right thinking parent will agree with you......but exactly what dangers you allow kids to be exposed to is open to huge debate. How young is too young to be unsupervised? Where is it OK to leave them unsupervised? Who is capable of supervising? Etc etc, and that's what the crux of the debate is about. One persons acceptable risk is another persons irresponsibility and a beureaucratic nightmare.

Dude, we, collectively have about a million years experience at determining those questions.

As a kid we did all the things kids nowadays are forbidden to do. I don't recall ANY kid coming to serious harm. A couple of broken bones (street cred!). Lots and lots of bruises and grazes (when do you EVER see a boy with a grazed knee now - ours were all permanently mercurochrome).Each one a lesson learned. Nothing serious. Which suggests that the collective wisdom pretty much got it right. We survived, intact. More so in fact than todays youff.

The problem is the insistence of a bureaucracy that that collective wisdom must be ignored an replaced by the dictates of a bureaucratic machine.

But the question remains: should CYFS be shut down?

Yes.

It may be inefficient, cumbersome and hamstrung by protocol's that have to be followed but I still think something is better than nothing. Because nothing is the only alternative. You can restructure, rename, rebuild it all you like but it's just gonna be CYFS by another name.

No it's not. We had a perfectly good alternative before CYS was invented and proceeded to rubbish said alternative. It was called Gran. Kuia. Plunket. Old Mrs Wilson who's reared seven of the little scallywags. The Mothers Union. And "well, when I was a kid my Mum .. " . And all their associated and related networks and centuries old accumulated wisdom

The wisdom is still out there. Just read this thread! The problem is the insistence by bureaucrats that nothing is acceptable unles sit comes from some office sitting "expert"

Abolish CYS. Use the money to fund things that work . Like Plunket. Plunket did more for kids every month than CYS has done in the whole of its existence. (Yes I know Plunket technically still exists - a fund starved ridiculed shadow of what it was)

[Genestho]

Dude, we, collectively have about a million years experience at determining those questions.

As a kid we did all the things kids nowadays are forbidden to do. I don't recall ANY kid coming to serious harm. A couple of broken bones (street cred!). Lots and lots of bruises and grazes (when do you EVER see a boy with a grazed knee now - ours were all permanently mercurochrome).Each one a lesson learned. Nothing serious. Which suggests that the collective wisdom pretty much got it right. We survived, intact. More so in fact than todays youff.

The problem is the insistence of a bureaucracy that that collective wisdom must be ignored an replaced by the dictates of a bureaucratic machine.


Yes.



No it's not. We had a perfectly good alternative before CYS was invented and proceeded to rubbish said alternative. It was called Gran. Kuia. Plunket. Old Mrs Wilson who's reared seven of the little scallywags. The Mothers Union. And "well, when I was a kid my Mum .. " . And all their associated and related networks and centuries old accumulated wisdom

The wisdom is still out there. Just read this thread! The problem is the insistence by bureaucrats that nothing is acceptable unles sit comes from some office sitting "expert"

Abolish CYS. Use the money to fund things that work . Like Plunket. Plunket did more for kids every month than CYS has done in the whole of its existence. (Yes I know Plunket technically still exists - a fund starved ridiculed shadow of what it was)

Well said that man, plunket is community based, helping the community! The plunket line, something I rang quite often for advice!
Just watch out for treasurers of plunket that make off with 200 plus grand, as she did here!!!!!!!!

[Ocean1]

Plunket did more for kids every month than CYS has done in the whole of its existence. (Yes I know Plunket technically still exists - a fund starved ridiculed shadow of what it was)

The plunket line, something I rang quite often for advice!

Yes, internationally recognised as THE state childcare benchmark.

And we scrapped it.

Bring it back, it WORKED.

[davereid]

Yes, internationally recognised as THE state childcare benchmark. And we scrapped it. Bring it back, it WORKED.

Plunket was (is) a wonderful organisation. But it could never be a part of our new government model.

Plunket assumed people were rational, that the vast majority wanted the best for their kids, and that with just a little community based support they could bring up their kids.

CYFS on the other hand assumes that every bruise needs investigation. That people are basically irrational, and only a government department with big teeth can kick people into line.


The difference is not us, or our kids, its our Government. We have allowed it to assume a role of "we decide, you obey, no carrot, here is the stick."

It may be CYFS, a building permit, or something as simple as your drivers licence or car rego.

The rules have just become more (needlessly) complicated, the enforcement and penalties more draconian, and the outcomes un-improved.

Kiwis seem to love it, secret S&M freaks everywhere, enjoying making, and playing with rues and punishments.

Just read the threads - we should ban this, stop that, why arent the g'mint paying, its not fair....

[Finn]

I don't see how leaving the organisation in place, with the same mandate and the same attitudes, but cutting its numbers is a step in the right direction.

Any number cuts in Government is a good thing. Expecting excellence from them is naive.

[Usarka]

I hope cyf (and the bubble-wrappers) watched that "Politcally Incorrect Parenting" show on tv1 tonight. It's on again next week if you missed it.

[Trudes]

Oh my did I laugh! Bought back many memories of childhood where my feet constantly had prickles and stubbed toes and scabed knees from pissing about outside in bare feet and falling out of and off stuff! Shit did we have fun!
That programme was great, I hope a lot of PC over protective parents watch and take some note. Next weeks one looks interesting too "if your kids are fat it's because of what YOU are feeding them"....

[Dean]

cyfs dont deal with domestic violence properly, i remember when they came over in their suits and clipboards investigating the house, me, my family. When they take someone away from their family it isnt your fault it is only because you are a victim of violence, which i dont get. Because they dont take out the person who casuses the problem/violence. Plus side is you could get moved to a rich family, and you get a nice motorcycle and whatnot.