Legal aid for bike crash - how?

[CookMySock]

The government legislation website is an incredibly good reference allowing quick and easy access to the main body of law itself, I just feel that it isn't really enough on its own for anyone who doesn't have training or a peculiar interest in it to follow.

This is a good use for the wiki. Link various threads, tags, and articles from the forum to the wiki, and from there index to relevant sections of the legislation.

Steve

[jono035]

This is a good use for the wiki. Link various threads, tags, and articles from the forum to the wiki, and from there index to relevant sections of the legislation.

Steve

Yeah, that could be quite good for answering the constantly recurring questions to be sure.

[p.dath]

This is a good use for the wiki. Link various threads, tags, and articles from the forum to the wiki, and from there index to relevant sections of the legislation.

Steve

That is such a good idea! We could also add things about comment questions - can you legally lane split, pass on the left, ride in bus lanes, etc.

[Winston001]

Edit: The government legislation website is an incredibly good reference allowing quick and easy access to the main body of law itself, I just feel that it isn't really enough on its own for anyone who doesn't have training or a peculiar interest in it to follow. There are enough minefields in the law itself (different subsections cross-applying to the same circumstance or other specific regulations overriding general ones with no transparency to the process) that self-access may not even necessarily be a good thing, as a faulty understanding of the law is probably more dangerous than no understanding. It doesn't seem right to me that the default method for gaining knowledge or legal opinion on a situation is to pay for it, this is something that should be more open to every citizen.

LOL your edit answered what I was going to say.

The fact is knowledge requires understanding and research. If I wanted to put an RSJ across my gargre lintel I'd either ask you - or I could fossick around researching I beams, L beams, box sections etc. Then there are the different strengths, thickness, lengths, plus coefficent of expansion plus maybe aluminium instead of steel, or whether an old cast-iron beam I found at the tip would do the job........or timber instead.....

I don't expect there to be one engineering book or website which holds all that info in layman's language with answers at a glance.

Similarly if you want to understand prostrate cancer, you will have to read a lot of information and know human physiology to gain a real understanding. And any cancer by itself is a complex subject and certainly isn't explicable in everyday language.

Same goes for computers......

We live in a complex age and specialisation is the rule because generalists cannot assimilate all of the knowledge available. So if you want to understand the law at a deeper level you either research it or employ a lawyer to do that for you.

[breakaway]

We live in a complex age and specialisation is the rule because generalists cannot assimilate all of the knowledge available. So if you want to understand the law at a deeper level you either research it or employ a lawyer to do that for you.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

However, it seems real sad that in this case, they gave this rider a ticket that's total bullshit (passing on the left - however it says in the road code you can pass on the left when all cars are stationary, as shown here), then withdrew it, and then hand delivered (scare tactics?) a letter that says he's still at fault.

That's fucked up.

[jono035]

LOL your edit answered what I was going to say.

The fact is knowledge requires understanding and research. If I wanted to put an RSJ across my gargre lintel I'd either ask you - or I could fossick around researching I beams, L beams, box sections etc. Then there are the different strengths, thickness, lengths, plus coefficent of expansion plus maybe aluminium instead of steel, or whether an old cast-iron beam I found at the tip would do the job........or timber instead.....

I don't expect there to be one engineering book or website which holds all that info in layman's language with answers at a glance.

Similarly if you want to understand prostrate cancer, you will have to read a lot of information and know human physiology to gain a real understanding. And any cancer by itself is a complex subject and certainly isn't explicable in everyday language.

Same goes for computers......

We live in a complex age and specialisation is the rule because generalists cannot assimilate all of the knowledge available. So if you want to understand the law at a deeper level you either research it or employ a lawyer to do that for you.

Well for a start I'm an Electrical and Electronics Engineer, so it's unlikely I'd be able to help with the RSJ (Edit: Although that's what the easier to follow building codes and guidelines are for. I don't know how to design a house but I can follow other peoples info to put in a new doorway or knock out a wall. I can tell you how to replace an appliance plug)

We are talking about laws here which are a man made construct. They can be made simpler or resources can be provided to allow a person to understand them easier.

We don't need to know why they are or how to write new laws, we just need to know in plain language terms (cutting through the boilerplate verbosity) what the laws, as written, mean.

In terms of your analogy this is more akin to me providing you with an in depth explanation of how it works and what it is capable of in laymans terms. This is possible without me providing the actual info used to design the thing which is also easier than explaining how the various design decisions were made.

I don't think the situations are all that similar but then again things always look easier from the outside.

[Patrick]

OI...

Ticket has been cancelled.

He is not at fault. Car door opener caused the crash.

Insurers need to sort out their part now, coz that is what the big premiums are paid for....

[Winston001]

OI...

Ticket has been cancelled.

He is not at fault. Car door opener caused the crash.

Insurers need to sort out their part now, coz that is what the big premiums are paid for....

Yeah Patrick but I'm a bit concerned that's only because it was downgraded to a "warning". The implication is the motorcyclist is still in the wrong.

[Patrick]

Yeah Patrick but I'm a bit concerned that's only because it was downgraded to a "warning". The implication is the motorcyclist is still in the wrong.

Patience, grasshopper........

[Phurrball]

(snip)He is not at fault. Car door opener caused the crash.

Insurers need to sort out their part now, coz that is what the big premiums are paid for....

I'd suggest that as a next step - put the information to the insurer of the other party in detail.

They can make a decision, but if it is disputed, it'll be off to the Disputes Tribunal.

The DT seem to decide things on 'big-picture fairness' rather than taking a legalistic approach. The adjudicators aren't legally qualified, but their decisions have the same binding effect as a District Court decision. No lawyers are allowed, but you can take support people in. I've been there after a bike crash, and the process worked for me.

I'd be very, very surprised if it came to the DT and they found the rider at fault.

Yeah Patrick but I'm a bit concerned that's only because it was downgraded to a "warning". The implication is the motorcyclist is still in the wrong.

Luckily the Disputes Tribunal have an equitable jurisdiction then eh

The Police seem a bit confused in their approach and have contradicted themselves in written correspondence. It's not a good look.

This may yet drag on for a bit, but the rider concerned is putting up the good fight in a calm and reasonable manner.

Justice ought to prevail.

On the off topic - there's PLENTY of commentary on all areas of law, from pamphlets in community law centres and CABs, to more academic commentaries in general and law libraries.

Anyone seeking more scholarly commentary could happily trundle into a university law library for a look. They are incredibly well resourced and you really only miss the breadth and quality of material they provide when your studies end

If you're a out-of-faculty-same-university student, you can even borrow the stuff!

[Patrick]

The Police seem a bit confused in their approach and have contradicted themselves in written correspondence. It's not a good look.

This may yet drag on for a bit, but the rider concerned is putting up the good fight in a calm and reasonable manner.

Justice ought to prevail.

Confused all right... used this as a training scenario and got varied results. But looking into it more, she is clearly the cause.

Stay calm and collected and it will be sorted shortly I guess. Throwing toys just gets ignored or put onto the back burner/too hard basket.

[CookMySock]

I'd suggest that as a next step - put the information to the insurer of the other party in detail.

The insurer isn't in the business of going out of their way to give away more money. I expect they would just ignore any request, just like I would if they requested money from me. Also, the insurer isn't contractually obliged to hand any person money, except their paid-up client.

The Police seem a bit confused in their approach and have contradicted themselves in written correspondence. It's not a good look.

I do not think they care. Currently, there is no rope around their neck - ala there is nothing that forces them to act, so they can sit on their hands if they choose, at least until the heat begins to rise. It does not look good that it was one of their staff involved, but again, no one knows so the consequences are small to nil.

It does amaze me that they don't just do the right thing and instruct their staff to own up and pay up. Why are they so afraid? Heads don't have to roll over this.. its just a little thing. Heads are more likely to roll if they take more and more deliberate actions to sweep it under the carpet. Weird.


Steve

[Patrick]

It does not look good that it was one of their staff involved, but again, no one knows so the consequences are small to nil.

It does amaze me that they don't just do the right thing and instruct their staff to own up and pay up. Why are they so afraid? Heads don't have to roll over this.. its just a little thing. Heads are more likely to roll if they take more and more deliberate actions to sweep it under the carpet. Weird.


Steve

As has been said earlier, they think that the motorbike is to blame, so why own up/pay up if the bike is in the wrong.... which is what is wrongly believed.....

Until it is clearly pointed out that the bike is not to blame, that is where it sits. But that will change. He is making an appointment to speak with the Senior Sergeant A.S.A.P.

[Winston001]

Confused all right... used this as a training scenario and got varied results. But looking into it more, she is clearly the cause.

Stay calm and collected and it will be sorted shortly I guess. Throwing toys just gets ignored or put onto the back burner/too hard basket.

Yes its an interesting one alright and your training exercise illustrates this is not an easy situation to assess.

There is no doubt the parked driver has a duty to check the road is clear before opening her door. Cyclists are knocked over every day like this.

On the other hand what if the motorcyclist was moving at 30k? She wouldn't see him until far too late.

I'm not suggesting that happened here, just an added point for your scenario.

[CookMySock]

what if the motorcyclist was moving at 30k? She wouldn't see him until far too late.

I admit that would make her checks more difficult, but I suggest it would be no defense.

It IS her responsibility to check the way is clear. If the method she uses to do this does not work, then she should select a new method. There is no clause in that part of legislation for her to be excused because she has taken "reasonable steps."

Having said that, take a look at this blind corner of Rimu and Main streets on this map. http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=-...,0.003444&z=18

If I am heading north on main street and proceeding straight through at around 60km/hr, and I have opposing (blind) traffic turning right onto Rimu street (I have right of way), it is almost impossible for them to begin a turn and get clear of the corner before I am into their passenger door. That is just the nature of that corner.


Steve