4stroke oil

[CookMySock]

As I understand it, the extreme pressure additives (eg tin, phosphorus) are being greatly reduced in car oils as they bugger up modern catalytic converters. These additives come into play where oil film is getting pummelled and you're getting metal to metal contact. These sorts of conditions must occur a lot more frequently than we'd like to think, especially in a stressed out single cylinder dirt bike because these engines do wear out fast.

My understanding is, you can't use extreme pressure additives in wet-clutch applications, because it promotes clutch-slip, wear, and early clutch failure. This is the main difference between car and bike oils.

Apparently it's a common misconception that synthetic oils are somehow more 'slippery' than conventional oil.

LOL. I do not think so. It is easy to con people into buying an oil product on the basis of some machine-trickery.

http://www.astm.org/Standards/D4683.htm This is the ASTM High Temperature Viscosity Protection definitive standard.
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D4172.htm This is the ASTM Wear Comparison definitive standard.
http://www.amsoil.com/a/synthetic-mo...-oil?zo=504006 And this shit is top of the food chain.

My current thinking is a good quality dino oil should (theoretically at least) do the job just as well as synthetic if changed regularly and in engine not being too stressed. I'd much rather have clean dinosaur plankton juice than dirty synthetic in an engine.

You can't really diagnose an engine oil with your eye.

Synthetic seems to be more stable under a wider/harder range of conditions but it's main advantage looks to be is it's ability to retain it's viscosity for a longer time.

Yes, and yes. Synthetics don't readily chop down or oxidise at high temperatures.

I'm less inclined to pay top dollar for oil in my (2t oops sorry rupe) gearbox that gets changed very frequently, but on the other hand I wouldn't even consider using non-synthetic for my premix. 2t lube method is just too crude.

Well, if you can get away with using a top quality trans lube for longer, then you might as well, since it is not being contaminated with combustion byproducts.

Yes, non-synthetic 2T oils are for consumers who break brush-cutter starter cords and can't start their outboard. Try the latest technology Amsoil 2T, if you can find it, if you can afford it.


Steve

[barty5]

what do you use Adam? (WRFracer)

Funny you should ask that if you look at his web site you would say yamalube.
not saying he dose or dosnt.
but years a i remember the aussie V8s use to be labeled up mobil1 etc etc but the in fact ran on valvoline guess they had there reasons for it.

[tommorth]

wasn't aiming to satart any 2t vs 4t debate it been done to death and is a little pointless

everones response seems to be is what you probably already knew buy the best oil you can and change it regularly there is doesn't seem to be any secret and very cheap alternative .

It would be interesting if someone got some elcheapo oil and some decent synthetic and ran to bikes side by side on dynos doing oil changes and regular tear downs to measure wear etc .But its not likely that we will ever hear truthful and unbiased results of such an experiment.

[B0000M]

wasn't aiming to satart any 2t vs 4t debate it been done to death and is a little pointless

everones response seems to be is what you probably already knew buy the best oil you can and change it regularly there is doesn't seem to be any secret and very cheap alternative .

It would be interesting if someone got some elcheapo oil and some decent synthetic and ran to bikes side by side on dynos doing oil changes and regular tear downs to measure wear etc .But its not likely that we will ever hear truthful and unbiased results of such an experiment.

would be awesome, but never accurate - it would be impossible for 1 person to ride 2 bikes evenly, or for 2 people to ride 2 bikes evenly.. unfortunately.

would really make a good experiment though.

perhaps ask el cheapo oil company for sponsorship..?

[tommorth]

if you ran the bikes on a dyno the loading should be identical

maybe I could get sponsered by warehouse oil lol

[mzer]

What oil are you guys using in your bikes? Looking for a good cheap one, change it regulaly so doesn't need to be top of the range.

Don't want this to turn in to a 2t vs 4t thread it's boring

Firstly: The most important thing is viscosity. Most big four strokes seem to use 10W-40 these days. For those who don't know; W means "Winter" and is a measure of the cold cranking pumping performance of the oil, ie the lower the W number the lower the temperature at which it will flow and the faster it wil get around your engine. It appears that most manufacturers say to use 10W or higher (ie not 5W or 0W) as the the lower W number oils can shear down resulting in a loss of viscosity. Oil shearing is mainly caused by the gearbox cutting up the VI improvers. The "non-W" number, eg 40, is simply a measure of the oil viscosity at 100 degC. This is pretty close to the temperature that engine oil will see in the crankcase. Did you know that an SAE 50 oil has the same viscosity as SAE 90 oil at 100 degC?

Secondly: look for the correct specification: ie API SG, JASO MA etc. Many manufacturers specify API SG as some oils with SH and higher API specs use friction modifiers, which improve car fuel consumption. Its the friction modifiers that can cause grief for wet clutchs. JASO MA has a wet clutch test so look out for this spec.

Thirdly: buy from an oil manufacturer you trust.

Forthly: Synthetics offer some real advantages, but there are synthetics and then there are synthetics, ie buy from a manufacturer you trust.

[B0000M]

i dont know anyone rich enough to buy 2 bikes and enough dyno time just to long term dyno them.............

[WRFracer]

what do you use Adam? (WRFracer)

Funny you should ask that if you look at his web site you would say yamalube.
not saying he dose or dosnt.
but years a i remember the aussie V8s use to be labeled up mobil1 etc etc but the in fact ran on valvoline guess they had there reasons for it.

I do use Yamalube its good shit, but then yes I am biased.
I've never had a Yamaha blow up while using it, but of course it is a Yamaha, once again I'm being biased.

But seriously before that I used to get hooked up with Motul (great oil but costly).
Before that I was buying and using Silkolene, just because thats what my dealer at the time stocked, again a good oil.
But I've always used the top of the line oil that a brand makes.
Such as when I was running a 2-banger if I had run out of Yamalube I would call into the local Servo & pick up some Castrol TTS worked fine, but I would never run standard Castrol 2stroke oil designed for my chainsaw or lawnmower.
Same as I wouldnt put Yamalube's designed for outboard dingy motors engine oil in my YZ450f.

[mzer]

hopefully this may answer your question cut and pated direct form oils web site.
Can I use car engine oil in my motorcycle ?
No, because motorcycle four-stroke engines do not operate under the same conditions as those of cars (higher engine rpm and temperature). The engine lubricant can also be used to lubricate the gearbox and the clutch, which requires a formula with EXTREME-PRESSURE ADDITIVES. On the other hand, passenger vehicle lubricants contain DETERGENT ADDITIVES with a high ash content. In motorcycle engines, these cause deposits to form on the valve train and the piston crowns, which can result in valve burning or piston perforation.

A bit of a correction here:
1. Engine oils do not contain Extreme Pressure (EP) additives - most gearbox oils and all diff oils do contain EP additives
2. Engine oils do contain Anti-Wear additives. These also protect metal surfaces under high loads but have an entirely different chemistry.
3. All engine oils contain detergents, to keep the inside of the engine clean.
4. All engine oils contain dispersants, to heep soot particles that enter the oil dispersed and stop the oil from thickening.
5. Engine oils can have many other additives including: anti-rust, anti-foam, anti-oxidants and Viscosity Index Improvers.
6. The quality of additives, like base oil vary. Buy from a manufacturer you trust.
7. Adding after-market additives can interfer with engine oil additives. Spend the extra money on the engine oil you buy, not after market additives.

[Quasievil]

but years a i remember the aussie V8s use to be labeled up mobil1 etc etc but the in fact ran on valvoline guess they had there reasons for it.

Who told you that horse shit ?

[barty5]

A bit of a correction here:
1. Engine oils do not contain Extreme Pressure (EP) additives - most gearbox oils and all diff oils do contain EP additives
2. Engine oils do contain Anti-Wear additives. These also protect metal surfaces under high loads but have an entirely different chemistry.
3. All engine oils contain detergents, to keep the inside of the engine clean.
4. All engine oils contain dispersants, to heep soot particles that enter the oil dispersed and stop the oil from thickening.
5. Engine oils can have many other additives including: anti-rust, anti-foam, anti-oxidants and Viscosity Index Improvers.
6. The quality of additives, like base oil vary. Buy from a manufacturer you trust.
7. Adding after-market additives can interfer with engine oil additives. Spend the extra money on the engine oil you buy, not after market additives.

Best you contact Elfoils then and let them know this

http://www.elf.co.nz/index.php/contacts/

After all it was cut direct from their web site you would think they know what their doing???

[barty5]

Who told you that horse shit ?

cant remember of hand was years ago back when brocky was racin but he had worked on one of the teams.

[CookMySock]

After all it was cut direct from their web site you would think they know what their doing???

Cough, c'mon, the web is littered with all sorts of hearsay, probably mine included.

You would be far better served to take your citations from an educational, research, or standards site, than an oil wholesaler.

edit: car engine oils do contain some friction modifiers - thats why they can't be used in bikes with wet clutch systems.
Quality engine oils don't have an extensive VI improver package, because the base stock is naturally viscosity-stable.

Steve

[Quasievil]

cant remember of hand was years ago back when brocky was racin but he had worked on one of the teams.

i can tell you its not true I can also tell you the HRT team uses Mobil 1 as does alot of teams, to the point where I have put the oil into a HRT engine personally

[barty5]

Cough, c'mon, the web is littered with all sorts of hearsay, probably mine included.

You would be far better served to take your citations from an educational, research, or standards site, than an oil wholesaler.

edit: car engine oils do contain some friction modifiers - thats why they can't be used in bikes with wet clutch systems.
Quality engine oils don't have an extensive VI improver package, because the base stock is naturally viscosity-stable.

Steve

properly ture

latest rmmour thats around in oils is that some companies that are stating their oils are SM rated which in fact are not. There where 4 places that made the additives for this rating and one was wrecked with the storms in the states a few years back which leaves 3. Now according to what took place in a large meeting it was leaked from these 3 companies that none of these 3 plants sell their product to a certain number of companies (oil manufactures) that state their product is SM rated which it cant be with out it.
Comes back again to do always believe what you read on the packet and be very careful of cheaper oils what ever you use them for. Sorry no i wasn't given the brand names but they are sold here in NZ.