Instilling a sense of conscience.

**Katman** · 21st July 2009, 12:56

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

Thats a fantasy. What person in their right mind would select opposing traffic as a target, rather than a bird?

So what if that bird smacks straight into your helmet? Don't you think hitting a rather solid object like a hawk at 200+kph might stun you momentarily?

You'd be lucky if it didn't knock you out cold.

**Mikkel** · 21st July 2009, 12:56

Originally Posted by Max Preload

The way I see it, far more people impose perceived risks on other road users through their own incompetence rather than the flouting of mere traffic rules. We have the current driver licensing regime to thank for that - people aren't actually taught to drive & ride - they're taught to pass a couple of ridiculously simple tests then let loose on the roads for the next 60 years. Fan-fucking-tastic.

That is the very crux of all NZs traffic problems.

And indeed, how can you expect Joe Public to take motoring seriously when the establishment doesn't?

Mind, no matter how good you make the system there will always be those who feel a need to push the envelope at all times and there will always be the idiots who don't give a shit about their fellows.

**avgas** · 21st July 2009, 12:58

Originally Posted by T.G.W

Yea but then there's the younguns that don't know about counter steering and have a hangover about breaking, having come straight from a pushbike to a Motorbike, surely that has to help? Other than that, they'll continue to do it old school, and crash and learn (if they get up again that is)

Very true - however you would be supprise about the misconception about young-ones not being about to counter steer. Most of the people i have had to blatantly tell ("Im not a good teacher or mentor" lol) have been people over 40.
Counter-steering is a really nice way to say "Not hit the apex of a turn like your in a volvo" which seems to only affect older people, or usually calm, collected, well-off, educated young people. Mabey this is a by-product of the youth "boy racer" and "drifting" movements - I don't know.

It still amazes me the amount of people of all ages who have not taken their bikes and cars "off-road" to learn how to re-act in situations when they "randomly occur". This can not be taught in a class - you have to feel the learn sadly. The consequences of not knowing this - and relying on your road skills is fatal.

Imagine if there was a training school to paint? Where will the intuition and life-science fit into a motorcycle course? You cant tell people these things.

You are a marketing man (aimed at Shrub) - so i will put it in terms that fit you. How do you teach people to make a decision where Marketing makes a step in a direction opposing the company direction? At what point do you pull out of a venture? When RAV tells you to make a north-east move into a new tier, do you need to make a south-west one to counter your competitors?
This can't be taught - it has to be risked and learned the hard way. Motorcycles are the same - they are risky. You fuck up - you can hurt. This cant be taught.

**Mikkel** · 21st July 2009, 13:00

Originally Posted by Katman

So what if that bird smacks straight into your helmet? Don't you think hitting a rather solid object like a hawk at 200+kph might stun you momentarily?

You'd be lucky if it didn't knock you out cold.

We have it on good authority that hitting a Pukeko at 80 km/h can break your nose and cause a right mess.
Another guy got a concussion by hit a duck with his helmet travelling at around 140 km/h with a pillion.

Neither of them crashed though.

I all honesty I am, and will remain, much more concerned with grit than errant poultry. And the irony is that grit could be made much much more predictable if anyone in charge actually gave a shit - but they don't.

**Katman** · 21st July 2009, 13:02

Originally Posted by shrub

At 200 kmh you don't swerve - or at least I don't. That's a good example of where speed is dangerous, but you could say the same for 100 kmh. A hawk at 100 kmh would hurt like crazy and quite probably knock you off your bike, so do we ride at 80 kmh in case that happens?

Surely you're not suggesting that travelling at 100kph rather than 200kph wouldn't give you more options on how you might react?

**Genestho** · 21st July 2009, 13:09

Originally Posted by avgas

It still amazes me the amount of people of all ages who have not taken their bikes and cars "off-road" to learn how to re-act in situations when they "randomly occur". This can not be taught in a class - you have to feel the learn sadly. The consequences of not knowing this - and relying on your road skills is fatal.

Yea I see your point.

That up there is gold. Moto-X skills as youngun must help re-action times.
I agree with hands on skills learnt in cars and on bikes, it's practical!

**shrub** · 21st July 2009, 13:50

Originally Posted by avgas

Motorcycles are the same - they are risky. You fuck up - you can hurt. This cant be taught.

Fortunately that's not true. I have had some nasty offs, but most of them were caused by crap bikes and one by Tequila. I had the fortune to do some rider training back in the early 80s and learnt some really good skills (like counter steering) that I have used ever since. I have also read and studied riding and tried things out (like counter steering) on empty roads until I understood how they worked and how I could use them to keep safe.

Contrary to common opinion, most motorcycle crashes are avoidable and skills can be learnt without having to have an accident in the process.

And I hit a Magpie at speed once - it frikking hurt and I had a brilliant bruise, but I didn't come off.

**Max Preload** · 21st July 2009, 14:05

Originally Posted by Katman

Surely you're not suggesting that travelling at 100kph rather than 200kph wouldn't give you more options on how you might react?

Next it'll be 50 km/h vs 100 km/h...

**MarkH** · 21st July 2009, 14:29

Originally Posted by Max Preload

Next it'll be 50 km/h vs 100 km/h...

20kph would be safer . . .

**PirateJafa** · 21st July 2009, 14:40

Originally Posted by Katman

So at 200+kph, what if a hawk feeding on road kill in the long grass on the side of the road, suddenly flies up into your path causing you to swerve forcing you onto the wrong side of the road?

Why swerve? Just take it like a man.

**Max Preload** · 21st July 2009, 15:05

Originally Posted by MarkH

20kph would be safer . . .

Or perhaps walking 60 yards ahead of each vehicle, a man with a red flag or lantern enforcing a walking pace, warning horse riders and horse drawn traffic of the approach of a self propelled machine...

Now we're getting somewhere...

**slofox** · 21st July 2009, 16:31

I had a sparrow commit suicide on my helmet recently. I would've been going 100 - 110 km/hr at the time (yes, really). Apart from making one helluva bang, it did me no harm. It did do the bird quite a lot of harm however...poor Tweety is no more...

Re the conscience thing:

I had a very narrow escape from colliding with a young lad many years ago when I was young and stupid and used to fang around corners I could not see through at stupid speeds. On this particular day, I was out somewhere around the Ashley Gorge with a mate who was riding a Norton Commando 850. I was on the little Benelli 250 and following in my mate's wake. We blasted round a sweeping bend - he was quite some way ahead. By the time I came round, a young kid ran out of a hidden driveway, right into the road, and into my path. I guess he was looking to see the motorbike he had heard. By the time I saw him, I was way too close to ever stop or indeed even avoid him - I was a split second from hitting him at high speed when he stopped and I brushed past with about 1mm to spare...
I have NEVER gone through a corner like that again in the intervening 30 years. I would not be able to live with myself if I killed somebody's child, most especially if I knew I was outside the law when it happened. I was damn lucky that day and so was the kid.
That is when I had the sense of conscience instilled in me. I still have it.

**gwigs** · 21st July 2009, 16:35

Originally Posted by Katman

So at 200+kph, what if a hawk feeding on road kill in the long grass on the side of the road, suddenly flies up into your path causing you to swerve forcing you onto the wrong side of the road?

IF Katman and a big IF......I doubt you would have any time to swerve as you put it....it would be all over by the time you said to yourself WTF was that...If I was you I,d stay home its safer

**carver** · 21st July 2009, 16:57

Originally Posted by Katman

So at 200+kph, what if a hawk feeding on road kill in the long grass on the side of the road, suddenly flies up into your path causing you to swerve forcing you onto the wrong side of the road?

i would just hit the fucker, hide behind the fairing