Encouraging ACC to support Trackdays in NZ

[James Deuce]

The Right Gear/Hi Vis stuff will be promoted, as it's a cynch. (Sorry JD I know you're anti this!!)

It doesn't work. It's related to the way the human brain works. At speed it casually edits your surroundings. Your brain is built for a maximum of 20kph. Over that you're no longer able to react instantly, you're in planning mode. You have to teach people to look for bikes.

It sounds simplistic, but it is literally teaching people to investigate their surroundings visually in a new way. Teaching people to check at intersections and check their mirrors for longer than the average 10th of a second will reduce the two vehicle accident rate enormously.

Another point to bear in mind, in that 10th of a second, your brain isn't seeing in colour.

I'm not "anti" reflective vests. The stats gathered about them are suspect. The kind of people who wear them from the word go, are not the sort of people who typicallu behave in a way that generates injury accidents. When you investigate a group of vest wearing nanas it is easy to conclude that the vests reduced the accident rate. It didn't. The rider's attitude to riding a bike reduced the accident rate. That group's accident rate would be all but the same even if they'd never worn vests. The Nana's tribal colours merely identify them.

Again, in low light, you don't see in colour. How does a hi-vis vest help? It doesn't. The reflective strips on the jacket are what is important, as it improves the visibility of the darkened side profile of a motorcycle at night. Most textile motorcycle jackets and luggage have reflective material built in for this very reason. Those reflectors people rip off the forks and the side of the seat unit are there for the same reason. In foul weather I wear a vest. Not a hi-vis one. It's a mesh vest with wide reflective strips.

[Genestho]

It doesn't work. It's related to the way the human brain works. At speed it casually edits your surroundings. Your brain is built for a maximum of 20kph. Over that you're no longer able to react instantly, you're in planning mode. You have to teach people to look for bikes.

It sounds simplistic, but it is literally teaching people to investigate their surroundings visually in a new way. Teaching people to check at intersections and check their mirrors for longer than the average 10th of a second will reduce the two vehicle accident rate enormously.

Another point to bear in mind, in that 10th of a second, your brain isn't seeing in colour.

I'm not "anti" reflective vests. The stats gathered about them are suspect. The kind of people who wear them from the word go, are not the sort of people who typicallu behave in a way that generates injury accidents. When you investigate a group of vest wearing nanas it is easy to conclude that the vests reduced the accident rate. It didn't. The rider's attitude to riding a bike reduced the accident rate. That group's accident rate would be all but the same even if they'd never worn vests. The Nana's tribal colours merely identify them.

Again, in low light, you don't see in colour. How does a hi-vis vest help? It doesn't. The reflective strips on the jacket are what is important, as it improves the visibility of the darkened side profile of a motorcycle at night. Most textile motorcycle jackets and luggage have reflective material built in for this very reason. Those reflectors people rip off the forks and the side of the seat unit are there for the same reason. In foul weather I wear a vest. Not a hi-vis one. It's a mesh vest with wide reflective strips.

No I agree with what you say about investigating the surroundings...That's not simplistic at all.

I've been caught out by a quiet Jap bike in my cars blind spot, luckily I checked over my shoulder before making a move! (The move was wait for the bike to pass, before using the right lane of a passing lane - simple, one would think. On an extremely loud bike have had cars cut off at a passing lane)

Personally I'm more in favour of The Right Gear. Bare ankles on Harleys give me the heebies(sorry seen it before many times), billowing rain jackets and bare knees, do the same, same with open face helmets ( I know personal preference)
Only because the only thing undamaged in my boys smash - was his face, with a gash between eyebrows, where the visor dug in.

Thing with promoting hi-vis, it's promoting the idea, by cynch - I mean a cynch for ACC, they're already doing it.

Have you more than anecdotal evidence, or could you please link to studies to illustrate your thoughts on reflective gear? Not taking the piss, I'd actually like to read about it, and use it.

[James Deuce]

Have you more than anecdotal evidence, or could you please link to studies to illustrate your thoughts on reflective gear? Not taking the piss, I'd actually like to read about it, and use it.

I've posted citations on KB repeatedly over the years, I've communicated with ACC and NZTA about it over the years. I'll comminicate with you diorectly and avoid the "search" feature.

[Genestho]

I've posted citations on KB repeatedly over the years, I've communicated with ACC and NZTA about it over the years. I'll comminicate with you diorectly and avoid the "search" feature.

Good Man!!!!

I've just found the section in the Safer Journeys consultation paper - Raising Awareness and Advertising "Promote high vis and protective clothing for Motorcyclists" Anything cited you have maybe useful as a submission addressing that.

[Genestho]

One thing that I would recommend that you push for is a tougher driving test for car and licenses. One that requires some real driver training and actually possessing some skills before you can drive on the road.
The supermarket carpark should be enough to demonstrate that too many drivers in NZ simply can't do the basics let alone drive on the open road.

LOL! I laugh at the supermarket analogy, so true! Take it further, trolleys inside the supermarket!!

In the Safer Journeys consultation paper there are a few things sorf of adressing what you say here.

Extend learner license period to 12 months.
Strengthen the restricted license test to encourage 120 hours of supervised driving practise.
Increase the benefit of approved prfoessional driver training courses, (eg, allow these to be taken in the learner license phase and replace time reduction for completion with another incentive)
Impound vehicles for those who breach GDSL license conditions
Increase vehicle restrictions for young drivers (eg, based on power, modified vehicles)

And something I like - compulsary third party insurance.

[FJRider]

Ok Ok, I've had sleep, and thunk on it, I'm not feeling the love for promoting Trackdays, I'll still suggest promoting Trackdays or something similar (Obstinate tart Arn't I? )

However though, as there's a turn in the stat's showing rider error the campaign this year is aimed at this. BUT....

Track days that are not about top speed achieved, but about highway speed bike handling. For motorcyclists that have upgraded from smaller bikes. Or the born again biker that has not ridden for a few years and had learnt on older machines. And the city learner/comuter who needs practice at highway speeds.

(Practice of) Sudden avoidence of dangerous things on the road has a rather dramatic effect at highway speeds, rather than at 50/70 km'hr. Taking different lines through corners to improve rider skill/confidence makes for safer riders.

Safer riders I assume should be the end goal.

[dubshack]

Increase vehicle restrictions for young drivers (eg, based on power, modified vehicles)

And something I like - compulsary third party insurance.

Vehicle restrictions should not just be on young drivers. It should be on new drivers no matter the age.
I would love to see a horsepower restriction applied to car drivers for the first few years. i.e. 100bhp max for the first few years. This gives them plenty of car options and it automatically reduces their 0-60 time which increases the amount of time it takes for them to get out of control.

Moving away from motorcycles here though.

Third party, i agree

As part of my process to set up the Superbike School here in NZ I have spoken to a lot of people and the response has been awesome. Support has come from a number of places and Star Insurance is one of those that are supporting us 110%. They are looking at a number of options if the school has been attended as they see the benefits of the world leading training organisation being here in NZ.
The biggest challenge for ACC is that they should not force people to attend a school as the push back on the coaches would be huge. The worst students that we have at a school are those that did not pay for it. Jounalists for example who are on a freebie because their boss sent them can be aweful or the smart arse kid whose Dad has paid.
Give the benefits, savings etc to those that have invested in themselves. This then brings me back to my point from an earlier post of how do you certify who can train. What we teach at CSS will be different from what somebody else teaches and I would like to bet that what we teach is nothing like any NZ standards training course would like us to teach. What we teach is all proven and has the technology to back it up. 150,000 students worldwide and this year alone we should train between 12-15000 people not including the private training for the Marine Corps in the USA. We save lives for a living and I would love for it to be compulsory for every rider to attend at least the first level of what we teach. Not practical but it would save lives and reduce the accident rate. I would gaurantee that.

[dubshack]

Track days that are not about top speed achieved, but about highway speed bike handling. For motorcyclists that have upgraded from smaller bikes. Or the born again biker that has not ridden for a few years and had learnt on older machines. And the city learner/comuter who needs practice at highway speeds.

(Practice of) Sudden avoidence of dangerous things on the road has a rather dramatic effect at highway speeds, rather than at 50/70 km'hr. Taking different lines through corners to improve rider skill/confidence makes for safer riders.

Safer riders I assume should be the end goal.

Yes but who is training the people at track days.
Practice make permanent and if you are doing the wrong things then this does not help.

[FJRider]

Yes but who is training the people at track days.
Practice make permanent and if you are doing the wrong things then this does not help.

If the end result is safer motorcyclists, funding (or partial funding) for qualified instructors could be gained. Fees still may be required by participants, but end result would be (seen to be) worth it.

Even a simple "follow the leader" circuits, behind an experienced rider, showing correct/incorrect lines, weaving through cones at highway speeds to gain confidence at changing directions on the highway.

Even a simple braking test can improve a bikers abilitys. Awareness of correct following distances ... and why, by practical demonstration ... must be good.

Simple mistakes you can make on the road can kill you ... or kill a mate. Or cause you a lot of pain. If only in the wallet.

[Genestho]

There is an idea in the pipeline, involving two specific points raised in this thread, regarding training - but I'm not allowed to talk about it online, which I respect because it would suck if we don't pull it off, and I've raised hopes.

Hopefully I can expand on this later in the year, if there's some movement and confirmation on the idea - I imagine it would have full support within the Motorcycling community!!! But because groups like this are regional, and if there are any groups similar - I'm not aware they're functioning, it would be small scale.

[FJRider]

What some may not realise ... better rider riding skills CAN make(let) you go faster... but dont tell ACC.

Better lines make better times.

[Rayray401]

So... is this going to raise our ACC levys again? cos i remember 3 years back when rego only cost 250. its 320 now.

[nigela]

There are 2 "have a go" days booked in this coming seasons Bike Rider Magazine Summer Series. the first one on 30 January at Manfeild and the second on 20 March at Taupo. these are being run on a similar stye to the Moto TT days (at the request of one of the insurance companies).
There will be volunteer competition riders riding amongst the slow classes to see who needs advice/help and people will be able to get themselves checked out by an experienced rider.
We ran this concept on our Manfeild round last season (back then it was still called the Pacific Summer Series) and the only incidents all day were when competition licenced riders only, were on the track.
One of the common feed backs I got was that road only riders did discover just how much they didn't know.
Improvements can be made to a riders ability with out having to have highly qualified, spelt expensive, instructors.
I think schools like the one being set up at Hampton downs are going to have an important part in rider training, but I would caution against asking it to be compulsory for all riders to go through this type of training.
If you make it too costly or too hard to get your licence, you will just get more unlicenced riders.
This is proven with the current car licencing system. People are screaming to have the minumum age for a licence raised, to fix the accident rate, while totally ignoring the fact that a major amount of the accidents are from unlicenced drivers.

[Genestho]

One of the common feed backs I got was that road only riders did discover just how much they didn't know.
Improvements can be made to a riders ability with out having to have highly qualified, spelt expensive, instructors.

I no doubt agree, but would ACC promote this? I can but ask.
I think schools like the one being set up at Hampton downs are going to have an important part in rider training, but I would caution against asking it to be compulsory for all riders to go through this type of training.
There is no request to ask anybody to do this compulsary. It's merely promoting the idea, if accepted. And another idea making training accessable and accepted by youth, which I will not be discussing here.If you make it too costly or too hard to get your licence, you will just get more unlicenced riders.
Yup!This is proven with the current car licencing system. People are screaming to have the minumum age for a licence raised, to fix the accident rate, while totally ignoring the fact that a major amount of the accidents are from unlicenced drivers.

Hmmm. While I don't doubt unlicensed driver cause smashes....In fact i KNOW it...but if you're comparing youth...and if you go back a few posts, raising the license age won't be enough - thus there are intiatives up for discussion. Unlicensed drivers are a whole different kettle of fish.

"Last year, young drivers were involved in around 37 per cent of all fatal road crashes and 37 per cent of all serious injury crashes. Crashes blamed on young drivers resulted in 122 deaths and 800 serious injuries in 2008. The social cost of these crashes was approximately $1.1 billion.
New Zealand's 15 to 17-year-olds have the highest road death rate in the OECD. For each young at-fault driver killed, 1.3 other road users also
die. Most people killed by young drivers are their own passengers, their peers. This is a key reason why road crashes are the single greatest killer of 15 to 24-year-olds, and the leading cause of their permanent injury. It also largely explains why our young people have a road fatality rate of 21 per 100,000 population — double New Zealand's overall rate. They are some of the world's youngest licensed drivers."

[Genestho]

So... is this going to raise our ACC levys again? cos i remember 3 years back when rego only cost 250. its 320 now.

Your levys are paying out for smashes under a no blame policy. Enjoy!

Each person killed on our roads, costs the economy, the taxpayers just over 3 mill per person in monetry terms.
Perhaps even including budget blow outs.