ACC - How to get the nation's motorbike bill down

[p.dath]

Cost based rebate won't fly IMHO
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You could perhaps require at a most basic level the wearing of "gear" in addition to the current helmet laws. Gloves, upper body covering (jacket) with sleeves to your wrists, full leg trousers, boots which extend above the ankle. Placing any further requirement on the nature of the gear than that would be far too complicated and expensive for everybody concerned, especialy the tax payer who would have to pay to develop and police the certifications.
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There is one other option. Allow competition for ACC. Rider specific accident insurance, if ACC really is overcharging, then that's the way to go.

I agree with everything you say.
If gear was to be mandated, I also think the mandate should initially be simple. It can always be reviewed at a later point in time.

Plus it will be much easier to enforce this way. Does the person have a jacket on covering their arms to their wrists or not? Pretty straight forward. Ditto the other things.

[Big Dave]

Rather than paying you a rebate, why not just reduce the cost of their product in the first place - much less paper work.

And for the same reason why they wouldn't just reduce their prices in the first place is also the same reason they wouldn't pay a rebate.

It's called marketing.

[Jantar]

I agree with everything you say.
If gear was to be mandated, I also think the mandate should initially be simple. ...

While do generally wear ATGATT I would be the first to rebel if it should be made compulsory. As motorcyclists we already object to being told how to ride, where to ride, when to ride etc. Why should we then invite even more laws that we can get pinged for?

Much better to educate and encourage than to legislate and punish.

[p.dath]

While do generally wear ATGATT I would be the first to rebel if it should be made compulsory. As motorcyclists we already object to being told how to ride, where to ride, when to ride etc. Why should we then invite even more laws that we can get pinged for?

Much better to educate and encourage than to legislate and punish.

Because despite being educated we still managed to have sufficient accidents that it costs the nation half a billion dollars to fix us back up again.

Refer to my first post. As I said, even if you educate people so they understand the risk they will still choose to take the risk of not wearing appropriate gear. No amount of additional education will change the problem.

Smoking is similar. A lot of those who smoke know the risks, but choose to accept them and continue smoking. It doesn't mean those who smoke are stupid. It just means they choose to accept the risk.
Luckily with smoking we can at least collect additional tax for those that accept the risk and choose to continue.

The problem is that the risk motorcyclists take cost us a substantial amount of money - half a billion. Could I have some of that back in my pocket please. I can, how? By reducing the cost of motorcycle accidents due to people wearing in-appropriate gear.

I thought you were advocating the use of gear and a rebate ...

[Jonno.]

I'm curious James, what is your opinion on white helmets?

[Jantar]

....I thought you were advocating the use of gear and a rebate ...

I am. That is one reason I am anti compulsion. Wearing the correct gear won't prevent accidents and it is far better to get people to wear ATGATT if they believe it is in their best interests than if its just because its law.

My first priority as far as reducing ACC costs is to prevent accidents from happening in the first place. My second priority is to educate riders as to what gear is appropriate for the type of riding.

One issue with the appropriate type of gear was taught to me in no uncertain terms followin my crash in outback Aussie. The sugeon claimed that where the muscles had torn off my shoulder was exactly where the hard armour was. He could even see the shape of the armour in the bruising. He commented that without the armour I would have broken bones, but that would have been easily repairable and I'd be back to a normal life in months. Instead it was major soft tissue damage that is permanent. So for low speed riding in soft conditions its no more hard armour for me.

[p.dath]

I am. That is one reason I am anti compulsion. Wearing the correct gear won't prevent accidents and it is far better to get people to wear ATGATT if they believe it is in their best interests than if its just because its law.
...

So if ACC pays out $10m in rebates, and saves $2m in accidents, there will be a shortfall of $8m. That means everyone's ACC premiums (including those already with good gear) will go up by a net $8m.

How do you intend to address that issue?

[James Deuce]

I'm curious James, what is your opinion on white helmets?

The impression of white is obtained by three summations of light intensity across the visible spectrum.

But that's not important right now.

If perchance you mean, "are they more visible?", I would have to say, "only to motorcyclists". We're keyed to pick up visual stimuli relating to motorcycles because we like them. Even the ones we don't like.

Relying on the findings of someone else's study to make you feel more visible is a mugs game. They can't see you, they don't see you, they won't see you.

[James Deuce]

Because despite being educated we still managed to have sufficient accidents that it costs the nation half a billion dollars to fix us back up again.

.

You've already bought and paid for the propaganda that says that all motorcyclists are idiots and can't be relied upon to look after themselves. You're wrong. ACC is wrong. NZTA is wrong. Most motorcyclists (not scroterists or communters) are intensely interested in their hobby/lifestyle/reason for getting up in the morning, and motorcycle apparel has never been as capable as it is right now. Most motorcyclists I know are pretty commited to providing themselves with a level of protection appropriate for the type of ride they are about to go on. It's why I like motorcyclists. As a rule they aren't dumb.

ACC levies are not going to go down. They will go up until we meet the cost of motorcycling to ACC. That's roughly $500 a year at present.

That figure will reduce only if more people take up motorcycling and less of them have injury and fatal accidents as a percentage of the whole.

So the only way to address the issue is to encourage more people onto bikes and encourage those people to take their ego out of the equation when riding a bike.

The biggest issue facing you on the road at the moment is what goes on in your head while you are riding. MOst motorcycle accidents are single vehicle. mid-corner incidents. Stop falling off.

The second biggest issue is the inability of politicians to admit that NZ driver training is non-existent and two vehicle MVAs are variously reported as being between 50 and 75% the fault of the other driver/rider. Teach people to actively scan for motorcycles and how to pick them out of the background and you have the potential to reduce accidents stats by about 40%. Teach motorcyclists that riding a bike on the road isn't about maximising lean angle and grip and you have the potential to reduce accidents by 50%. I know which one I'd target. You have to understand the logic behind the stance that ACC take about motorcyclists.

It's not the gear we wear. It's the attitude we take with us on the road.

[bogan]

It's not the gear we wear. It's the attitude we take with us on the road.

I agree that the attitude is a bigger factor, but more people in decent gear cant do any harm either, why not target both?

[p.dath]

You've already bought and paid for the propaganda that says that all motorcyclists are idiots and can't be relied upon to look after themselves. You're wrong. ACC is wrong. NZTA is wrong. Most motorcyclists (not scroterists or communters) are intensely interested in their hobby/lifestyle/reason for getting up in the morning, and motorcycle apparel has never been as capable as it is right now.

ACC levies are not going to go down. They will go up until we meet the cost of motorcycling to ACC. That's roughly $500 a year at present.

That figure will reduce only if more people take up motorcycling and less of them have injury and fatal accidents as a percentage of the whole.

So the only way to address the issue is to encourage more people onto bikes and encourage those people to take their ego out of the equation when riding a bike.

The biggest issue facing you on the road at the moment is what goes on in your head while you are riding. MOst motorcycle accidents are single vehicle. mid-corner incidents. Stop falling off.

The second biggest issue is the inability of politicians to admit that NZ driver training is non-existent and two vehicle MVAs are variously reported as being between 50 and 75% the fault of the other driver/rider. Teach people to actively scan for motorcycles and how to pick them out of the background and you have the potential to reduce accidents stats by about 40%. Teach motorcyclists that riding a bike on the road isn't about maximising lean angle and grip and you have the potential to reduce accidents by 50%. I know which one I'd target. You have to understand the logic behind the stance that ACC take about motorcyclists.

It's not the gear we wear. It's the attitude we take with us on the road.

I guess we are going to have a permanent difference of opinion here.

Nothing you have said addresses the issue of people not wearing motorcycle safety gear. Are you proposing those people not wearing motorcycle safety gear have no or little effect on the ACC bill?

I do agree that if there are more motorcyclists and the percentage of them having accidents is less than it is now the ACC bill per person will go down.
However may I suggest that if no one additional becomes a motorcyclist, and then percentage of riders having accidents reduces, then the bill will also reduce.

So in effect, if we reduce the percentage of accidents per rider we'll reduce the ACC spend.

[James Deuce]

Nothing you have said addresses the issue of people not wearing motorcycle safety gear. Are you proposing those people not wearing motorcycle safety gear have no or little effect on the ACC bill?

Yes it did. You're not reading what I'm saying clearly. Most motorcyclists wear gear that is appropriate for the level of risk they are prepared to accept. The gear they wear is vastly better (and cheaper) than what was available 20 years ago.

For some reason, you, along with the legislators that matter, have decided that not wearing appropriate gear is the major cause of motorcyclist injuries. It's not. People who don't wear decent gear some of the time are generally speaking using two wheeled appliances as transport.

Decent gear can only do so much. Both the riding buddies who have died in the last 5 years would have had the same outcome if they'd been naked. One of them spent thousands on Alpinestars gear. Head-on accidents at speed tend to not go well for motorcyclists. Both accidents had more to do with the attitudes of the riders than their attitude toward gear. In fact, I would rate both those riders as having an exemplary attitude toward decent riding gear.

[Big Dave]

Enough with the 'we'.

[p.dath]

... Most motorcyclists wear gear that is appropriate for the level of risk they are prepared to accept. The gear they wear is vastly better (and cheaper) than what was available 20 years ago.

100% agree.

For some reason, you, along with the legislators that matter, have decided that not wearing appropriate gear is the major cause of motorcyclist injuries. It's not. People who don't wear decent gear some of the time are generally speaking using two wheeled appliances as transport.

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I also agree, it is not the major cause. I believe that the majority of riders do in fact where some kind of motorcycle safety gear.
However abrasion based injuries tend to result in long expensive procedures to rectify the damage. A prior poster listed the cost of minor injuries as $61k. Imagine if we prevented just 1000 of these injuries.
I'm trying to target those injury costs [relating to riders who do not wear safety gear]

[AD345]

Dear Lord

Please save me from people who want to save me from myself.

Thanks

AD345


PS: if you could do something about the All Blacks backline that would be nice too