Skeptics take on the anti-1080 nutters, and others

[Hitcher]

The info available to me regarding 1080 breakdown is somewhat ambiguous (and in one case, apparent crap). You seem confident about this point, though: so what is your understanding of the chemistry involved?

The MSDS for 1080 says "Slightly soluble in water and in ethanol". (And also: "Extremely hazardous","Very toxic by inhalation, ingestion or through skin absorption. Estimated lethal dose in humans is in the region of 2-10 mg/kg").

Rainfall renders 1080 useless in a comparatively short space of time. That's why its application is weather dependent. The reason access restrictions remain in place for so long is because it takes some time for possum carcasses to decompose. Until they do, there is a risk of foraging dogs getting poisoned.

Ummm, heard of rats? Furry brown/black things, teeth, tails, fond of cheese, carry diseases? Not very popular in most parts?

No authority that I am aware of is trying to eradicate rats. Control is a different matter entirely. Trapping is about control. 1080 is about eradication.

[Hitcher]

toxic shit

You're merely recycling the Graf brothers propaganda that the Skeptics have debunked in the original post in this thread. Well done.

[ynot slow]

When I used to stay at huts on Mt.Egmont 20 years ago the bush was quiet from no birdlife,as possums stripped the trees.After a few 1080 drops in the next 15 years the bird life improved,also the tree vegetation,maybe coincidence.

The thing is my take is yes it's a good pest control system in the correct circumstances.In very hard to reach areas,where family pets can't ingest dead animals and die a slow death.My auntie and uncle farm upto a park boundary,when a drop is being contemplated the landowners are notified,but they have still found stray pellets on paddocks next to boundary fences,when they're supposed to be dropped further inside the park.

[rainman]

Sodium fluoroacetate is the active incredient but it's a nautrally accuring agent in most plants etc

(Emphasis mine).

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3545249

http://us.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalP...CB1739103.aspx

http://dspace.lincoln.ac.nz/dspace/handle/10182/793

Uhm. Two things:

• "Most" plants? According to Wikipedia, we're talking "at least 40 plants" - so not many at all.
• Concentration - everything I've seen indicates that the plants that do have this chemical do so only in minute amounts (maybe excluding gifblaar and gousiekbossies, but that kinda makes sense given their names - "poison leaf" and "quick sick bushes")

So, it may be "naturally accuring" (sic) but... so what? It's still nasty and toxic.

[Ixion]

..
No authority that I am aware of is trying to eradicate rats. Control is a different matter entirely. Trapping is about control. 1080 is about eradication.

You are mistaken. Mrs Ixion (than whom there is no greater authority at Chez Ixion) is very clear. Rats are to be eradicated , not merely controlled . Mrs Ixion harbours an innate dislike of rats . I am the poor soul who must accomplish the eradication. Fortunately I have feline assistance. The felines harbour no antipathy to the rats, regarding them as rather jolly playthings, with an unfortunate tendency to go dead in the middle of the game. But, it suits my purpose.

[scumdog]

but a deer would have to consume somat like 60kg of 1080 impregnated carrot to die

What about the pellets McJim?

the dead deer I've seen sure as hell didn't eat anywhere near ONE kg.

[scumdog]

Normally I agree with the skeptics, but in this case I do believe thay have got it wrong.

Whilst I haven't seen the technical data or perused any origional studies on lethal doses, I have been through areas of native bush shortly before a 1080 drop and again a week after. The difference is astonishing. Plenty of birdsong and deer sign before the drop, and plenty of silence afterwards. also plenty of dead birds (mostly native) and some dead deer..

I concur.

Same thing everywhere I've been after 1080 was there ahead of me.

Quietness.

Too much quietness.

[Ixion]

What about the pellets McJim?

the dead deer I've seen sure as hell didn't eat anywhere near ONE kg.

Acetates are often sweet. The 1080 must be tasty , or otherwise the possums would not eat it. Perhaps the deer lick the bait ?

Or, it may be that the preparation of the laced carrots is done in the traditional manner. Bert throws a couple of shovelfuls of 1080 into a sack of carrots and shakes the sack a bit.

In which case some deposits may be very much more lethal than others.

[Hitcher]

I'm missing something here. Surely if a hunter's purpose is to wander off into The Great Outdoors(TM) with the intention of killing things, surely they should be delighted if they find their quarry pre-killed? It saves them a job.

I lost a lot of respect I had some time ago for hunters when I learned that some deliberately liberate pest species, particularly pigs, into native ecosystems just so they have something to go and hunt. Fuckers.

If hunters are worried now about the effect that 1080 has on the health and wellbeing of deer and other introduced pests, they should pray each night that New Zealand never has a Foot and Mouth Disease outbreak.

[rainman]

Rainfall renders 1080 useless in a comparatively short space of time.

Semantics. "Useless" rather than "harmless" isn't what's under discussion - the chemistry of the supposed breakdown in water is.

[Hitcher]

Semantics. "Useless" rather than "harmless" isn't what's under discussion - the chemistry of the supposed breakdown in water is.

http://www.ermanz.govt.nz/news-event.../addinfo34.pdf

http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/pu...080_review.pdf

[Ixion]

This document appears (both from its content and from its source) to be a reasonably neutral synopsis of 1080.

It does not mention degradation to harmless compounds in water. rather the reverse, and notes that the material is readily water soluble.

[Ixion]

Some very basic research appears to show that the degradation of 1080 in water is based on studies of the effect of 1080 entering streams and such like. The degradation is apparently dependant on aquatic plants and invertebrates (which seems a bit odd).

This leaves unaddressed the issue of the poisonous substance being washed off the baits into small local catchments (eg puddles) which might be used as drinking sources by animals (especially if the 1080 content rendered the water "tasty").

I am no green ie (Wot? You guessed. Shit wot are y' psychic or summit?). But I do know that whenever man messes about with nature, the result is almost never what he expects and that the ill effects are almost always much more far reaching than anyone predicted.

I see no reason why possums should not be controlled the good old fashioned way, with lead.

[McJim]

http://www.doc.govt.nz/conservation/...-control/1080/

Here is the link to real info. A $100,000 industral carrot cutter is used to cut the carrots and apply the 1080, dye and cinammon. It's a bit more technical than shaking a sack!

NZ has no native mammals and it's mainly mammals affected by this poison. Dogs are more susceptible thn other animals to the poison. I don't have a dog so this doesn't bother me overly and besides - aren't you supposed to keep your dog on a leash unless it's in your own garden?

[munster]

Of course the Skeptics are unbiased, NOT!

"Members of the NZ Skeptics are involved in various conservation efforts across the country"

"Hyde has a particular interest in this area, having served for eight years on the Possum Biocontrol Bioethics Committee, alongside representatives from Forest & Bird, the RNZSPCA and Ngai Tahu. "

Anyone else care to see photo's of horses with coughed out lungs becuase of 1080 overdrop near Turangi just over a year ago? Not a pretty sight.