BHS and countersteering

[Sheba]

Hey, have probably a very silly question, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

I'm looking to do my BHS soon, and also reading a bit about the NZ road code. In it they mention very briefly about countersteering and pushing the handle bars in the direction of where you want the bike to go, and it seeming like the 'wrong' thing to do but being the most effective means of changing direction and controlling your bike.

I rode pillion with someone once in a parking lot who let me feel how he made turns by countersteering. It was very weird and I don't quite understand how it works. So my questions are: Is this something that is 'taught' or gone over in a BHS class? Or does it really come naturally when you start riding more? I'm a little concerned that when I start learning to ride, or even during my BHS, that I'm going to make turns and just topple over.

Thanks guys for any advice or info.

[Ronin]

Hey, have probably a very silly question, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

I'm looking to do my BHS soon, and also reading a bit about the NZ road code. In it they mention very briefly about countersteering and pushing the handle bars in the direction of where you want the bike to go, and it seeming like the 'wrong' thing to do but being the most effective means of changing direction and controlling your bike.

I rode pillion with someone once in a parking lot who let me feel how he made turns by countersteering. It was very weird and I don't quite understand how it works. So my questions are: Is this something that is 'taught' or gone over in a BHS class? Or does it really come naturally when you start riding more? I'm a little concerned that when I start learning to ride, or even during my BHS, that I'm going to make turns and just topple over.

Thanks guys for any advice or info.

Never had it mentioned when I did my BHS. A conversation on CS can turn rapidly into a "is there a special KB wave" type of thing.

It sounds counterintuitive but once you have it sussed your fine. Jump on a pushbike and give it a go, the same principles apply. I found it easier to just accept that it works rather than try to understand how it works

[paddy]

Hey, have probably a very silly question, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

No silly questions - only silly answers!

I'm looking to do my BHS soon, and also reading a bit about the NZ road code. In it they mention very briefly about countersteering and pushing the handle bars in the direction of where you want the bike to go, and it seeming like the 'wrong' thing to do but being the most effective means of changing direction and controlling your bike.

Firstly, forget about it for your BHS - you won't be going fast enough. You're going to have enough on your mind anyway. If there was one REALLY important piece of advice for your BHS it would be: TURN YOUR HEAD AND LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.

In the longer term, there seem to be two schools of thought around countersteer:

1) It's something that just happens naturally. You lean your body which leans the bike - or maybe you lean your body and it shifts your weight onto your inside hand which countersteers and leans the bike.

2) It's a concious decision. Steering isn't achieved by shifting your weight - but my pushing on the inside bar. This causes the bike to lean - then you can shift your weight if you need to (i.e. if you are going REALLY fast and need to move your centre of gravity).

I subscribe to the second theory - the reason being that in the event of an emergency, the person who consciously uses (2) is more likely to correctly countersteer and be able to swerve rapidly. Having said that, my personal opinion would be brake. It's choosing between: do I reduce the likelihood of a crash by swerving (but therefore increase the consequence) or do I reduce the consequence by braking (and therefore increase the likelihood). Risk is a measure of likelihood X consequence. (R=CL).

Anyway, that's opening a whole other can of worms. Do you ride a push-bike? Get yourself on a moderate hill - maybe going around 30 KM/H and push on one side of the handle bars and see what happens.

P.

[Jantar]

At the BHS stage of your riding, do not even give counter steering a thought. It will happen and you won't even know that you are doing it. Just look where you want to go, and that is where the bike will follow.

As you get more experienced come back and ask the question again. At that point we will explain what is actually happening and why.

[sleeqe2000]

I echo what Paddy is saying - don't worry about countersteering. I only started playing around with it when I went up to my full and got a bigger bike.
You start trying it at first and then gradually it becomes more natural over time until you do it without even thinking.

Get your learners and have fun !

[White trash]

Counter steering is how two wheeled vehicles go round corners unless travelling very slowly. If you've ridden anything motorized or otherwise chances are you've already done it without noticing.

[Paddi Irishman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVa2Ax-Dins

Good clip to explain it for you...

[Supermac Jr]

I find the 'why' CS happens quite interesting (gyroscopic effect).

Do Ride-Right Ride Safe - they explain it in english. When I did it they had a rim that you hold and you can feel the effects of moving/applying force to the rim. Very cool!!!

[paddy]

I find the 'why' CS happens quite interesting (gyroscopic effect).

It is actually - sorry I couldn't resist. You should stop reading now if you are easily bored. :-)

It's caused by an effect called gyroscopic precession. Basically, any force applied to a rotating body will be "precessed 90 degrees in the direction of rotation". So, if you had a spinning disk with the flat side facing you, and it was rotating clockwise, then you pushed the top of the wheel away from you, you would actually expect the top of the disk to stay reasonbly in place, but the right hand side of the disk would move away from you. That is to say, the force that you apply would appear as if you had applied it 90 degrees away in the direction of rotation.

So, if we apply that to handlebars, turning the bars to the right you are moving the front of the wheel to the right and the rear of the wheel to the left. These forces are precessed 90 degrees in the direction of rotation. That means that (assuming you are riding forwards) the top of the wheel is going to try and move to the left, and the bottom of the wheel is going to try and move to the right (although in reality this is prevented by friction with the road surface and therefore just has a levering effect adding more force to the displacement at the top of the wheel).

The wheel isn't spinning fast enough for the forces of gyroscopic precession to overcome the weight/momentum of the bike until you are moving at around 15 - 20 KM/H.

It used to be fun when we where kids to take our push-bike wheel off. Hold them on both sides by the axle and have someone spin the wheel by hand. You could then tip the wheel in various directions and feel the precession (not that I knew it's name or nature back then).

If we have any resident helichopter pilots they will be able to expand more, the main rotor disk suffers a lot of precession effects.

There. Got that off my chest.

[Paddi Irishman]

It used to be fun when we where kids to take our push-bike wheel off. Hold them on both sides by the axle and have someone spin the wheel by hand. You could then tip the wheel in various directions and feel the precession (not that I knew it's name or nature back then).


There. Got that off my chest.

best done sitting on a swivel chair for maximum effect...

[bogan]

It is actually - sorry I couldn't resist. You should stop reading now if you are easily bored. :-)

.....

There. Got that off my chest.

Hmmmm, I didnt really understand that, will now wiki it, i just thought countersteering was the quickest way to transfer weight to one side of the bike to lean into a corner.

[paddy]

Hmmmm, I didnt really understand that, will now wiki it, i just thought countersteering was the quickest way to transfer weight to one side of the bike to lean into a corner.

Here's an oversimplification: when you turn the bars to the right, gyroscopic pression causes the top of the wheel to move to the left with the same force that you apply to the bars (hence the bike leans).

[YellowDog]

Hey Sheba, I'm going to make this really easy to stop you worrying about countersteering. Like has already been said, you probably do it already.

Everytine you come to a corner or a bend, just swing out before you actually take it. The faster you go, the smaller the swing.

If you always swingout, you will always take great bends.

Countersteering, it's as easy as that!

[bogan]

Here's an oversimplification: when you turn the bars to the right, gyroscopic pression causes the top of the wheel to move to the left with the same force that you apply to the bars (hence the bike leans).

hmmm, yeh i see what you mean now, but the bike also leans cos the wheel track has gone off to the right, while the center of mass is still traveling along the same path, thus creating a rotation that way.

[paddy]

hmmm, yeh i see what you mean now, but the bike also leans cos the wheel track has gone off to the right, while the center of mass is still traveling along the same path, thus creating a rotation that way.

It's probably both then. But that's where you have departed my gamut of knowledge. :-) My knowledge of precession comes from aircraft props.