BHS and countersteering

[AxN]

I am sure centrifugal force also come into play somehow.

http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/counter.html

[bogan]

I am sure centrifugal force also come into play somehow.

http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/counter.html

well yeh, centrifugal=centripetal=going round corners

[AxN]

well yeh, centrifugal=centripetal=going round corners

hmm... actually centrifugal and centripetal are action/reaction paired forces

[magicmonkey]

I read this a while ago:

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans...eerBikeAJP.PDF

it's a bit over the top from a physics point of view but it's well explained and cleared up my idea of how the pricipals work ...

[CookMySock]

It doesn't matter how it works, nor should you be bothered with the internal workings of it.

In a car, you can grab the steering wheel and yank it. On a bike, you can't... Well, you can - and that's countersteering, but many, if not most motorcycle license holders can't do it, because they don't have their brain configured that way.

The critical thing with biking is, you must be able to steer with the bars and in the event of an emergency, you must instantly and authoritively revert to bar-steering (countersteering), and firmly take evasive action. If you don't, or you can't, then you are going to die.

Once you have mastered putting around town at 50 km/hr, find a section of straight road and get up to about 70-80km/hr, and experiment with pushing alternately on one bar and then the other. Get skilled at authoritively placing the bike precisely where you want with a firm push on the bars. Now try some corners doing the same.

For the next month at least, your self-training will be to ride everywhere only using this method for steering. The goal is firmly embed this into your brain. In an emergency you will revert to the countersteer to swerve - this will almost certainly save your life.

Steve

[Qkchk:Me]

Firstly, forget about it for your BHS - you won't be going fast enough. You're going to have enough on your mind anyway. If there was one REALLY important piece of advice for your BHS it would be: TURN YOUR HEAD AND LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.

Right on the money.

[Maha]

Countersteering is not for everybody, Arron Slight does not beleive there is such a thing. Its such a slight (scuse the pun) pushing movement, more of a 'weighting the bar' really, you hardly even notice you're doing it, just lean and go around the corner, the bike will do that.

[paddy]

Countersteering is not for everybody, Arron Slight does not beleive there is such a thing. Its such a slight (scuse the pun) pushing movement, more of a 'weighting the bar' really, you hardly even notice you're doing it, just lean and go around the corner, the bike will do that.

Yep - and that fits into the first school of thought I mentioned in my first post. I am defnitely in the other camp though. I think both ways work - but if you're doing it conciously then you are much better equiped in a emergency situation as DB alluded to above (although my personal thinking would still be brake rather than swerve in that scenario). While I am well aware that my riding experience isn't even the tiniest of marks on Aaron Slights - I do wonder if his track focus biases his thinking.

Oh, and Sheba - you should ignore all of this debate. It's not going to be helpful to you at this stage. Just remember: look where you want to go. Let us know when you are doing your BHS. Enjoy it.

[Sheba]

Whew...yeah, that was a lot of information. But really helpful, I find it fascinating.

I do agree about just focusing on the BHS and keeping it simple. You all are a fountain of info. Awesome. Thanks for helping us newbies out. I guess you'd want to though, if you'll be sharing the road with some of us in the future.

[CookMySock]

if you're doing it conciously then you are much better equiped in a emergency situation as DB alluded to above (although my personal thinking would still be brake rather than swerve in that scenario).

Well you can use braking, or you can swerve, but you can't do both together. In a car - brake, since it's unlikely there will be a usable gap. On a bike, there is always a usable gap - more usable than the back of a truck anyway.

Just remember: look where you want to go. Let us know when you are doing your BHS. Enjoy it.

I think that very first brain embedding thing is imperative. Once a biker trains his brain steer with his ass - its all over rover. Emergency procedure is now a forced/concious decision. Not good.

Initial training must be to bar push - and nothing else. In a panic, the rider reverts to his initial training - the bars, and ignores trivialities like scraping sounds from the pegs. Rider stays alive.

Steve

[modboy]

Aaron Slight is on record saying it's a bit of myth. I tend to agree although it could be semantics.

I think of it like this - when turning (at a bit of speed) you are actually applying a sort of downward pressure to the leading handle bar - so if you are turning left, leaning the bike over by pushing down on the left hand handle bar.

If you were riding a trike (or god-forbid) a bike with a sidecar, you'd actually have to turn the handlebars (so turning left, you'd push turn the right hand handlebar), with countersteering your not really turning the handlebars in the conventional way. So your applying pressure to the (intuitively) opposite handlebar to what you'd expect.

That probably makes no sense whatsoever - don't worry about it. Someone said earlier at the BHS / Learner stage most important thing is to look where your going - keep your head up - look at the solution (the gap) not at the problem (the oncoming truck). And just ride within your ability - what is that, it's when you are riding feeling comfortable and safe.

Good luck

[Maki]

Well you can use braking, or you can swerve, but you can't do both together. In a car - brake, since it's unlikely there will be a usable gap. On a bike, there is always a usable gap - more usable than the back of a truck anyway.

I think that very first brain embedding thing is imperative. Once a biker trains his brain steer with his ass - its all over rover. Emergency procedure is now a forced/concious decision. Not good.

Initial training must be to bar push - and nothing else. In a panic, the rider reverts to his initial training - the bars, and ignores trivialities like scraping sounds from the pegs. Rider stays alive.

Steve

Countersteering is not so hard to grasp, just ride in a straight line and push one bar or the other and see what happens. It's steering with the ass that I struggle with. How does it work?

[CookMySock]

Countersteering is not so hard to grasp, just ride in a straight line and push one bar or the other and see what happens. It's steering with the ass that I struggle with. How does it work?

Just move your shoulders slightly and tip your weight from one bum cheek to the other and note the bike tips gently into the corner. It's fine for humming along in a straight line and taking gentle bends, but a bar-push it is emphatically not, and for a sudden swerve it will do nothing.

It's all to do with how your ass gyroscopically progresses. I should start a wikipedia entry about it.

Steve

[Shagz]

I found this Youtube video cleared things up for me.

Although, like the others have said, I wouldn't worry about it at the moment.



And if you don't like embedded videos, here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEKdFNpsz48

[Jantar]

..... It's steering with the ass that I struggle with. How does it work?

It doesn't. The only way in which a motorcycle can turn is when there is a force applied at an angle to the direction of travel. This force can be from gravity, or from a change in direction of the front tyre (friction).

At very low speeds we turn by changing the direction of the front tyre and we balance the turn by leaning with our body. This is actually very tricky to get right, and why most "drops" happen at very speed.

As the speed increases we get to the stage that the gyroscopic forces (centrical progression and centripital reaction) come into play. There is a speed that will differ from bike to bike where the gyroscopic forces will overcome any attempt to lean with the body, and this is where CS begins. We all do it, although for many riders they don't recognise that they are doing it. Moving the arse only helps position the center of gravity and hence the angle of lean. It doesn't change the total forces acting to cause the bike to change direction. Moving their ass only gives their donkeysomething fresh to eat.

When people talk of steering with their ass, it is actually their donkey that is doing the talking for them.