First, and foremost, I'm glad that you are okay and that there are no injured riders in this story!
Second, thanks for putting it up so we can all think about the situation and reflect on our own skill levels and reactions, etc.
Cogito ergo zoom
First, and foremost, I'm glad that you are okay and that there are no injured riders in this story!
Second, thanks for putting it up so we can all think about the situation and reflect on our own skill levels and reactions, etc.
fuckin grumpy leave me alone
rep 4 honesty and sharing , glad ur ok dude
F/F
"Kiwi Biker, still a great place despite the mods "
"Would crawl over broken glass before owning Suzuki"
The only reason I only ride in the Iron man Class is I have no friends left to enter the two man events,
my own fault really.
Come warm yourself by the fire
Its good that you got the wakeup call. And I notice a few here are slagging you off for it - do this, do that. Because clearly its very easy to tell someone to ride, teach them the errors of their ways through the internet. I mean we all type while riding at the same time don't we?
I have one simple set of questions - I will let you decided what I would have done in that situation.
Where were you looking?
Where were you going?
How did you know you had crossed the line?
What was past the car at that moment?
What was to the left of the car at that moment?
What told you it was too fast in that corner? the sign on the side of the road?
There is no point saying "I should've done this" what specifically do you think you did wrong? I can say now that your speed could have been the least of your problems.
e mare libertas
Do you actually fail to understand the "learn to control a machine in a safe environment, then use those skills in a dangerous environment" thing, or are you just trolling?Originally Posted by Ixion
I will respond regardless, for the benefit of our many and various Gentle Readers.
Riding on a track does not result in an instant lobotomy and inability to understand what the possibility of oncoming traffic on the road means.
That argument, so commonly put forward by people who haven't been to any trackdays (recently) and are attempting to justify their abstinence, is entirely fallacious.
In fact, riding practice on the track results in a heightened awareness of the difference between the track and the road.
Oncoming vehicles on the road, not to mention the road surface, weather conditions, and other hazards, become variables that one can deal with using the additional brain power that one's newly ingrained motor skills leave free to devote to situational awareness.
Track time saves lives.
kiwibiker is full of love, an disrespect.
- mikey
Forum whore
Based on the behaviour I not infrequently observe by gixxer riders and similar, it doesn't work.
Almost all have attended track days. Yet they ride as if the road were a race track
(Not saying that there are not safe gixxer riders - merely that a lot aren't, and those that aren't are almost always track day enthusiasts).
A race track is a place where people race. By definition. The quaint euphemism "track day" is handy for fooling insurance companies : it should not fool us.
Riding is a conditioned behaviour. I have spent all my riding life conditioning myself not to ride at an unsafe speed (which, granted, may be more than the speed limit); to always ensure that there is plenty of "reserve" in every corner; ditto with braking, to brake early enough that I have braking in reserve if needed; to assume that around every corner is danger, and ensure I can stop in half the clear distance ahead; and so on. These are survival skills.
None of them are assisted by racing. Quite the reverse. The rider who heads home on the road after a "track day" has spent his day conditioning his behaviour to go as fast as he dare (and a bit faster still); to leave nothing in reserve (doesn't win races); to assume that every corner is clear, that there are no hazards (that's what flag marshals are for) ; to brake as late as possible , as hard as possible; to ignore such precepts as "able to stop ... etc". After conditioning himself thus, it is no wonder that he will carry that behaviour over to the road on his way home. And to his ride round the Coromandel next weekend (it's not called the CoroGP for nothing).
But, is he a safer rider as a result. I think not. Indeed , I am certain not.
Would I do a "track day". No. Firstly, I would certainly make a fool of myself, because I would be unable to "uncondition" myself, to abandon the principles of safe riding that I have acquired over the years. I would ride on the track as if I were on the public road, a manifest nonsense.
Secondly, I do not WANT to "uncondition" myself.
Thirdly, nor am I interested in learning how to ride faster. I learned long ago that I am not a fast rider, and do not want to be. The only thing I am good at is not crashing and hurting myself. I rather like being good at that. . Why would I attend a track day to learn skill that are directly contrary to that only thing I am good at?
i got lucky too - know how you feel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEi9QBmgthM
e mare libertas
If you say so. However, I prefer to separate the safety-conscious road riding mindset and the acquisition of bike-control skills in a safe environment.
One should not be (and is not, unless you make it so in your own mind) exclusive of the other.
The day may well come when your imperfect judgement makes 'slowly enough' not quite slow enough. And, in the absence of bike control skills that go beyond your daily road riding, you will then most likely come a cropper.
It may happen, it may not. But I would rather make the safe bet of assuming that my judgement may be imperfect and may require backing up with control skill.
Ixion. You do know what a syllogism is, don't you?
Don't try logical fallacies out on me, dude. C'mon!
For those who don't know what I'm on about, I'm pointing out that the fact that someone went to a trackday once and then was seen to ride unsafely on the road does not invalidate the concept of learning to control your motorcycle in a safe environment.
It just means that that particular guy was an idiot.
And, Gentle Reader, you are not an idiot. Are you?
That is simply incorrect. Repeat that with a straight face and hand on heart after attending a MotoTT day, and I might grant you the right to say it.
However, you are wrong in that supposition, formed without any experience of what you speak of.
The environment at the track (and on the track) is enormously different between a race meet and one of the insurance-company-blessed trackdays.
Do you think the people from the insurance companies are not there at the trackdays, carefully scrutinising events and sniffing the vibes? Give them some credit. They know what they're doing when they offer cover.
kiwibiker is full of love, an disrespect.
- mikey
Forum whore
Your mangled quote cannot be justified. I have never implied that I (or anyone else) should not learn anything further. Indeed, I hope that I am constantly learning. What one is learning is the question. And for my riding , on ordinary New Zealand roads, learning better how to avoid that SUV coming toward me on my side of the road is considerably more useful than learning how my motorcycle handles at 250 kph down the back straight.
And I'm not going to learn anything about how to deal with that SUV on a race track. I think I said below that if they held track days that had some relevance to road riding, I'd certainly be a starter. Sheer speed , going as fast as possible , I do not think the best area to focus learning time on.
If I DO want to know how it handles at 200kph+ , I would prefer that the "how" relate to ordinary NZ roads, potholed, adverse cambered etc - not to an artificial super smooth surface that I will never encounter in my daily riding.
one swallow does not a summer make. But when I see many many swallows, I'm going to reckon winter's over. And when I see that many many people who attend sessions which claimedly make for safer riding , riding in manifestly unsafe ways, I will assume that the said sessions are not very effective.For those who don't know what I'm on about, I'm pointing out that the fact that someone went to a trackday once and then was seen to ride unsafely on the road does not invalidate the concept of learning to control your motorcycle in a safe environment.
Which is not doubt, why the proponents of racers being required to sit an exam before getting a race licence (here ) suggest that track days should be a prerequisite for a race licenceThe environment at the track (and on the track) is enormously different between a race meet and one of the insurance-company-blessed trackdays
" I actually propsed to Paul Pav a year or so ago that to get a ROAD/sealed track race licence that you should attend at least one track day --the likes of MotoTT BEFORE being allowed to race."
And
"I'd envisage there being at least 2 or 3 "endorsed" riders at most track-days who could follow a trackdayer who "wants to try out racing" around the track and sign their license to say they rode competently"
Seems pretty clear that the racers regard MotoTT as "racing lite" (I wonder what the 'TT' in the name signifies ? )
e mare libertas
The entire infield of, say, Taupo track, is generally ridden at speeds that would be legal on the open road.
The back straight doesn't teach you much other than how to keep your head down over the tank.
Which is why, f'rinstance, MotoTT is now running its Taupo trackdays with a chicane added to the middle of the back straight.
Quite untrue. You're going to learn how to brake and turn your motorcycle faster than you thought possible. When the SUV hoves into view, you'll have no time for anything but instinct.
And if your motorcycle control skills aren't up to taking the escape option, you're fucked.
Once again; correlation does not make for causation.
You see many fools on motorcycles not riding to the conditions; were it not for trackdays, there could just as easily be many more dead fools.
The benefits for people who aren't fools should be obvious.
Safer is as safer does. Riding on the track teaches you to control your motorcycle. What you do with that is up to you.
It's a pity that the same isn't a requirement for a road licence.
Of course race organisers prefer to have racers who have done some motorcycle control training. The fact that that's a good idea in a race situation is a truism.
The fact that it's a good idea in an open-road situation should be a truism, too.
It stands for 'track time', as a matter of fact.
kiwibiker is full of love, an disrespect.
- mikey
Hardcore Biker
Mate I did a bit of what you say, I learnt this from my motorcrossing days
when trying to stay on a narrow track through the bush. No sweeping bends there you come across corners too fast quickly and have to push the bike down.
I felt my self doing this to miss that car, oddly I have never done it on my road bike before.
Maybe its what saved my bacon, who knows.
I wasnt gonna mention it as I couldnt bother with the detail, but since you mention it...
For those that dont know what I'm on about, its moving to the opposite side of the bike you would normally, ie left hand bend , you move your weight to the right of the bike a bit , push down on the bars as though you are countersteering but instead of hanging off the bike, you push it into a greater lean angle by weighting the opposite side, hard to explain , but it does help, when you have no other option, and all the conventional methods of correct cornering have gone out the window.
I found my self doing it about 3 times in about a second if that makes sense.
You see moto cross riders doing it more than track racers, watch them on tv when they have almost run out of track, but not quite.
Not something I would mention in the "book of good riding practices" but it does work all the same. Maybe a life saver,
Yes You raised a good point, glad you mentioned it.
Forum whore
Except that, unfortunately, I have encountered said SUV on a steep downhill right hander , with two nasty potholes ,a patch of gravel and a cliff on one side. None of my track day stuff included any of the above . In such a situation I am very certain that instincts fostered on a race track will lead to disaster.
It teaches you to control your motorcycle in the totally unnatural context of a racetrack. I am unconvinced that it teaches anything worthwhile in the totally different context of the public road.Safer is as safer does. Riding on the track teaches you to control your motorcycle. What you do with that is up to you.
Indeed? Actually if it really stood for, and indicated 'Tourist Trophy', I would probably be quite keen since the TT was run (IoM still is) over public roads. Real world roads. A track day on THAT track would certainly be worth doing .
It stands for 'track time', as a matter of fact.
I don't agree with this either.Riding on the track is like practice time at home; you can take it slowly and repeat bits over and over until you can play them as quickly and as accurately as you need to
If I find a corner, or sequence of corners, on the open road, that I feel I am not quite comfortable about, I can ride through them , (safely) do a U turn and go back, and repeat as often as I wish. I have sometimes done this a dozen times or more.
I can't do that on a race track, after the corner I must continue right around the track to get back to repeat the corner. And I am quite certain that my sedentary progress at 120kph or so would quickly (and properly) have me blackflagged as a danger to the other participants (can't quite call them competitors I suppose), belting along at 300kph. So I don't think a race track is even very useful for practicing the racing type corners, let alone the far more challenging ones found in the real world.
Forum whore
Great,you need to put all those skills to work in your road riding.Your off road skills will be much more use to you on SH22 than track days....it's certainly not a race track.
In and out of jobs, running free
Waging war with society
e mare libertas
Once again, I must point out that you're writing about something you haven't actually experienced. You make many assumptions about what it's like to ride on a track, and how it relates to motorcycling on the road, without having actually done it.
Perhaps you should give it a go? Just to get some moral authority for your pronouncements, like.
G'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan.
Don't be silly. Surely you're aware that at (f'rinstance) MotoTT days, riders go out in four different groups, organised by experience level, the speed they wish to travel at, and the type of bike they're riding.
Progressing at 120kph, in fact, would put you right out of the slowest group. Your blistering pace would make the middle-aged ladies on their 250cc cruisers uncomfortable, and you would be moved to a different group with riders of your own level.
Because trackdays are all about providing a safe environment, and significant speed differentials are unsafe.
You would, of course, be free to watch the 'belting along at 300kph' types practice their riding during their session, from behind the safety of the pit lane wall...
Trackdays are not race meets.
I'm going to start nagging you to come along to one, now.
kiwibiker is full of love, an disrespect.
- mikey
Ultimate keyboard Warrior
Funny enough, I ran wide on a corner on my HD a few weeks back, entering the corner too fast, too high a gear and positioned too close to the shoulder (and not paying enough attention) as soon as the alarm bells went off it was too late, My tightest line put me into the gravel.
Now, The funky shit is, once I went off the road, into the dirt, gravel, grass, rocks, I got that damn bike semi-under control and held my line all the way around the corner, A 300KG out of control HD.Sure I dropped her right at the end but she was a stunning bit of saving my arse if I do say so.
I put it down to 20 years of dirt bikes,Though I'm a little concerned that I can hold a line better on the dirt then on a nice bit of road....
The instructions are simple...
See? Should have done a trackday.
Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?
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