Countersteering advice...

[george formby]

[QUOTE=magicmonkey;1129481364]

Weighting the outside peg, while far from being second nature, is making me feel a lot more comfortable around corners, the bike just feels more planted and secure on the road. it's almost as if by forcing more weight onto the outside you're forcing the tires onto the road more and giving yourself more of a contact patch (that's right folks, I'm getting to know the lingo too!). That might not be what actually happens but it makes enough sense in my mind for me to visualise it like that so it’s good enough for me. I still need to spend a lot of time practicing this to get comfortable with it as it's a forced response at the moment but, as with the countersteering, practice will make it second nature eventually.

The other thing I've been playing with is using the throttle to change the line, as I'm on a GN there just isn't enough acceleration to make the corner go wider (and I'm not comfortable accelerating hard while in a corner just yet) but letting off the gas will tighten it up pretty smartish, quite a bit more than I was expecting as well! So another thing I'm going to have to spend a bit of time on is learning about throttle control in corners and at higher speeds (I do a lot of riding in traffic so my slow speed throttle control gets daily work and is improving as quickly as it needs to).


Good on ya! Reads like your noticing when you have the bike nicely balanced & under control with the throttle & how it will react to your input. May you enjoy many years of such pleasures.

[magicmonkey]

Good on ya! Reads like your noticing when you have the bike nicely balanced & under control with the throttle & how it will react to your input. May you enjoy many years of such pleasures.

yeah, I'm starting to have some really good fun on the bike now and pushing myself just a little bit as well. Quite often I'll be pottering along thinking "this is why I got a bike!"

[discotex]

yeah, I'm starting to have some really good fun on the bike now and pushing myself just a little bit as well. Quite often I'll be pottering along thinking "this is why I got a bike!"

On ya.... But one thing.....

You're moving into the dangerous phase where you're good enough to be travelling at speed a lot (still within the speed limit mind) but your skills aren't actually as honed as you think they are - i.e. they're still not automatic in a crisis.

There's no other way though this period except to ride more and build up kms (except perhaps a beginner group at a trackday). Just remember to keep your ego in check and not get too cocky or complacent and you'll be fine.

[magicmonkey]

You're moving into the dangerous phase ...

That's exactly what I though when I was out yesterday! I decided that it would be best to decide exactly how I was going to push myself before actually pushing myself and sticking to the plan, hopefully with a bit of discipline I'll come outof the learners phase without a scratch; hopefully!

[george formby]

That's exactly what I though when I was out yesterday! I decided that it would be best to decide exactly how I was going to push myself before actually pushing myself and sticking to the plan, hopefully with a bit of discipline I'll come outof the learners phase without a scratch; hopefully!

Focus on riding well, not quickly. Observation, anticipation, balance, control, lines etc. Put all your good road riding skills together & you end up travelling safely & relatively quickly as a bonus. If you decide to try & find the bikes or your limits, you probably will. Save that for your trackday.
I wish their had been forums when I started, but then again I would have had to invent a computer to use them.

[p.dath]

Weighting the outside peg, while far from being second nature, is making me feel a lot more comfortable around corners, the bike just feels more planted and secure on the road. it's almost as if by forcing more weight onto the outside you're forcing the tires onto the road more and giving yourself more of a contact patch (that's right folks, I'm getting to know the lingo too!).

Keith Code talks about this in his books (Twist II from memory). I may not be recalling this 100% - but the jist is right.

As you enter a corner the countersteering is done by opposing the gyroscopic effect of the FRONT wheel.
Once you are leaned over countersteering is done by opposing the gyroscopic effect of the REAR wheel.

Actually it think it was a ratio, but I don't want to turn this into an essay.

So he says going into a corner lean/push/pull on the handlebars. However once actually leaned over and *in the corner* you countersteer more effectively by leaning on the outside footpeg. You can still countersteer using the "bars", but the footpegs become more effective.

This exceeds my current skill level. I've had mixed results personally.

...
The other thing I've been playing with is using the throttle to change the line, as I'm on a GN there just isn't enough acceleration to make the corner go wider (and I'm not comfortable accelerating hard while in a corner just yet) but letting off the gas will tighten it up pretty smartish, quite a bit more than I was expecting as well! So another thing I'm going to have to spend a bit of time on is learning about throttle control in corners and at higher speeds (I do a lot of riding in traffic so my slow speed throttle control gets daily work and is improving as quickly as it needs to).

This is also covered in the Keith Code books. Your two tyres make a contact patch on the road.
While mid-corner the "perfect" ratio "on the road" is to have 40% of your total contact patch with the front tyre, and 60% with the rear tyre. This is achieved by applying 0.1G to 0.2G of acceleration (that means gentle acceleration).

Another reason for not messing with the throttle mid-corner is that it unsettles the suspension. If you suddenly close the throttle you load up the front suspension and make the front of the bike dive.

This is also why people get into trouble when they close the throttle on a corner. The instantly reduce their rear contact patch, and at the same time reduce their traction. Also because the countersteering effect is more prominent with the rear tyre at this point, you also reduce your "steering" ability, which in turn stands the bike up, etc.


So my suggestion mid-corner - you want smooth light acceleration. Resist the urge to close the throttle if something goes bad.



For comparison, on the track he says the perfect ratio is between 40/60 and 30/70 (aka, on the track you can apply a little more more acceleration mid-corner).
But don't mess with the ratio on the road.

[magicmonkey]

Keith Code talks about this in his books (Twist II from memory). I may not be recalling this 100% - but the jist is right.

As you enter a corner the countersteering is done by opposing the gyroscopic effect of the FRONT wheel.
Once you are leaned over countersteering is done by opposing the gyroscopic effect of the REAR wheel.

Actually it think it was a ratio, but I don't want to turn this into an essay.

So he says going into a corner lean/push/pull on the handlebars. However once actually leaned over and *in the corner* you countersteer more effectively by leaning on the outside footpeg. You can still countersteer using the "bars", but the footpegs become more effective.

This exceeds my current skill level. I've had mixed results personally.



This is also covered in the Keith Code books. Your two tyres make a contact patch on the road.
While mid-corner the "perfect" ratio "on the road" is to have 40% of your total contact patch with the front tyre, and 60% with the rear tyre. This is achieved by applying 0.1G to 0.2G of acceleration (that means gentle acceleration).

Another reason for not messing with the throttle mid-corner is that it unsettles the suspension. If you suddenly close the throttle you load up the front suspension and make the front of the bike dive.

This is also why people get into trouble when they close the throttle on a corner. The instantly reduce their rear contact patch, and at the same time reduce their traction. Also because the countersteering effect is more prominent with the rear tyre at this point, you also reduce your "steering" ability, which in turn stands the bike up, etc.


So my suggestion mid-corner - you want smooth light acceleration. Resist the urge to close the throttle if something goes bad.



For comparison, on the track he says the perfect ratio is between 40/60 and 30/70 (aka, on the track you can apply a little more more acceleration mid-corner).
But don't mess with the ratio on the road.

eek! While I'm sure that'll come in very useful at some point in the future I think you've gone way beyond my skill level there, I've not even got 1000K's in yet!

I have got a copy of the Twist of the Wrist II book which I've had a bit of a browse through and decided not to read again until I'm more comfortable with the basics ...

[MSTRS:Me]

The thing about technical advice (here, TOTW, etc) is most of us don't need to understand it to know that it works. We've (all) been there and done the practising, experimenting bit, often with painful results, and gradually learned what works and what doesn't. Even though you can get the answers as to what to do and when, you don't need to work out why. Unless you are an "engineer", of course!!

[R-Soul]

That's exactly what I though when I was out yesterday! I decided that it would be best to decide exactly how I was going to push myself before actually pushing myself and sticking to the plan, hopefully with a bit of discipline I'll come outof the learners phase without a scratch; hopefully!

No - you have it wrong- you never come out of the "learners phase", and the day that you feel "confident" riding anywhere close to you or your bikes' limits is a REAALLLY bad day. In fact even just riding in traffic in general. Never lose the respect, or get overconfident. And never think that you know it all. It can turn around and bite you in the ass so fast that your head will spin.

When you lose the respect (fear?), then you are not as aware.

If you ever feel too confident on your bike, do yourself a favour - search for "bike crashes" on Youtube. You will see the most skilled riders - that are pushing the envelope or not- get into lethal situations so fast that even their abilities mean nothing. I know it sounds depressing - but it is actually the reality that we need to prevent at least the plain dumb accidents. And another thing- if you are going to be screwing around pulling wheelies/stoppies etc, for God's sake do it on a track or abandoned airfield.

[R-Soul]

The thing about technical advice (here, TOTW, etc) is most of us don't need to understand it to know that it works. We've (all) been there and done the practising, experimenting bit, often with painful results, and gradually learned what works and what doesn't. Even though you can get the answers as to what to do and when, you don't need to work out why. Unless you are an "engineer", of course!!

And just what is wrong with engineers?

[MSTRS:Me]

And just what is wrong with engineers?

Nothing. Nothing at all. Wonderful people. Salt of the earth. A bit analytical. Perhaps. But nice people, all the same. Some of my best friends are engineers.
Was that enough?

[Fluffy Cat]

If you are rationalizing it.... consciously bringing it to the fore in your mind...whilst doing it, you are missing the point. It has to come naturally. Take your time ride lots, do some track time(does not matter what bike you have).
It has to be and is intuitive. If it isn't ride the bike some more. The code books are fun/good but not as good as doing it. Learnt a lot doing track time, watching the likes of Andrew Stroud etc (dont get me wrong i wasn't following him, was getting passed!).

[Maki]

This is also covered in the Keith Code books. Your two tyres make a contact patch on the road.
While mid-corner the "perfect" ratio "on the road" is to have 40% of your total contact patch with the front tyre, and 60% with the rear tyre. This is achieved by applying 0.1G to 0.2G of acceleration (that means gentle acceleration).

That is very interesting. I find cornering feels very wish washy until I apply a bit of throttle. The the bike feels a lot more planted and secure then...

[MSTRS:Me]

That is very interesting. I find cornering feels very wish washy until I apply a bit of throttle. The the bike feels a lot more planted and secure then...

Exactly. P.dath/Keith Code explained why...

[R-Soul]

Nothing. Nothing at all. Wonderful people. Salt of the earth. A bit analytical. Perhaps. But nice people, all the same. Some of my best friends are engineers.
Was that enough?

hehe... just...