Countersteering advice...

[magicmonkey]

Yup that was the gist of it - you use your legs and back to hold your bodyweight, not your arms, since it tenses them up and makes control a lot more difficult.

heh, that's a bloody hard one to learn! I've been telling myself about this every time I get on a bike, every time I notice myself doing it and every time I do something which might lead me to grab the bars; I still haven't quite got the hang of it but I'm getting there :s

[CookMySock]

heh, that's a bloody hard one to learn! I've been telling myself about this every time I get on a bike, every time I notice myself doing it and every time I do something which might lead me to grab the bars; I still haven't quite got the hang of it but I'm getting there :s

It is. You don't have to ride that way all the time, but if you plan to tip in deeply then try to remove the weight off the bars, slide your arse back, steer with your wrists or thumbs.. Notice the bike is nice and stable once leaned way over.

Steve

[R-Soul]

It is. You don't have to ride that way all the time, but if you plan to tip in deeply then try to remove the weight off the bars, slide your arse back, steer with your wrists or thumbs.. Notice the bike is nice and stable once leaned way over.

Steve

Ultimately the bike is better engineered than the rider to control itself...

[R-Soul]

...weighting the outside peg only happens when I'm thinking about it...

I must be honest that weighting teh outside peg makes no sense to me at all and I am not sure is correct. This is why: If you weight the inside peg, you get just as much stability as teh outside peg, and your weight is already naturally on the inside peg if your body centreline is inside of the bike's centreline (And I mean really push hard down on the peg to stabilise it). By transferring weight to the outside peg, you force the bike to lean over inwards- not what you want, since the bike performs better suspension-wise and has more grip when in a more upright position.

I do a long sweeping curve onto the mortorway (Onewa Rd, North Shore) at speed every day, and have been experiementing on this bend with weighting, and it just makes so much more sense having weight on the inside peg.

I will check it up in that book "Total Control" as well.

Any comments from other riders out there?

[p.dath]

I must be honest that weighting teh outside peg makes no sense to me at all and I am not sure is correct.

It's like the counter-balancing thing, but the opposite. It is discussed in the Twist of the Wrist books by Keith Code. I can't recall the reason why any more, but I do recall it saying to put weight on the outside peg while cornering.

It will probably have something to do with opposing forces or something.

I don't find it makes much difference myself. I think it has a greater effect at track speed. Shifting your bodies weight or even just lifting an arse cheek while cornering has a bigger effect.

[R-Soul]

It's like the counter-balancing thing, but the opposite. It is discussed in the Twist of the Wrist books by Keith Code. I can't recall the reason why any more, but I do recall it saying to put weight on the outside peg while cornering.

It will probably have something to do with opposing forces or something.

I don't find it makes much difference myself. I think it has a greater effect at track speed. Shifting your bodies weight or even just lifting an arse cheek while cornering has a bigger effect.

Sure, moving your body's centreline to the inside is always going to make you turn more, but I cannot reconcile this effect with putting your bodyweight on the outside peg.

This is because you would have to partially straighten your outside leg while moving to the opposite side, and thereby cause the bike to lean over more - which you dont want to do. And I get the same stabilising effect with weight on inside peg and its much easier to accomplish, so why do it?

[p.dath]

Sure, moving your body's centreline to the inside is always going to make you turn more, but I cannot reconcile this effect with putting your bodyweight on the outside peg.

I'll try and look it up tonight in Twist of the Wrist for you.

[R-Soul]

It's like the counter-balancing thing, but the opposite. It is discussed in the Twist of the Wrist books by Keith Code. I can't recall the reason why any more, but I do recall it saying to put weight on the outside peg while cornering.

It will probably have something to do with opposing forces or something.

I don't find it makes much difference myself. I think it has a greater effect at track speed. Shifting your bodies weight or even just lifting an arse cheek while cornering has a bigger effect.

Check this link - from the Kevin Schwanz Suzuki school
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ho...ips/index.html

Check the points 12 and 13 specifically.

So this means that weighting teh inside peg is Ok going into the corner - when your body wight is on that side anyway. Makes more sense.

For dirt bikes and motocross you weight the outside peg -
see this link:

http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/me...3F3095D73E4646

But this is because you want the MX bike to lean in a corner for motocross and you want you body to remain upright through the corner and the bike to move under you. This is also explained in the Total Control book. I think it is because the suspension on MX bikes has so much more travel, and traction is not ultimately limited by the suspension, but more by the ground surface. But I am not sure- need to read that part again...

But for street bikes you want the bike to stay as upright as possible for the suspension to function better for better traction.

[R-Soul]

I'll try and look it up tonight in Twist of the Wrist for you.

thansk- cool

[R-Soul]

check out this webiste-

http://www.megarider.com/Articles/survival.html

While I have not read their literature, just the site itself makes a lot of sense safety wise.

[MSTRS:Me]

I don't follow your reasoning, Mr Sole...
Weighting the outside peg settles the bike in two ways. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction. First, because the rider pushes on the outside peg, their body is naturally pushed the other way, therefore increasing the body's mass towards the inside of the bike and assisting with rider lean. Secondly, the bike's suspension works better when it is not under so much compression load...ie the bike will stand up slightly, taking the load off the shocks.
The rider being further off towards the inside counteracts the lesser lean of the bike.
The end result is that the bike turns smoother and feels more planted.

[R-Soul]

I don't follow your reasoning, Mr Sole...
Weighting the outside peg settles the bike in two ways. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction. First, because the rider pushes on the outside peg, their body is naturally pushed the other way, therefore increasing the body's mass towards the inside of the bike and assisting with rider lean. .

When you look at the practical implentation of what you are saying, it makes sense to rather load the inside peg.

When you push on the outsuide peg, you dont push inwardly, you push upwardly. The bike happens to be leaning inwardly,so pushing upwardly means you are effectively moving your body inwardly (although you dont really want it high up, you just want your body's centre of mass inside the bikes centre line).

You get the same inward pushing effect by pushing down on the inside peg. The difference is that when you push on the outside peg, you straighten your leg more as its further away, forcing the bike to lean more (as you bum and body is on the other side of the bike). When the bike is leaned over more, its suspension does not work as well as if it is upright.

It probably is all down to what feels more comnfotable for the rider, and the style of the bike.

Secondly, the bike's suspension works better when it is not under so much compression load...ie the bike will stand up slightly, taking the load off the shocks.
The rider being further off towards the inside counteracts the lesser lean of the bike.

The mass on the bike remains the same and the suspension loading remains the same, albeit at different angles because of the geometries involved.

When you look at the bike from the side, the pegs are equidistant from the wheels and should have an equal effect on the suspension (leverage-wise) regardless of which side the weight is on.

The only thing I can think of is that the most rigid connection or coupling between the rider and bike is brought to a lower level and made more stable. And in such a case the lower peg is the inside one again (although this should not make much difference at all). The centre of mass of the rider remains as is, as the rider's position does not change from when his feet are on the pegs normally, to when his feet are pushing hard on the pegs.

My own prefernce is for the inside peg as I have shorter legs, but it may be more comfortable on the outside peg for other riders or different bike styles (eg, sports v cruiser).

The end result is that the bike turns smoother and feels more planted

It does so with the weight on the inside or outside peg.

[Dan Mapp]

This thread is getting way too technical.

Just ride, have fun, don't think too much about what you're doing...focus your energy being aware of your surroundings.

It's incredible...bikes go round corners, regardless if you're focused on counter steering or not.

What he said

[Dan Mapp]

They do, until its' rider gets a bad fright, and then "the bike" stands itself upright and leaves the road, killing its rider. Obviously, this is a problem.

There is no place on the road for riders who can't instantly and decisively take evasive action in an emergency.

Steve

What a knob

[R-Soul]

What a knob

No he is right - if you have countersteering ingrained, you can react in an emergency, not rely on your fright reaction to move your weight or anything else to teh correct side of teh bike.


As far as turning goes, moving your weight around has about 20% of the effectiveness of countersteering. ESPECIALLY in emergencies when you are freezing up.

Having the RIGHT reflexes and techniques ingrained is absolutely critical - and I can attest that bikes dont just "go round corners, regardless if you're focused on counter steering or not".

I was involved in two relatively serious accidents before I learnt countersteering - which could have been avoided had I known about it- because nobody had mentioned it to me as a technique, and because I had not bothered to "think too much".

To quote the Megarider website:

"There are six main survival skills a rider needs to avoid/survive about 95% of all motorcycle crashes. This 95% of crashes encompasses virtually all of the life-threatening accidents.

While some of the skills are relatively sophisticated, they are not beyond the learning ability of novice riders.

The skills and their related crashes are:

CRASH and SKILL

Collision with turning car:

Direction perspective,
manoeuvre anticipation,
crash survival,
countersteering,
risk management,
emergency braking.

Failure to Negotiate Corner:

Direction perspective,
emergency braking,
crash survival.

[theres hould be countersteering here too imo]

Head-On Collision

Risk management,
direction perspective,
emergency braking,
crash survival,
countersteering. "


You go right ahead with your hippie-free-love-ideas-of-bikes-just-going-around-corners-as-part-of-the-universe thinking. And hopefully you'll make it through your first crash to come back and figure it out properly.