needs to work harder
They won't, though. This is why motorcyclists are getting it in the neck. Which do you think would be easier to raise the political impetus for: Taxing bikers; Taxing sports; Taxing DIY.Originally Posted by ROBMW
If we, as a nation, accept a reduction in the coverage of ACC then all this shit goes away. More to the point the people who pick up spinal injuries playing rugby get to share the pain - pun intended.
Dave
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Fair weather rider
I don't know any Rockridge Road
L-Plate Rider
"2. We all know that bike accidents are caused by cagers. Or not. So unless you have evidence none of us know about, again, no preaching to the choir."
I seem to recall John Baker (John Baker Insurance) saying at one of the Ulysses AGM's that 40% of the claims he paid out on motorbikes were sva's (single vehicle accidents). 40%!!!!!!
needs to work harder
Having thought about this for a minute I have one final thought:
This is not about us, it's about doing us first so they can do the big problems later against a background of "well, bikers lost XYZ, you're going to lose it too".
Dave
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Forum whore
That is the one issue that I fear will hamper BRONZ's handling of this issue.
Let's hope those words were just Ixion's and not BRONZ's.
Moped rider
Ok, my crack at explaining what it shows - it shows the total cost for all on road accidents 2007/8 as $351m.
Then it breaks down as to what the injured person was doing at the time - whether in a car, truck, bike, walking, etc. Motorcycling accounts for $63m.
If I'm reading this right, then if say you were to instead get all motorcyclists to sign up for a private insurance to cover their own costs, then that insurance would cost each person exactly the same as ACC are suggesting. However such a system would have an advantage that it covers a person rather than a vehicle - which is fairer to multiple vehicle owners. The present registration system could allow for this with the addition of a special type of multi-vehicle registration to a person - which could easily be policed because if a cop pulls a vehicle over they just need to match the drivers license with the rego. But then nobody else would be allowed to drive your car/bike of course, unless you procured an extra dispensation for such named drivers.
Another big difference in this case is that most (3rd party) insurance companies apportion blame so you cover other people you injure - or other people cover you - which would change the numbers once you account for who causes the accident - however ACC is a personal insurance (1st party) only for yourself whether you caused the accident or not. A 3rd party system would have the advantage that it could tax alcohol, cellphones, fatty foods, and other accident factors.
So I guess what we really want to happen is that the ACC spend for motorcyclists goes down - i.e. fewer people make claims while on the road on a motorcycle. The only way this will happen is if there are fewer accidents or if they are less severe. Everybody wins when that happens.
The high cost of accidents being passed on to everybody is actually making people aware that it's too much - but ACC isn't the bad guy, they are just doing their job and pointing it out. We need to look at why the accidents are occurring and take that up with various agencies - not ACC however as I expect they are just doing their job.
So we need to reduce accidents, the costs associated with them will come down by themselves.
The alternative is to get a big monster truck with massive car climbing wheels, and drive it around maiming people - their ACC levies go up, but yours will be fine. That would be quickly outlawed I'm sure (probably by a different department - not ACC if I understand this correctly), then perhaps cars could be outlawed by the same principle.
Workin' Socially!
Has WIMA made a statement? They seem to be alive and well in Wellington - I'm not a member...anyone here?
My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog already thinks I am.
Unexpected Spanish inquisition
Seeing as everyone in NZ has the potential to benefit from ACC, would linking it to the IRD and making it part of the overall tax take be an option? At least that way they could spread the payment burden over nearly all the population? Fair and equal payments for all....
Just thinking aloud over a late night drink...
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares? ...He's a mile away and you've got his shoes
sem fiddy pilot
Horlicks?Just thinking aloud over a late night drink...
Member, sem fiddy appreciation society
Unexpected Spanish inquisition
Nah, not into paying for sex....Horlicks?
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares? ...He's a mile away and you've got his shoes
The Wise
What i don't under stand is why from 600cc+ you pay a higher levy? you can get just as serious injures on a motor scouter, the cost of rehabilitation would be the same.
The thing is on the bigger bikes, serious accidents usually end in death, no long term cost there.
On a side note, it has just cost me $372.32 to reg my Pajero of that, $279.09 is ACC levy.
add the bike reg F**K Im screwed. most motorcyclist also have cars so we end up paying twice which is where I find its not fare.
Why would you ride that long and that gnarly stuff if you don't have to, Its what we do, we love it.
Nathan Woods R.I.P.
You name it, I can bin it!
Not very often actually - and I suspect neither do you. In much the same way as all the discussions on sites like stuff.co.nz have comments saying "How many times do you see motorcyclists speeding at 120km/h between lanes of stopped traffic and scraping down the side of cars?" Not often either. I see a fair number of cyclists and motorcyclists in my daily commute, most are just trying to get to/from work with a minimum of hassle, but it's the 1 in 1000 that's misbehaving that sticks out in your mind.
Trying to deflect the argument onto someone else is counter productive. Personally I think that there is only a partial win available here for us anyway, but it will be worse if we don't even take that.
We can challenge the statistics, I'm pretty sure that they won't stand up to careful and insightful analysis. The numbers that have been presented are essentially useless, they've already been analysed and collated. If we can access the raw data there should be a lot of different ways of presenting it to support a lot of different arguments, depending on how you cut the stats.
Even if that (or another line of reasoning) works, I suspect we will only be playing into the hands of the ACC in any case. They don't really expect us to swallow this, this is the softener. I can see two alternatives here:
1) They are using us to deflect the increase that is going onto car registrations - the media are largely ignoring the comparatively small increase in automotive registrations and focussing on the large increase in bike regos.
2) They're trying to make ACC so expensive that we'll practically be begging them to privatise it in a few years.
I'm sure that this is not at all about balancing ACCs books, it's about politics.
Anyway, BRONZ membership form filled out and in an envelope, to be sent off first thing in the morning!
You name it, I can bin it!
He did say "or not".
I read that as saying that we shouldn't even be going there in the discussions. The issue of who causes the accidents is totally irrelevant and discussing it is not helpful.
Still rocking 2 Death Magnetic
The best thing we can do is get together and support each other in raising our voice against the government, so get to the next BRONZ meeting in Auckland, show your support, give us your thoughts.
Get your mates, mum and anyone else who supports motorbiking and be at the meeting!
I ride the dirt, I ride the tide
I search the outside, search inside
I know I'll always burn to be
Remind me of what left this outlaw torn
~ The Outlaw Torn (Metallica: Load 1996)
Scooter boy
All the other major non national parties are saying that national is making this whole ACC deficit up and I believe them (anyone remember the leaked conversations in National meetings where they said they were going to get rid of ACC - hell it was someone where I worked that recorded and released them . I told everyone I knew not to vote National if they wanted to keep ACC and free health care for accidents but no the anitsmacking bill screwed labour too much (even though National voted for it to) . Its pretty obvious that National is anti ACC and always has been. They tried to kill it in 1999 and 10 years on they are trying it on again. ACC kicks arse as a system. All of you saying we should have private insurance need your head read. Go to USA to see how it works - watch the movie SICKO - even CUBA has a better health care system then USA. All of you bitchin about the increase because you can't afford it are working and middle class ie not rich and they are the ones that get raped by private insurance companies - why do you think Obama is trying to change their system - its because it is shit and normal people get screwed - no worries if you are rich as you can pay for high insurance premiums and high ACC levies for that matter. So don't be fooled into getting rid of ACC - privatise it and you get the clusterfuck that is private power companies who keep hiking the price and lowing the amount of service (not to mention the multitude of other services that have been privatised so we get fucked more and more by big business (but they care about us don't they??).
Also - what makes you think an insurance company is going to cover you - according to the stats you are 16x more likely to have an injury then a car so what insurance company is going to insure you! If they do it is going to cost heaps. In the US they have dedicated teams that sole purpose is to screw you out of insurance payouts (oh you have two fucked eyes - well we are only going to pay to fix one as you only need one to function effectively - don't laugh this is a real case). Insurance companies here have already got these teams starting up - they get paid based on the number of people they can screw out of payouts. You can't vote out big business when you get fucked over.
ACC is fine the way it is with a few adjustments (ie stop paying out visitors to our country, criminals, welfare etc - I mean go to any other country and try to get free health care when on holiday - dream on what a bunch of mugs we are! Look out for people that live here first - if you can afford to come here to visit then you can pay some sort of ACC levee when you come in - are millions of visitors into NZ - charge them $50 each and you don't need to screw bikers (citizens) anymore).
The other thing that pisses me off is all these posts saying what about bikes, soccer, rugby etc etc why not make them pay as well - thats just what the govt wants! I don't know about you but I do other things as well as riding my motorbike and I am not that keen on getting arse raped in all my other activities as well. I agree that we need to protest this crazy increase in ACC levies but lets not give the govt and media a whole bunch of ammo to fuck the rest of sports as well. We will end up sitting at home watching tv as it will be to expensive to do anything else.
Any way that is my ramble. I hate National! John Key is rich fuckwit who made his money arse raping people the same way he trying to arse rape us! He has a whole bunch of rich insurance buddies who are all sitting around reading our posts going ha ha look at them all saying lets privatise health care - suckers!
I do agree with the posts regarding ACC levees that cover the person not the vehicle. This should be bought up in the media a lot more. This is double dipping at its worst.
OK... I'm spent
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