How about we take a deep breath...

[Paul in NZ]

Well, I guess the one thing we can all agree on, this sucks big time.

Someone wanted to know why shouldn’t motorcyclists pay for their own cover? That’s a fair question because it’s a no brainer that when your average motorcyclist does have an accident, its usually an expensive one. So on the face of it, it seems a reasonable argument that motorcyclists as a sector of society should pay their way and not expect to be cross subsidised by others, or is it?

Personally, this proposal greatly disturbs me on several levels. On a personal level, it is going to make running 2 or 3 classic motorcycles unaffordable for me and since I was looking forward to being one of those crusty old blokes pottering about in his shed with a few old bikes for company, you could say I’m disappointed. That retirement dream is looking unlikely now, there is no way you could justify the registration costs on a fixed income.

ACC is supposed to be a ‘no fault’ insurance scheme covering all New Zealanders. If you accept that employee ACC contributions have been risk associated for years, perhaps it is reasonable to move this risk profiling over to your transport of choice. Or is it? The fairness, unfairness of this really depends upon how finely you slice the loaf and understanding that increasing employee levies for companies that have a poor safety record is an incentive for those companies to improve safety and thus lower costs. Without giving the motorcyclist a equal opportunity to reduce costs by having a good safety record, the comparison does not hold up. Similarly, its patently absurd to think that a 50 (cough) something bloke on a 40 year old triumph 650 making something like 40bhp is a higher risk than a 19 year old on a new 600cc GSXR producing 140bhp. Grouping all motorcyclists together discourages responsible users and effectively it becomes a ban.

What the government has proposed has really grated with me. Not raising the fee but the way its been sold. Divide and conquer and FUD have been valid strategies for many years. The first thing I heard this morning was on Mike Hosking’s breakfast radio, ‘about time, I’ve seen them weaving in and out of traffic’ and ‘I was amazed the car drivers are subsidising motorcyclist at $70 a year’…. Erm – hang on… Not one mentioned on the show that car registrations are also going up. Surely if motorists are subsidising bikers then the car levy should now go down? Instead, they had identified the ‘bad’ group pushed forwards to take the blame and were happy with that.

So lets slice the loaf a little thinner. I have not had an accident for decades and to my knowledge I have never ever made a single claim on ACC related to motorcycling. I know people that have written off several new motorcycles, people that race motorcycles (un registered) and have had massive amounts of ACC funds spent repairing them and people that ride dirt bikes (again, high injury no rego) – why should I contribute to pay for these people through my insurance and acc levies? That’s not fair! Since we are going down this street, what about professional rugby players, indeed all rugby players – I don’t play rugby, I hardly watch it and it would have zero impact on my life if rugby ceased to exist, why should I contribute to it in an involuntary fashion? Skiers, snowboarders, soccer players, squash? Nope – sorry, not interested in sports starting with S and I don’t cycle, ride a horse, operate a power boat, sky dive, hang glide or play hockey, please remove all of those from my list as well.

Suddenly, this is getting silly and dare I say it, unreasonable so lets leave sports out of it and get back to transport.

If I get hit by a 4WD then it will do me more damage than a car so they should pay more, bloody 4WD’s, probably cars heavier than mine pose a risk (and potential extra expense) so lets ping them too… Ooops, getting silly again.

Given ACC’s founding principles, penalising a whole sector without providing a mechanism for responsible users to prove their ability to ride safely is unfair! That’s really what I object to…

[cs363]

On that note, this makes VERY interesting reading: http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/stati...aims/IS0800367

Check out the figures for rugby, netball, rugby league, snow skiing (and boarding), touch rugby and above all, seeing as it's a direct comparison being road users(unpaid for though, mind you) cyclists!

Then tell me we're not being shafted!

[cs363]

And we need to make sure that we DON'T come across like some rabid crowd from the French Revolution

Not disagreeing regarding the public face of the protest, but the 'rabble' in the French Revolution did get quite a good result, at least compared to the incumbent authorities at the time....

[Manxman]

On that note, this makes VERY interesting reading: http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/stati...aims/IS0800367

Check out the figures for rugby, netball, rugby league, snow skiing (and boarding), touch rugby and above all, seeing as it's a direct comparison being road users(unpaid for though, mind you) cyclists!

Then tell me we're not being shafted!

If I'm not mistaken, and after a quick once-over of these figures, it appears that there has been exponential growth in most of these categories since 2005.

In order to determine how to fix the ACC 'problem', I'd be looking more closely at the reasons for this.

My punt, is that there are two principle drivers behind the growth:

1)Is there a culture of:
a) "the state owes me something",
b) "I'm entitled to something from the state", or
c) "everyone else is scoring off the state, so why shouldn't I?"

I've deliberately made these essentially the same reasons, because I think that - essentially - could be the reason for the growth (there will always be a core of genuine, legitimate claims - I'm talking about the recent growth).

I see this in my work, where there is almost an mindset of epidemic proportions around 'entitlement' to stuff. Consequence of a Labour government perhaps?

2) My theory also proposes that there is a growing culture of referrals within the medical brethren. Is it that fewer are willing to make hard (or maybe not so hard) calls, therefore pass the buck and problem to another 'specialist', who doesn't want to make the hard call, etc....bingo, your costs grow on a vertical path.

Why can't ACC raise the criteria for qualifying for it, or reduce the 'soft claims' (not paying for dicks who injure themselves when committing as crime is a no-brainer, but surely there must be more?), or break the referral cycle?

I also note that the cost of cycling injuries has increased more than 3-fold since 2004, but motorcycling only 2.5-fold. Feck, even netball (a non-contact sport - allegedly, unless you're Australian) costs $10.6m - $3.4m more than us. Friggin dangerous sport that.

[cs363]

If I'm not mistaken, and after a quick once-over of these figures, it appears that there has been exponential growth in most of these categories since 2005.

In order to determine how to fix the ACC 'problem', I'd be looking more closely at the reasons for this.

My punt, is that there are two principle drivers behind the growth:

1)Is there a culture of:
a) "the state owes me something",
b) "I'm entitled to something from the state", or
c) "everyone else is scoring off the state, so why shouldn't I?"

I've deliberately made these essentially the same reasons, because I think that - essentially - could be the reason for the growth (there will always be a core of genuine, legitimate claims - I'm talking about the recent growth).

I see this in my work, where there is almost an mindset of epidemic proportions around 'entitlement' to stuff. Consequence of a Labour government perhaps?

2) My theory also proposes that there is a growing culture of referrals within the medical brethren. Is it that fewer are willing to make hard (or maybe not so hard) calls, therefore pass the buck and problem to another 'specialist', who doesn't want to make the hard call, etc....bingo, your costs grow on a vertical path.

Why can't ACC raise the criteria for qualifying for it, or reduce the 'soft claims' (not paying for dicks who injure themselves when committing as crime is a no-brainer, but surely there must be more?), or break the referral cycle?

I also note that the cost of cycling injuries has increased more than 3-fold since 2004, but motorcycling only 2.5-fold. Feck, even netball (a non-contact sport - allegedly, unless you're Australian) costs $10.6m - $3.4m more than us. Friggin dangerous sport that.

Yes, I would tend to agree with your views above. Those statistics also show the way ACC and the Minister are guilty of twisting the facts for their own ends.

[Ms Piggy]

Perception is everything. We need to be seen to be a responsible "group".
Kneejerk crowd mentallity will work against motorcyclists

Definitely.

[Qkchk:Me]

We really need to stop keyboard warrior tactics and co-ordinate a mass protest similar to the truckies one earlier this year. We need support from other clubs - BRONZ, Ulysses, WIMA, HOG etc

Numbers speak in volumes. Idle banter sucks bandwidth.

[Katman]

We really need to stop keyboard warrior tactics and co-ordinate a mass protest similar to the truckies one earlier this year. We need support from other clubs - BRONZ, Ulysses, WIMA, HOG etc

Numbers speak in volumes. Idle banter sucks bandwidth.

How about we wait and see what BRONZ have to suggest?

[Angusdog]

We really need to stop keyboard warrior tactics and co-ordinate a mass protest similar to the truckies one earlier this year. We need support from other clubs - BRONZ, Ulysses, WIMA, HOG etc

Numbers speak in volumes. Idle banter sucks bandwidth.

Can't be bothered reading all the dialogue about this, but count me in. A unified, rational voice from all concerned parties (BRONZ, bike industry, riders and so on) counts for a lot. I really want to be part of a protest ride to parliament - that's how these things are done, isn't it?

I'll keep an eye out for when you need me

[Elysium]

We really need to stop keyboard warrior tactics and co-ordinate a mass protest similar to the truckies one earlier this year. We need support from other clubs - BRONZ, Ulysses, WIMA, HOG etc

Numbers speak in volumes. Idle banter sucks bandwidth.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawagQ6lLrA&feature=related[/youtube]

[Qkchk:Me]

How about we wait and see what BRONZ have to suggest?

Agreed. Let's hope it doesn't have to get to the protest stage......... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Katman]

Agreed. Let's hope it doesn't have to get to the protest stage......... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm quite happy to protest.

I'm quite happy to partake in an act of civil disobedience.

I'm also quite happy to sit back for the moment and let BRONZ formulate the action they feel will best serve our purpose.

[Pussy]

I'm quite happy to protest.

I'm quite happy to partake in an act of civil disobedience.

I'm also quite happy to sit back for the moment and let BRONZ formulate the action they feel will best serve our purpose.

With you there, Katman.
This initial "wwwaaaahhh" fest won't achieve anything.
A carefully thought out, intelligent rebuttal probably will

[Genestho]

With you there, Katman.
This intial "wwwaaaahhh" fest won't achieve anything.
A carefully thought out, intelligent rebuttal probably will

Yea, there's a million reposts.

I too feel confident that BRONZ has it sorted, there's a game plan afoot.

The sleekist non-emotive plans take time, and there is until 10th November till submissions close. That's the time space right there.

No point rushing in like a mob outta control, hiss, roar, fart, cough, splutter. Done.

Build a good argument, plan, and allies - which doesn't take too much time. It's all there to piece together.

Chillax Breathe In/Breathe Out

[cs363]

Yea, there's a million reposts.

I too feel confident that BRONZ has it sorted, there's a game plan afoot.

The sleekist non-emotive plans take time, and there is until 10th November till submissions close. That's the time space right there.

No point rushing in like a mob outta control, hiss, roar, fart, cough, splutter. Done.

Build a good argument, plan, and allies - which doesn't take too much time. It's all there to piece together.

Chillax Breathe In/Breathe Out

And in the meantime, spend a measly $20 and join up to BRONZ, so you can be a part of an organised nationwide plan of action.

membership form here: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...4&d=1255578085