how do you get smoove cornering technique?

[FzerozeroT]

I tried searching for the "survivors line" but couldn't find it. It's the same as Motu is talking about, the "racing line" is just that, for racetracks where you know whats around the corner and have done the corner before. Try that shit in the real world and you can end up in a world of hurt.

In a race line when there are trees etc in the way you "assume" where the apex and if the corner is closing radius like the first pic you have to either back off the gas and try and tighten your line and you come out of the corner leaning, off the gas and usually on the wrong side of the road (Waikato Rally 2 anyone?) or in the grass, even on a constant radius corner you end up near the centre line so if any oncoming traffic is playing silly buggers you're in the shit again.

Survivors line you slow down until you can see the exit then drop it on it's side, line up the exit then hard on the gas, the bike will pick itself up and you're off no stress involved, usually the apex speed is lower, but thats good in case there is something around the corner (sheep, gravel, a biker who took the race line and canned off) and because you can get on the gas harder and earlier you don't lose too much time to the "race line" and because the apex is tighter more chance of knee down

[Ixion]

..
The best way to learn smooth riding is to get a gutless bike and learn to keep the pace up,this teaches to keep braking to a minimum,corner speed up and throttle on,it doesn't mean going fast,it means keeping up momentium,it's so hard to get back up to speed you learn never to loose it...

Mis-spent youth riding gutless bikes, I still hardly ever use my brakes . When you're limited to BSA Bantam power you learn to not waste any of that precious mementum, cos it's just too hard to get it back. Helped of course that brakes on most bikes back then were completely useless anyway.

And I don't like committing to a corner until I can see right round it, so I'm also a "late in hard over and power on and upright as soon as possible". It's not the fastest way on seal (is on gravel) but it's a lot safer than a racing line.

[flyin]

Nice diagrams Fzero.... lines are a little rough but I'm sure most will undertand....

AHHH the joys of prodrive..... lines, apexes, braking points, vanishing points and generally where to look was drilled into me and a whole bunch of other Welly schoolkids (free of charge), Thrashing round the seaview horce racing track in starlets, I attended the motorsport NZ sponsored course when i was 15, taught all sorts of fun braking and turning techniques. I'm fairly sure its still running so if you know anyone on the road (especially young drivers) who havn't attended get into action! This stuff SHOULD be general knowledge of EVERY road user!! Info was always available at the college offices......

I beleive this training has kept me alive and gave me a huge headstart when I woke up and got me a motorbike! also gave the basics into some of the jargon thats thrown around among bikers so I knew what you all were talking about when i first got here......

Yeah little bikes are the best way to learn abut retaining momentum.....

[bear]

I agree with FzerozeroT, and riding to the vanishing point on the road allows good control. Recently attended a course with Roadsafe and we worked through it (cornering is my section to work on too).
Riding to the vanishing point (furtherest visible piece of road) means looking at the vanishing point, if it is getting closer then the corner is getting tighter, if moving away then the corner is opening up.
Following a wider line as illustrated above allows for you to see more of the road ahead.

You might find some tips here also: http://www.megarider.com/Articles/articles.html

[TwoSeven]

Couple of points on that.

Its a good basic rule to remember to give you a basic idea of what a corner will do, but you shouldnt be relying on it to actually take the corner. I can show you quite a few roads around here where the lane tightens up, but the other side lane gets wider - so the vanishing point rule gets busted. Double apex corners are a classic where the visible apex loosens up and the second [hidden] one tightens.

Second point. If your riding in such a manner as to have to rely in vanishing points to dictate your speed around corners I suspect that at some stage you wont make it round a corner.

I use the rule if you cant see round a corner, then slow down until you can see around it. I've been known to almost come to a halt (25kph) approaching a corner because its too dodgy to just make a blind drive round.

I do that because i've been caught out many times on blind corners with sheep, rocks, cars, pot holes, bits of wood, coke bottles, the odd person, changes of direction and all sorts of stuff.

The same rule applies to any situation where you cant see the road ahead due to hazards (city driving), or even not being able to see down a side road.

Back to my original post. Practice the no throttle use on corners and also a game - try and do it keeping to the center of your lane.

To me, taking a corner smooth has nothing to do with the line you take (that affects speed thru the corner). Smoothness is all down to basic bike handling skills and not upsetting the handling of the bike.

[Ixion]

Couple of points on that.

...

I use the rule if you cant see round a corner, then slow down until you can see around it. I've been known to almost come to a halt (25kph) approaching a corner because its too dodgy to just make a blind drive round.

I do that because i've been caught out many times on blind corners with sheep, rocks, cars, pot holes, bits of wood, coke bottles, the odd person, changes of direction and all sorts of stuff.

The same rule applies to any situation where you cant see the road ahead due to hazards (city driving), or even not being able to see down a side road.
...

What that man said. Play it safe, live to play another day. Always assume that a ravening monster is around the corner, because sooner or later, there will be .

[woody68]

Te best thing to do is get out with some of the faster guys and follow them then get them to follow you and do the same corner over and over.
You will learn how they do it.

I missed a couple of apexes on sunday and had to hold on to the brakes way deeper in to the corner than I would of liked.But keep looking at the exit not the ditch on the side of the road
You have to trust your bike, tyres and your self to go fast.

Also when your out on the road in your car or your bike take note of the differance between a 25k ,35k,45k corners there is a theory to them.
I spent 3 1/2 years driving all over NZ and after a while you start to see the differance.

Good luck

[Jantar]

.... The best way to learn smooth riding is to get a gutless bike and learn to keep the pace up,this teaches to keep braking to a minimum,corner speed up and throttle on,it doesn't mean going fast,it means keeping up momentium,it's so hard to get back up to speed you learn never to loose it.This is how Kenny Roberts taught road racing skills,he made his pupils race mini bikes on dirt tracks,this taught them never to back off and loose speed.

Too true Motu, Many years ago I used to enjoy entering road trials on a 125 cc road machine. Most times I would end up being the winner. A small, low powered machine that can just manage the legal speed limit sure does teach you to ride a smooth line.

[Posh Tourer :P]

To me, taking a corner smooth has nothing to do with the line you take (that affects speed thru the corner). Smoothness is all down to basic bike handling skills and not upsetting the handling of the bike.

The reason I'm concerned with lines is because if you are able to go fast through the corner, when you take it at a reasonable pace you will have more time, visibility and room (in terms of grip, line and roadspace) to manouvre in case of something unexpected.

[Posh Tourer :P]

I don't get this whole ''apexing'' talk,like,after 35 yrs I still can't talk the talk.The apex is in the middle of the corner and is the result of what went before,it's determined by your entry.I like a late quick turn in,lay it down and get on the gas early - a modified dirt technique,the pivot turn.Apex and exit are the result of your turn in,you don't just decide on your apex mid corner,or your exit at the apex

The best way to learn smooth riding is to get a gutless bike and learn to keep the pace up,this teaches to keep braking to a minimum,corner speed up and throttle on,it doesn't mean going fast,it means keeping up momentium,it's so hard to get back up to speed you learn never to loose it.This is how Kenny Roberts taught road racing skills,he made his pupils race mini bikes on dirt tracks,this taught them never to back off and loose speed.

I think we are using different words for the same thing. I describe a corner by it's apex cos it is easier than saying "a late quick turn in,lay it down and get on the gas early". I dont necessarily focus on the apex as th key part of it. The entry and late turn in are the real components, from which follow a late apex.

Re the second paragraph, look at TS....

And I don't like committing to a corner until I can see right round it, so I'm also a "late in hard over and power on and upright as soon as possible". It's not the fastest way on seal (is on gravel) but it's a lot safer than a racing line.

I'm not sure that it isnt fast.... Especially if you take into account less scaring yourself shitless, or crashing......

I tried searching for the "survivors line" but couldn't find it. It's the same as Motu is talking about, the "racing line" is just that, for racetracks where you know whats around the corner and have done the corner before. Try that shit in the real world and you can end up in a world of hurt.
In a race line when there are trees etc in the way you "assume" where the apex and if the corner is closing radius like the first pic you have to either back off the gas and try and tighten your line and you come out of the corner leaning, off the gas and usually on the wrong side of the road (Waikato Rally 2 anyone?) or in the grass, even on a constant radius corner you end up near the centre line so if any oncoming traffic is playing silly buggers you're in the shit again.
Survivors line you slow down until you can see the exit then drop it on it's side, line up the exit then hard on the gas, the bike will pick itself up and you're off no stress involved, usually the apex speed is lower, but thats good in case there is something around the corner (sheep, gravel, a biker who took the race line and canned off) and because you can get on the gas harder and earlier you don't lose too much time to the "race line" and because the apex is tighter more chance of knee down.

Very good, well said. I reckon we've about covered the benefits and aspects of a late apex/dirt bike line/survivors line - whatever you want to call it....

Hows that?

[TwoSeven]

The reason I'm concerned with lines is because if you are able to go fast through the corner, when you take it at a reasonable pace you will have more time, visibility and room (in terms of grip, line and roadspace) to manouvre in case of something unexpected.

Its actually the opposite on all your reasons.

[TwoSeven]

I think we are using different words for the same thing. I describe a corner by it's apex cos it is easier than saying "a late quick turn in,lay it down and get on the gas early". I dont necessarily focus on the apex as th key part of it. The entry and late turn in are the real components, from which follow a late apex.

I think I understand. I was told a technique years ago where you use 'action points' to start moves rather than use apexes as references. I think that kind of works better. I'm rubbish at being able to pick up an apex, but I find it easier to pick an action point.

But my view of what the terms mean.

Squaring off the corner (early apex) is where you go in wide and late and turn the corner into a sharp 90 degree turn. It works on the principle that the less time the bike is leaned over the sooner you can be on the gas and the harder you can accelerate and brake. You have to be on the opposite side of the track from the corner (or out that way). Most corners are done this way

A late apex means that your turn in starts much earlier bringing the apex forwards around the corner towards you. The result is that once you get round the corner, you then have to turn again to stop yourself running off the track. Its that double turn thats the classic for a late apex. You'll see it happening at the exit to sweepers (ruapuna is a classic). Also, watch someone like james toseland in superbikes - you will see him throw his body to the side to keep the bike upright as he does the second part of the turn.

If you draw a curve from the outside of the track, to the inside of the track and back out to the outside, a normal apex will be the point of where the line touches the inside curb. Very few corners require this (usually merged corners)

Once you learn which apex to use one which corner, you then need to chuck it all in the bin and learn "sets". The basic objective is to make a straight line as possible thru multiple corners or to remove corners completely.

An example of merging corners is the two left handers are ruapuna before the dipper, these are taken as one sweeper apexing in the middle on the outside of the track. The result is you are able to use the gas in the dipper earlier. Its all throttle control here (from my dodgy memeory)

An example of straight lining corners is levels raceway chicane (from what I can see), the entry is in a bizare place, but you can pretty much drive thru the remaining corners.

An example of a set at ruapuna would be the right hand before fulton hogan corner (square it off), slow then hold to the right (inside) side of the track, square off fulton hogan and hold the left (outside), merge the following 'race ready' corner.

[thats how I do it, others will probably have better lines, its been ages since i've been round there].

Couple of things I also do. First thing is I count the beat like in music. So its 1,2,3, turn tight - 5, 6, 7, throttle off, - 1, turn loose, throttle on, 4 - 1, 2, 3, 4. What beat you use is up to you. It helps when you say the action you also say the track position. Walking out the set is good to find the sequence of events, ride it slowly to get the slow beat, then just pick up the pace and count a faster beat. I've found it easier to learn 2 or 3 sets rather than 14 corners.

Also, no braking points. I use only set entry points (for starting my beat count) and turn in/action points (for single corners). I find that my subconcious does the braking automatically if I decide to turn at a given place. But people have their own opinons on this.


Thats what i've managed to figure out over time. Not sure if its remotely like what they teach, could end up being a pile of shite, but it works for me

[surfchick]

What that man said. Play it safe, live to play another day. Always assume that a ravening monster is around the corner, because sooner or later, there will be .

all you guys are the bomb- great advice and lots to thing about. i had amde the mistake of thinking the racing line only applied to my side of the road- so go wide on the entry then near the centre line then wide again- thereby sort of straigtening out the corner. I was sort of trying to do this in the weekend - my head full of technique etc when on one blind corner up parakai way a beamer came round on my side and gave me a total fright. wierd thing was same thing happened not long after when a car came round a blind corner towing a huge boat. car was on his own side but the boat trailer was wider and on mine. as a new rider i think one wierd thing is how far over your head moves when the bike leans toward the centre line- and i'm thinking it's a good idea to give plenty of room.

that said- being a surfer- the funest sensatiuon of riding is the cornering. i'm not so interested in straight line speed at all- but connecting smooth fast turns (safe) is my ultimate goal. i lurrrrv how dat feels...mmm candy.

[Waylander]

that said- being a surfer- the funest sensatiuon of riding is the cornering. i'm not so interested in straight line speed at all- but connecting smooth fast turns (safe) is my ultimate goal. i lurrrrv how dat feels...mmm candy.

Don't think that has much to do with surfing. It's more a biker thing, I started riding on the flat straight roads but got tired of them my first week. Took to weaving within my lane as a way to break the boredom. Loovin NZ roads cause not many of them are straight.

[TwoSeven]

all you guys are the bomb- great advice and lots to thing about. i had amde the mistake of thinking the racing line only applied to my side of the road- so go wide on the entry then near the centre line then wide again- thereby sort of straigtening out the corner.

It does only apply to your side of the road. Never, ever go on the other side unless you are driving a vehicle with a loud siren and flashing lights. Dont know who said drive on the wrong side of the road - but they should be shot - only people who are poorly trained and cant ride bikes properly need to use more than the lane they are in.