The unpopular view

**Katman** · 26th October 2009, 12:42

Originally Posted by Ixion

How we deal with that I don't know.

For a start we could become far more vocally intolerant of those motorcyclists who consider it their right to treat the road as a racetrack. The way that biker down threads are treated as glowing epitaphs for an individual, regardless of how stupidly they may have meet their demise indicate that many of us have far too great an acceptance of irresponsible riding.

**Brian d marge** · 26th October 2009, 12:50

Originally Posted by Pedrostt500

.
This is going to be a long fight, ACC and the Government are not going to roll over easily, because a few thousand bikers protest at Parliment, this fight will go on long past the 17th of November.
We have to be clear why we are protesting the ACC levy hikes, and why and what we want changed.
The things I'd like to see changed is ACC take a bigger part in Driver / Rider education, Prevention is better than the cure, & probably costs less.
.

Did you ever get pissed off with those adverts on TV , Speeding tax and all those seemingly pointless ideas introduced by the

Nanny state___?????

Some where funded by Acc , but them the reasons why

they did try to educate

Stephen

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/heal...l-plan-support

**FJRider** · 26th October 2009, 12:55

Originally Posted by Ixion

I'm thinking that there is a middle ground.

In reality THERE IS NO NEED FOR MASSIVE HIKES. For anyone.

Longer term, motorcyclists DO have to get their shit together. No matte rhow the figures are shuffled the plain reality is that we are falling of our bikes far too often. And as I don't, you must be falling off a shit load.

How we deal with that I don't know.

I'm hoping there is a middle ground ...

and... I dont believe there is either.

It never fails to supprise me of the "First Off Syndrome" that many bikers display. After getting lucky for some (often many) years, the first meeting of the tarmac with their body, gets their thought processes on reality mode. The previous "it can't/wont happen to me cause I'm careful/good" theory goes out the window. Those that continue riding usually do so with a lot more care...for a while anyway.

**Pedrostt500** · 26th October 2009, 18:55

[QUOTE=Brian d'marge;1129480033]Did you ever get pissed off with those adverts on TV , Speeding tax and all those seemingly pointless ideas introduced by the

Nanny state___?????

Some where funded by Acc , but them the reasons why

they did try to educate

Stephen

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/heal...l-plan-support[/QUOTE

The thing with Education is it is an exercise at building a fence at the top of the Cliff, rather than parking the Ambulance at the bottom, But the fence will not stop those who wish to climb over the fence to see why the fence was put there, and finding they require the Ambulance. Nanny State maybe.

**Pedrostt500** · 26th October 2009, 19:01

Originally Posted by FJRider

I'm hoping there is a middle ground ...

and... I dont believe there is either.

It never fails to supprise me of the "First Off Syndrome" that many bikers display. After getting lucky for some (often many) years, the first meeting of the tarmac with their body, gets their thought processes on reality mode. The previous "it can't/wont happen to me cause I'm careful/good" theory goes out the window. Those that continue riding usually do so with a lot more care...for a while anyway.

We do most of our learning by Exsperiance, we learn what Hot means by burning ourselves, We learn that the Law of the land may catch us some times, We learn that when we break the laws of Physics, on a Motorcycle we come off second best to the tarmac, I have learnt about the laws of physics the hard way.

**dipshit** · 26th October 2009, 19:21

Originally Posted by Pedrostt500

We do most of our learning by Exsperiance,

Except for things that can kill you quick smart. i.e.. flying an aeroplane, using a firearm, going to war, piloting a submarine. You don't always have the luxury of learning from your mistakes (because you can die if you make one) so training becomes the key.

**Brian d marge** · 26th October 2009, 19:42

[QUOTE=Pedrostt500;1129480614]

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

Did you ever get pissed off with those adverts on TV , Speeding tax and all those seemingly pointless ideas introduced by the

Nanny state___?????

Some where funded by Acc , but them the reasons why

they did try to educate

Stephen

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/heal...l-plan-support[/QUOTE

The thing with Education is it is an exercise at building a fence at the top of the Cliff, rather than parking the Ambulance at the bottom, But the fence will not stop those who wish to climb over the fence to see why the fence was put there, and finding they require the Ambulance. Nanny State maybe.

Where are the parents ......

an idiot tax ,,,????

Stephen

**craisin** · 26th October 2009, 20:13

mmm high risk idiot levy

**Dave_G** · 26th October 2009, 20:53

[QUOTE=Ixion;1129480021]I'm thinking that there is a middle ground.

Longer term, motorcyclists DO have to get their shit together. No matte rhow the figures are shuffled the plain reality is that we are falling of our bikes far too often. And as I don't, you must be falling off a shit load.

Exactly. And how many times have you posted on here supporting the "rights" for people to ride how they like, when they like wearing or not wearing suitable safety equipment because its their individual right to do whatever the hell they like? More than once form what I've read.

When you start hearing and reading the media stating that its the way bikes are being ridden (i.e. its the idiots at the controls) that makes them a menace and dangerous then you have a problem with public perception. Those who post here regularly and push a message of greater personal responsibility by individual riders are consistently rubbished (e.g. the Katman person) and yet the very things he or she has said many times are the very things that cost motorcyclists support when its most needed. The reality is we are in a minority politically, a relatively small fringe element when the votes are counted. Those who might support us wont as they have bigger issues to confront, e.g. unemployment etc. and they remember the 1 idiot they saw today and not the other 15 who rode sensibly.

**NighthawkNZ:Me** · 26th October 2009, 20:59

a good article
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-f...ectid=10605395

To read Sir Owen is to understand how far we've strayed from many of the principles on which ACC was built. Like community responsibility, which goes against the idea that you should levy one section of the community more heavily than others, as proposed by the current government. Sir Owen held that as we all benefit from risky activities, we should all bear the cost equally.

**Mikkel** · 26th October 2009, 21:42

Originally Posted by Winston001

Good stuff and I'm pleased to see a robust alternative view on the issue.

"No Fault" means "No Blame" in the compensation/damages sense. However it does not mean "No Risk".

So.......if you choose a risky occupation then you pay more ACC. The problem arises in the context of non-work injuries. At present there is no distinction or levy imposed for high risk activities.

Personally I'm happy for that to continue and support the protest actions.

You keep on bringing the not a "no risk" but a "no fault" scheme to the fore. In regards to risk assessment of workplaces - the employer (i.e. the representative of the workplace and thus the risk associated with it) pays the inflated ACC levy that goes with a higher risk assessment. The proposed ACC levy increase for motorcyclists effectively corresponds to applying the burden of an increases ACC levy upon the worker who is employed at a high-risk workplace.

Originally Posted by Ixion

But that's NOT the case. Only motorcyclists are singled out. And moreover, the basis upon which the risk loadings are made in workplace levies is very open and transparent and contestable. That assigning higher levies to motorcycles certainly is not.

Indeed, not to mention the statement from the ACC report, which you used on Close-up, about wanting to provide a stable and predictable levy environment.

Imagine if you got told by your home insurance provider that your premium would be up by >200% next year. You'd first assume that a mistake had been made, then you would get frustrated and then you would find another insurance company. ...except there wouldn't be any.

**terbang** · 26th October 2009, 21:46

Originally Posted by dipshit

Except for things that can kill you quick smart. i.e.. flying an aeroplane,

Yeah right, more hype and misconceptions. More get killed in cars.

**dipshit** · 26th October 2009, 21:53

Originally Posted by terbang

Yeah right, more hype and misconceptions. More get killed in cars.

Ok, since you seem to be a typical motorcyclists (

) i shall explain this nice and simply.

If you make a mistake while flying an aeroplane for example, it could turn into a monumental cock-up. You may not end up 'learning from your mistakes'.

**terbang** · 26th October 2009, 22:34

Originally Posted by dipshit

Ok, since you seem to be a typical motorcyclists (

) i shall explain this nice and simply.

If you make a mistake while flying an aeroplane for example, it could turn into a monumental cock-up. You may not end up 'learning from your mistakes'.

Sir, you couldn't sound any more simple.
Make a mistake drinking your morning coffee and it may be your last as well. Some would also call that a monumental cock up.
So whats your point?
I have been a motorcyclist and an aviator/coffee drinker for over 1/4 of a century and whilst there are some similaritys, believe me the cultures are vastly different.
Stay on track with Motorcycles and ACC.

So I still say hype and misconception.

**FJRider** · 26th October 2009, 23:44

Originally Posted by Pedrostt500

We do most of our learning by Exsperiance, we learn what Hot means by burning ourselves, We learn that the Law of the land may catch us some times, We learn that when we break the laws of Physics, on a Motorcycle we come off second best to the tarmac, I have learnt about the laws of physics the hard way.

The laws of physics is what keeps us intact. The crucial one is the law of opposite and equal reaction, to each action.

or even shorter ...

There is ... a reaction to each action. (story of my life)

The rules of mass and inertia need study...