Fatal 4wd accident on Maungatapu Track (28 October)

[Crisis management]

Its a public road and has been since the horse and cart days when it was the only road to NN from that side as far as I know.

I would check that "fact" if I were you as the council seems to think it is private land and not a public road...they were very clear about that to me.

[cooneyr]

Its a public road and has been since the horse and cart days when it was the only road to NN from that side as far as I know.
It certainly isnt closed to bikes and personally I dont have an issue with the way its maintained ,even though its part of my regular route to and from town.
If a service provider wants the priveledge of cutting a cable into a steep public 4x4 road they should be out there maintaining their investment instead of sitting on their hands and putting signs up .

I would check that "fact" if I were you as the council seems to think it is private land and not a public road...they were very clear about that to me.

Two points. Firstly the track is not a legal road between the Maitai Rd and a few hundred meters east of the summit. Our friendly surveyor has check up on this. However it is a historic route which is a positive for maintain access if things get ugly down the track i.e. legal battles if we want to go there.

Second, I'm sure there is a NZ Standard around the installation and protection of services and I'm sure it is up to the service providers to adequately protect their services.

I've just had a though - I suspect is happening is that the services are under threat from 4x4s etc and the service providers know the road is not a legall road so they are pushing the Council to stop access so they do not have to put much if any effort into service protection. Has this been said explicitly WW or Nordie? This might explain why the care taker never gives motobikes any grief and yet I bet he doesnt let many 4x4's through.

If this is the case the Council is piggy in the middle and as they are also the land owner then this means there is even more impetus for us to not annoy the Council. Track users have no real rights other than historic used rights, a weak stance, so we should be talking with the council about what we can do to help keep the track open i.e. form a working group for minor maintenance works, or fencing of areas where there are high risk services etc. Providing the labour may go a long way to help sway the Council for our benefit. Kinda like adopt-a-highway.

Cheers R

[Skinny_Birdman]

Two points. Firstly the track is not a legal road between the Maitai Rd and a few hundred meters east of the summit. Our friendly surveyor has check up on this. However it is a historic route which is a positive for maintain access if things get ugly down the track i.e. legal battles if we want to go there.

Second, I'm sure there is a NZ Standard around the installation and protection of services and I'm sure it is up to the service providers to adequately protect their services.

I've just had a though - I suspect is happening is that the services are under threat from 4x4s etc and the service providers know the road is not a legall road so they are pushing the Council to stop access so they do not have to put much if any effort into service protection. Has this been said explicitly WW or Nordie? This might explain why the care taker never gives motobikes any grief and yet I bet he doesnt let many 4x4's through.

If this is the case the Council is piggy in the middle and as they are also the land owner then this means there is even more impetus for us to not annoy the Council. Track users have no real rights other than historic used rights, a weak stance, so we should be talking with the council about what we can do to help keep the track open i.e. form a working group for minor maintenance works, or fencing of areas where there are high risk services etc. Providing the labour may go a long way to help sway the Council for our benefit. Kinda like adopt-a-highway.

As R says, the only way anyone is going to force the Council's hand is likely to be in court, in this instance, and I wouldn't bet the farm on the outcome.The fact that a lot of people use it and have done for a long time doesn't make it a legal road.
As an aside, I'm sure you are right about protection of services, R - does it come under NZS 4404?

[cooneyr]

....As an aside, I'm sure you are right about protection of services, R - does it come under NZS 4404?

It is probably covered in 4404, subdivision and development NZS for those who don't know, but that is probably for domestic services. I'm sure there will be a standard for the national grid as well - even if it is a industry managed standard in the same way that NZTA as a client maintains industry standards and specifications for road materals and construction methods.

Cheers R

[warewolf]

so they do not have to put much if any effort into service protection.

Hasn't been said, but I don't think that would work, as there are too many organisations requiring access: two power co's, BCL Broadcasters and Telstra. The comms ppl wouldn't want to risk heavy power transmission service vehicles damaging their fibre optics.

IIRC the last big service to the road was after/during a power co's maintenance period 3 years ago, when it was closed for months but was tidied (even metaled in parts) upon re-opening.

No doubt it may be easier to retain access for PTWs (powered two wheelers) than 4wds based on damage or risk thereof, particularly if we agree to perform some maintenance in return, but we really don't want to go there. We should aim to keep the status quo. However, the question becomes how & when do we act? It is usually easier to be part of the decision-making process than try to get a decision reversed later. Teaming up with the 4wds gives us greater numbers, and is consistent with the traffic laws, but is at the cost of weakening our damage argument. If push comes to shove, do we want to set a precedent where we draw a dividing line - literally and figuratively - between ptw & 4wd?

Oh, and it ain't just a 4wd track... I've seen plenty of regular 2wd vehicles on the Nelson side up to and including the summit.

Tonight I will speak to someone who may have inside knowledge on how to proceed.

Question: does the Council have to consult before deciding to close it? In other words, can they close it without notice, or are they obliged to consult with the citizenry prior? IF it was currently a designated road, then I'd be fairly sure of a consultation. But since it isn't, they may not be bound by any of those rules.

[Skinny_Birdman]

Question: does the Council have to consult before deciding to close it? In other words, can they close it without notice, or are they obliged to consult with the citizenry prior? IF it was currently a designated road, then I'd be fairly sure of a consultation. But since it isn't, they may not be bound by any of those rules.

If it was a legal road, then under the Local Government Act 1974 there would have to be some level of consultation. In this instance, use of the road has been on sufferance, so I wouldn't imagine there is any legal obligation. Moral perhaps.......

[warewolf]

That's what I was thinking. I'm not presuming the council wants to stop access, but I would understand them trying to get the other utilities ppl to cough up for maintenance if the council has no legal requirement to pay for it themselves.

[NordieBoy]

If it was a legal road, then under the Local Government Act 1974 there would have to be some level of consultation. In this instance, use of the road has been on sufferance, so I wouldn't imagine there is any legal obligation. Moral perhaps.......

Under sufferance maybe, but the current track has been in constant use since 1860 and the earlier Maori track before that.

[Amz]

Its a hard one. I 4x4 and mtbike it. Hang of a lot easier to carry shovels etc in the truck. 4x4's will always use the road to access the pylons. Just like most moto riders hate 4x4's, most mtbikers hate moto's ripping up their tracks too. I spend weeks building a mtb track and regularly groom them only to have some fool on a moto rip it up. Trouble is, it usually only takes one or two idiots to wreck it for everyone else. At the end of the day I reckon we all have to team up.

[thommo77]

This was part of the article following the accident -

Mr Tiernan said the Maungatapu Track could be considered a public road under the Land Transport Act.

"We will be speaking to people and working through an examination and considering what action might follow.

"We're well aware of the fact that the registered owner of the vehicle gave the keys willingly to a person on a restricted licence," Mr Tiernan said.

He said there was a possibility that the vehicle owner had committed a number of offences by providing the keys to the 16- year-old, and the police were "not ruling anything in or out".

Nelson 4 Wheel Drive Club president Bob Dickinson described the track as a grade-one or two track out of a maximum of five grades in difficulty.

He said it was a steep gravel track from the Nelson side to the saddle, and mainly a single-lane track.

"It's not regarded as a particularly difficult track, but you couldn't drive the family saloon up there.

"It's a well-used, popular track and is a legal road," Mr Dickinson said.


Can someone explain the jurisdiction issue here? Is it with LTA or NCC??!!

[warewolf]

"Could be considered a public road" is kinda meaningless in terms of demanding access. The Land Transport Act states that any private land open to the public, is treated legally as a public road, ie driver & vehicle licences required, insurance applies etc. Typical use of that clause is a supermarket carpark - private land to which the public has access, so road rules apply. Ditto beaches.

The issue here is that contrary to the 4wd club prez's statement, as far as the professionals who have access to the cadastral(?) information - both the council and those on here - it's not a legal road. Obviously, in the past it has been, being the original route to the east of Nelson (hence Murderer's Rock) but it appears not in modern times.

PS Mr Dickinson - you could drive the family saloon up there, I've seen it done multiple times. Well, at least, you could before the 4wders churned it into a super-cross like track.