McJim's argument against raising ACC levies for motorcycles

[McJim]

...but a car up on blocks killing grass should be pretty safe from accidents!

Spoken like someone who doesn't have a toddler....

[pzkpfw]

Spoken like someone who doesn't have a toddler....

:-) Actually I've got two kids so I know how that goes, and I did consider it!

(For the purpose of this thread I considered these sort of things would be "household accidents", not "road accidents". Though given how daft is ACC data collection is I suppose they woukd go under the road fund.

[Someone posted an example of getting an exhaust pipe burn just looking at a bike they were going to buy, and ACC classed it as a motorcycle accident.]
)

[martybabe]

Why would National want to alienate motorcyclists though. As has been pointed out before there are some 480,000 motorcycle licence holders in New Zealand and 75% of them are over 40. We are talking Nationals voting heartland here.

Are they mad or are they stuck in the 70s thinking that we are all still a bunch of young hoons?

Now that is a very valid point in my view. At the moment I think they see us as 'motorcyclists', you know those oddball people that speed everywhere, fall off a lot and cost a fortune to fix. Motorcycling and the reasons we do it are just lost on most of the bureaucratic fools, even the one's that have an inkling what it's all about don't give a fig.

The game here is to get them to see us as voters, moreover, voters from the demographic you describe. National may be riding high on an unprecedented wave of popularity at the moment but no political party can remain blaze about the threat of losing nearly half a million potential votes or whatever the true figure is.

I think they knew exactly how the news of the levies would be taken by us, I think they fully expect demonstrations and snotty e-mails and petitions. I think they believe we are an unpopular group that will have little support from Joe public.I believe the incorrect figures they trot out ad nauseum are designed to remove any sympathy the general public may have had for our plight. All these things have been considered by the beehives PR people and money crunchers but, I think the one thing they have failed to account for is who we really are. when you get down to it we are not just a powerless oddball group that are more trouble than we're worth, we are an eclectic group of voters who can count amongst our number, politicians, lawyers doctors, uni students, ambos, firefighters and farmers. We are the voting public and we need to shove that message good n hard up the beehives back passage.

[James Deuce]

Now that is a very valid point in my view. At the moment I think they see us as 'motorcyclists', you know those oddball people that speed everywhere, fall off a lot and cost a fortune to fix. Motorcycling and the reasons we do it are just lost on most of the bureaucratic fools, even the one's that have an inkling what it's all about don't give a fig.

The game here is to get them to see us as voters, moreover, voters from the demographic you describe. National may be riding high on an unprecedented wave of popularity at the moment but no political party can remain blaze about the threat of losing nearly half a million potential votes or whatever the true figure is.

I think they knew exactly how the news of the levies would be taken by us, I think they fully expect demonstrations and snotty e-mails and petitions. I think they believe we are an unpopular group that will have little support from Joe public.I believe the incorrect figures they trot out ad nauseum are designed to remove any sympathy the general public may have had for our plight. All these things have been considered by the beehives PR people and money crunchers but, I think the one thing they have failed to account for is who we really are. when you get down to it we are not just a powerless oddball group that are more trouble than we're worth, we are an eclectic group of voters who can count amongst our number, politicians, lawyers doctors, uni students, ambos, firefighters and farmers. We are the voting public and we need to shove that message good n hard up the beehives back passage.

Nah. A quarter of those license holders are current riders.

There is a substantial vein of anti-motorcycle sentiment that prevents those remaining bikers from participating, and the remaining 8 tenths of the population don't care, either through being babies, old people, or just not that into obsessing about transport options. I'm very lucky my dear wife is a grown up who can see the good that motorcycling does for me. She hates them. They've caused her nothing but pain and suffering, from being knocked down on a crossing, to me breaking her ankle, to having to watch me struggle to put my life back together after a nasty accident. The health system is out there actively shafting us, for the same reason Cops thing every human being sucks - they see the worst of motorcycling on a daily basis.

We are a powerless oddball group. HOG is arguably where all the people are with access to Government process and the capacity to disseminate information and they simply don't care about taking a stance. Ulysses are flailing about all over the place, desperate to avoid having to associate with other motorcycling groups at a political level, and the remaining motorcyclists lack direction, cohesion, and even a sound understanding of what the discussion is all about.

The Maori Party are going to shaft us as they are probably about to earn some massive concession for making sure all aspects of the ACC bill are pushed through.

You get those people working together and I'll become a card carrying member of the Political Party you form, because you'd have to be slicker than Bill Clinton to pull it off.

[Voltaire]

"Originally Posted by McJim
Why would National want to alienate motorcyclists though. As has been pointed out before there are some 480,000 motorcycle licence holders in New Zealand and 75% of them are over 40. We are talking Nationals voting heartland here."
.................................................. .................................................. ...
....enought to get 5% of the vote at the next election....
Grey Power/ BRONZ party.
Makes more sense than Peter Dunn and Jim Andertons parties.

Klingon for PM.
( free trips overseas for your partner and housing allowance, underground secure parking at the Beehive for the Volty)

[martybabe]

Nah. A quarter of those license holders are current riders.

There is a substantial vein of anti-motorcycle sentiment that prevents those remaining bikers from participating, and the remaining 8 tenths of the population don't care, either through being babies, old people, or just not that into obsessing about transport options. I'm very lucky my dear wife is a grown up who can see the good that motorcycling does for me. She hates them. They've caused her nothing but pain and suffering, from being knocked down on a crossing, to me breaking her ankle, to having to watch me struggle to put my life back together after a nasty accident. The health system is out there actively shafting us, for the same reason Cops thing every human being sucks - they see the worst of motorcycling on a daily basis.

We are a powerless oddball group. HOG is arguably where all the people are with access to Government process and the capacity to disseminate information and they simply don't care about taking a stance. Ulysses are flailing about all over the place, desperate to avoid having to associate with other motorcycling groups at a political level, and the remaining motorcyclists lack direction, cohesion, and even a sound understanding of what the discussion is all about.

The Maori Party are going to shaft us as they are probably about to earn some massive concession for making sure all aspects of the ACC bill are pushed through.

You get those people working together and I'll become a card carrying member of the Political Party you form, because you'd have to be slicker than Bill Clinton to pull it off.

Thanks for your candid reply and I bow to your superior knowledge of NZ's motorcycling community, depressing reading though it is.
In fact if your figures are correct and I have no cause to doubt them, we're looking at 100,000 ish bikers that 'might' give a toss, several large groups among them don't want to play ball with the rest of us, a large proportion are too apathetic and or don't understand the problem enough to do any thing to constructively fight the changes, the health service think we are a total pain, jo public dislikes us at best and the government just flat don't want us to exist any more.

You appear to be even more pessimistic/realistic than me, oh well, do you think we could get three hundred of us together in togs and armour and hold 'them' at the pass.

The odds of a tangible victory, no matter how we fight this, are grim but even so the fight must be fought, I for one will not be bent over and shafted without giving them a punch on the nose if it is humanly possible. I do think though, that when the smoke clears from the battlefield, the de=brief will show a small reduction in levies to appease the, apparently, not so many masses. Then again I think that was accounted for all along too.

Hey James, I thought you wouldn't belong to any club that would have you as a member I guess my political party still consists of just me my dog then.

[FJRider]

Nah. A quarter of those license holders are current riders.

And a large percentage of the remaining, either sympathise or wish they were.

There is a substantial vein of anti-motorcycle sentiment that prevents those remaining bikers from participating, and the remaining 8 tenths of the population don't care, either through being babies, old people, or just not that into obsessing about transport options. I'm very lucky my dear wife is a grown up who can see the good that motorcycling does for me. She hates them. They've caused her nothing but pain and suffering, from being knocked down on a crossing, to me breaking her ankle, to having to watch me struggle to put my life back together after a nasty accident. The health system is out there actively shafting us, for the same reason Cops thing every human being sucks - they see the worst of motorcycling on a daily basis.

But she will also see the huge grin on your dial after a ride. And the way it lifts your mood when you are down.

We are a powerless oddball group. HOG is arguably where all the people are with access to Government process and the capacity to disseminate information and they simply don't care about taking a stance. Ulysses are flailing about all over the place, desperate to avoid having to associate with other motorcycling groups at a political level, and the remaining motorcyclists lack direction, cohesion, and even a sound understanding of what the discussion is all about.

You get those people working together and I'll become a card carrying member of the Political Party you form, because you'd have to be slicker than Bill Clinton to pull it off.

Perhaps this may be the time for all of us to start working together.

Not just concentrating on our own agendas...

Working together we can do it.

[Marmoot]

On Saturday, the magnificent Mrs H and I were sitting in the sun in front of Greytown's White Swan, sipping shandies (as you do) and trading banter with the locals. After about seven seconds, one of them braved to broach the subject of ACC levies, presumably to get a rise out of my fair self.

"So what do you think should happen," I asked.

"Well," he said, sliding his hat back a bit and taking a decent draught of his ale, "Funny that you should ask.

"I reckon that ACC should collect its levies on driver licenses, rather than vehicle registrations," he mused.

"And how would that work then," I enquired.

"Well," he said, taking another decent slurp of suds, "I reckon they could bring back annual license renewals (not that this was ever the case, but I decided not to interject and correct him), charge $40 for a license and an additional $5 for every demerit point on your account."

He then paused for another sip of beer before adding "That would provide a meaningful incentive for people to be safer drivers, as well as raising shitloads of cash".

One could not argue with his thesis. It is both brilliant and simple. It probably has some obvious flaws, but I have not yet figured out what they may be. It's certainly way cheaper for motorcyclists (unless one has multitudinous demerits accrued) than the current option, and only discriminates against drivers on the basis of their lawfulness, rather than on the type of vehicle they own.

Given that his beer glass was now empty, I bought him a refill.

Mate, you've just been had.
I'd say the same thing to you if it gets me a free beer.

Jokings aside, no government in their sane mind would impose 'severe tax' to the majority. That's a political suicide at best, and leads to burning and hanging in some worse situations.

[MSTRS:Me]

On Saturday, the magnificent Mrs H and I were sitting in the sun in front of Greytown's White Swan, sipping shandies (as you do) and trading banter with the locals. After about seven seconds, one of them braved to broach the subject of ACC levies, presumably to get a rise out of my fair self.

"So what do you think should happen," I asked.

"Well," he said, sliding his hat back a bit and taking a decent draught of his ale, "Funny that you should ask.

"I reckon that ACC should collect its levies on driver licenses, rather than vehicle registrations," he mused.

"And how would that work then," I enquired.

"Well," he said, taking another decent slurp of suds, "I reckon they could bring back annual license renewals (not that this was ever the case, but I decided not to interject and correct him), charge $40 for a license and an additional $5 for every demerit point on your account."

He then paused for another sip of beer before adding "That would provide a meaningful incentive for people to be safer drivers, as well as raising shitloads of cash".

One could not argue with his thesis. It is both brilliant and simple. It probably has some obvious flaws, but I have not yet figured out what they may be. It's certainly way cheaper for motorcyclists (unless one has multitudinous demerits accrued) than the current option, and only discriminates against drivers on the basis of their lawfulness, rather than on the type of vehicle they own.

Given that his beer glass was now empty, I bought him a refill.

Very smart, these bucolic types
You are forgiven for being too young to remember. The old booklet licences had an annual renewal requirement. For 50c you got a sticker in your book that stated the licence was valid until.... And for $2.00 you could cover 5 years ahead. Discount for bulk purchase.
You have made a friend in te heartlands...

[McJim]

Do we know any good lobbyists? If we all chip in a few bob could we get someone from the NRA?

[Hitcher]

Mate, you've just been had.
I'd say the same thing to you if it gets me a free beer.

I may be cheap but I'm not easy.