The bigger picture.

[Katman]

The point is, while your intentions are good, and often the core of your message is too, it often reads like you're just trying to pick a fight or piss people off.

Don't be fooled - the meek aren't going to inherit the earth.

[AD345]

Don't be fooled - the meek aren't going to inherit the earth.

Fortunately - neither are you

[short-circuit]

So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

Regardless of what degree of success we have from Tuesday's protest ride (and any subsequent protest action), if there is not a visible attempt to clean up our own backyard then we will find ourselves being targeted over and over again.

[paddy]

So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

Regardless of what degree of success we have from Tuesday's protest ride (and any subsequent protest action), if there is not a visible attempt to clean up our own backyard then we will find ourselves being targeted over and over again.

I think the issue is much more complex than you are portraying, but I do concede you have a point. Within any group there are always going to be those who do not play by the rules. In the car world we label them boy racers. And we separate them from ourselves because clearly we do not drive like that so they must be different to us.

There are also boy racers on motorcycles, and if you don't ride a motorcycle safely yourself, but just drive a car, then it is easy to paint ALL motorcyclists as boy racers. After all, safe riding doesn't stand out.

The biker community is not immune from this. Just read through the posts on this site dedicated to "idiot cagers", or "stupid cagers". Because clearly no-one knows how to drive except those that ride a motorcycle. Now logically, we know this is not true, but as a community our rhetoric does not reflect this.

The difference between the two scenarios is that we are the minority so we need to behave that much better than everyone else. Do I believe for a second that will happen? No. I think that would require a fundamental shift in the average New Zealander's attitude toward road use.

The interesting thing is that, even in countries like Germany where EXTENSIVE driver training is a requirement, unsafe and discourteous driving is still commonplace.

[paddy]

Anyway - don't give up. I guess if even one person 'gets it' then that makes it worthwhile.

That was a really encouraging thing to say and I couldn't agree more. KiwiBiker can often be about tearing people down rather than building community.

[jeffs]

Katman answer these truthfully ( without just saying " I told you so, look back at all my old posts" ).

Do you believe increasing our bike levies by 300% will reduce the accident rate and change the way people ride ?.
Do you believe that without pressure being applied, ACC will reinvest any of the extra money they collect in rider education ?
Do you believe that the money they may invest, (after pressure has been applied), will be enough to make any difference to the accident rates ?
Do you believe that ACC are increasing the levies for the same reasons you have been writing about ?
Have you ever had a woops moment due to driver error ?
Have you ever had to take evasive action to avoid car or van on the road that may not have see you ?
Have you ever ( in you long riding history ) ever ridden over the posted speed limit ?

Katman there will always be bad riders, there will always be crime , there will always be war. It is the nature of the human race.

Making people pay more for what every one else gets for less, will not solve the rider crash rate.

As much as you like to tell people they all brought this on them selfs, the ACC do not have your high agenda, it simply wants more money.

If you honestly believe different, you are as beyond help as the people you ridicule.

That all said you are right, there needs to be a better way, one that will work, and no person would argue with that, but because of your provocative posts, no one is listening to your message. And you even ridicule the one who are trying to make a change.

Unfortunately answer is not a 300% increase in levies.

[Bass]

Unfortunately answer is not a 300% increase in levies.

I can't find a single one of his posts where he said that it was the answer.
What I understand him to be saying is that if we don't clean up our act then this is just the beginning. There are several who disagree with him and some vehemently so, mostly claiming that cleaning up our act will make no difference and that this change is driven by a political agenda. However, he has been predicting our current situation for some considerable time and has now been proven correct.
Could he also be correct about the future from here?

[FROSTY:Me]

I think the core of katmans arguement is that WE as bikers have made ourselves the easy target.
Imagine if the announcement from ACC was that rugby players would have to pay ACC levvies at every game. The nation would be in an uproar.
So we do need to ask -"why have we become seen as an easy target"
One strong arguement is of course that the tarriffs on jap import cars was removed so an entire generation (or two) are no longer bikers or ex bikers. -It was cheap enough to get into a car.
as a result those that do ride mostly do so as a recreational choice rather than/as well as as a means of transport.
Theres also the perception that riding a bike is for the rich to do as a hobby and for the nasty scum who have loud bikes and pop wheelies on yellow lines in heavy traffic (as an example). the rich guys can afford it and really the scum should be in jail where they belong.

As a biking community we could probably do with another add campaighn like the honda one way back in the 60's --You meet the NICEST people on a Honda.

[Katman]

What I understand him to be saying is that if we don't clean up our act then this is just the beginning.

I think the core of katmans arguement is that WE as bikers have made ourselves the easy target.

See people? - Some of us 'get it'.

[PrincessBandit]

I think the core of katmans arguement is that WE as bikers have made ourselves the easy target.
Imagine if the announcement from ACC was that rugby players would have to pay ACC levvies at every game. The nation would be in an uproar.

My mum said that as a young sports player you weren't allowed to play if you didn't have insurance. (She's on the other side of 70, so it was some time ago...) I don't see why rugby players shouldn't be paying an ACC levy for every game they play. Oh yeah, I do know why they don't: sports is our national religion.

Oh and while on that note, the meek will inherit the earth one day Steve

(you know I couldn't resist)

[Katman]

Oh and while on that note, the meek will inherit the earth one day Steve

(you know I couldn't resist)

I'll fight you for it.

[MSTRS:Me]

See people? - Some of us 'get it'.

Come on KM...dig reeeeeally deep...and just answer the guy. They are fair questions. His question/s did not include the 'why has this happened'.

[Katman]

Do you believe increasing our bike levies by 300% will reduce the accident rate and change the way people ride ?.

Of course it won't. A change in motorcyclists attitudes will though.

Do you believe that without pressure being applied, ACC will reinvest any of the extra money they collect in rider education ?

I would doubt it.

Do you believe that the money they may invest, (after pressure has been applied), will be enough to make any difference to the accident rates ?

Possibly - who knows?

Do you believe that ACC are increasing the levies for the same reasons you have been writing about ?

Of course I do. Are you dense?

Have you ever had a woops moment due to driver error ?

Of course I have.

Have you ever had to take evasive action to avoid car or van on the road that may not have see you ?

Of course I have. I've also had to take evasive action to avoid a number of motorcyclists who have certainly seen me but have simply been far out-riding their meagre ability.

Have you ever ( in you long riding history ) ever ridden over the posted speed limit ?

Point me to one single post where I have said "Never exceed the posted speed limit".



(Happy John?)

[Hitcher]

The answer my friend
Is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

[caseye]

Katman, she'll win bro You know this! on ya for answering the questions, for the record, I get it and I get that there isn't one of us here that is squeaky clean, so lets get away from casting naspursions and concentrate on what can be done.