Remind me – what is everyone protesting against?

[Clockwork]

VTEC pretty much says it all. From my Point of view if you are going to start appointing risk/blame to one group you simply must go the whole hog and do it for all contributors in all ACC categories but of course if you take that argument to its logical conclusion you may as well do away with ACC altogether!

As things stand because I ride a motorcycle I am expected to meet the claims of all other motorcyclists both present and PAST. I dispute that I pose a significant risk as a road user and would happily let my driving record and claim history speak for itself but I'm denied that right.

Meanwhile, while wearing some additional personal risk we get no credit for making the roads less dangerous for other users, roads and car parks are less congested and less harm is done to the environment. It seems as a group we must we must pay for our own injuries but have no right to ask for any quid pro quo.

[Jantar]

Dr Lamb's figures are significantly different from the ACC's using the ACC's own data, rather than the obviously massaged data the ACC have published on their website.

2008 ACC Claim Payout by Motor Group Levy
Group	Payout per claim
Truck	$17,807
Passenger Car	$14,885
Pedestrian	$13,678
Cycling	$12,626
Motorcycle	$12,013

Not really different, just the figures I've quoted are from all active claims in 2008 and Prof Lamb's figures are for new 2008 claims. They both show that motorcycles claims are less than car claims irrespective of whether they are new or historical.

[mashman]

I see you work in actuaries and therefore calculate "things" using a probability model as your method of choice, pretty pessimistic, but hey!

I agree that in the grand scale of things, IF there is an accident involving a car and a bike, the bike rider is more than likely (probably) going to come off worse right? WRONG.

You can't tell, what kind of crash is it? head on, side on, where did the motorcyclist land when the motorcyclist came off, how did the motorcyclist land when they came off... I can level all of these things at the car in the accident... What kind of crash was it? where did the car end up? what's the ncap rating? Never ending parameters for a calculation!

Yet, the motorcyclist is not inside a cage, therefore the motorcyclist is free to roll to safety, the motorcyclist has body armour so the worst thing that could happen to the motorcyclist is that they need new gear. Ouchy, it's a head on... The motorcyclist could see what's happening and leave the bike in a direction of my choosing, no seatbelt to undo, soft patch of grass to the right, cliff face to the left... exit stage right!

Basically the accident has a myriad of outcomes. People who calculate probability are looking at accidents that are going to happen, without knowing exactly what kind of accident it is and without knowing what the outcome will be (i know there are other variables)... essentially making things up as they go along. Because it's in the future, you have no idea what accident will occur, you only think that there will be an accident because you have calculated its probability... So your planning for the future that may never happen!

Chance is also in your future, to me Chance beats Probability PERIOD! Because it takes EVERYTHING into account that Probability does and then takes everything else into account that Probability doesn't.

The Probability of Chance is 50 - 50!!! Same as anyone in the world!

Your turn!

[wingrider]

Hi Reflex.
If you click on the link to the bronze site. click on the ACC link you can stroll down and find a downloadable version of proff lambs speech.

There were many of us that perhaps got taken aback by the initial announcement that our fees were to rise. We also got rocked when we saw the size of the rise in proportion to the cc rating of the bike we ride.

Reading more, we soon came to the conclusion that something was really wrong and politicly biased in respect of the information being released to the public.

A hell of a lot of very detailed work undertaken by a few contributors on this forum unearthed a whole pile of discrepencies that required further research.

THE RESULT WAS THAT NOT ONLY WERE THEY USING POORLY CONSTRUCTED STATISTICS TO PROMOTE THEIR AGENDA, THEY WERE OUTRIGHT LYING TO US AND THE PUBLIC IN GENERAL.

It was our investigation that bought a LOT OF THE HIDDEN CHANGES OUT FROM UNDER THE MAT, and it was a change of tactic from us that allowed the whole picture to be put on public display.

If you really took time to read the threads you would see that although we continue to be seriously pissed off with the changes to Motorcycle levies, we are just as pissed off with other increases planned that even if we gave up Motorcycling, we are going to get screwed by increases in ACC levies that form part of our everyday lives.

Every single person currently pays their share "if" Acc were to be run under the umbrella on which it was founded. Successive Governments have raped those foundation principles and turned it into a circus.

National has the chance to take the right attitude and "fix the problem". Right now, Right here.

But it's not in their nature and their belief is we can fix this by selling it off and letting the rich get richer at the expense of the majority of the population.

You state that you are willing to pay for the increase if it can be proven to be correct and fair.
OUR RESEARCH SHOWS THAT IT IS NEITHER CORRECT NOR FAIR.

Will you be as vocal in your support of our efforts, if there was to be a reduction in levies which our research shows is what should be happening?

I to am happy to meet my "fair share" of taxes and ACC levies.

What I am not going to do is sit back and watch a Government continually LIE and use deception as their memorandom of right.

And this applies to whatever party holds power.

With respect I suggest that you look at the replies posted, not take any of them as a personal attack, but use them to further your insight into this debate that I am convinced will only lead you to the truth.

I am sure that you will then be joining in the next ride.

[Reckless]

Yes you assume the statements are true and they are not!

Firstly-If you start to query statements, stats and figures you have already gone to far!!
This is fast becoming a fight to save the original ACC formula of a no fault system. The Govt are getting it ready to be sold off which we do not agree with, we would like it to stay with the original Woodhouse ethos. I don't see why we have to pump more money into a system that has let costs get out of control and still paid a 700 mil dividend to the govt!

But if you want to even start into the figures the base figures are not good enough to assess who should pay what. Doctors put down "Motorcycle or Bike accident" even if it happens off road (and probably on a cycle). So the base figures are so far out that are unusable in my opinion. But even if they where correct for motorbikes only, I can use their own argument here. Why should road registered bikes pay for another recreational groups accidents ie off road?

There are many other facts and figures that are incorrect as many other posters will no doubt convey but for me these two core issues are very wrong before you even start on all the arguments that follow after!

You sure your not simply on a fact finding mission for the Nats???
We won't stop till the public are informed!

[Ragingrob]

He also has way more cyclist claims.

"Lamb said last year there were 1475 motorcycle accidents in New Zealand and 50 deaths.

By comparison, 36 cyclists died in 1170 bicycle accidents but the cycling community paid no levies."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2969...ike-levy-logic

(
Compared to...

Cyclists:
- 289 new claims
- 567 active claims

Motorcyclists:
- 1336 new claims
- 3173 active claims

From http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/stati...ount/IS0800157
)

Well accidents don't always relate to claims do they?

[Elysium]

Don't know who this guy is or what he does but he speaks crazy talk!

[Mikkel]

Chance is also in your future, to me Chance beats Probability PERIOD! Because it takes EVERYTHING into account that Probability does and then takes everything else into account that Probability doesn't.

The Probability of Chance is 50 - 50!!! Same as anyone in the world!

Everyone aboard the failboat...

Probability - neutral
Chance - positive
Risk - negative

"There is a certain probability per kilometer travelled that a motorcyclist might be involved in a crash - there's a chance he will survive if this occurs, but there is also a risk that he may sustain grievous injury."

[pzkpfw]

Well accidents don't always relate to claims do they?

Then how is it relevant?

[Ragingrob]

Then how is it relevant?

That's what I'm saying...

You're comparing number of accidents with number of ACC claims and stating that they're different, of course they are!!

[StoneY]

Absolutely hilarious

This threads grown faster than Pinichio's nose at a fishing tournament

[mashman]

Everyone aboard the failboat...

Probability - neutral
Chance - positive
Risk - negative

"There is a certain probability per kilometer travelled that a motorcyclist might be involved in a crash - there's a chance he will survive if this occurs, but there is also a risk that he may sustain grievous injury."

chance  /tʃæns, tʃɑns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [chans, chahns] Show IPA noun, verb, chanced, chanc⋅ing, adjective
Use chance in a Sentence
See web results for chance
See images of chance
–noun

1. the absence of any cause of events that can be predicted, understood, or controlled: often personified or treated as a positive agency: Chance governs all.
2. luck or fortune: a game of chance.
3. a possibility or probability of anything happening: a fifty-percent chance of success.
4. an opportune or favorable time; opportunity: Now is your chance.
5. Baseball. an opportunity to field the ball and make a put-out or assist.
6. a risk or hazard: Take a chance.
7. a share or ticket in a lottery or prize drawing: The charity is selling chances for a dollar each.
8. chances, probability: The chances are that the train hasn't left yet.
9. Midland and Southern U.S. a quantity or number (usually fol. by of).
10. Archaic. an unfortunate event; mishap.
–verb (used without object)
11. to happen or occur by chance: It chanced that our arrivals coincided.
–verb (used with object)
12. to take the chances or risks of; risk (often fol. by impersonal it): I'll have to chance it, whatever the outcome.
–adjective
13. not planned or expected; accidental: a chance occurrence.
—Verb phrase
14. chance on or upon, to come upon by chance; meet unexpectedly: She chanced on a rare kind of mushroom during her walk through the woods.
—Idioms
15. by chance, without plan or intent; accidentally: I met her again by chance in a department store in Paris.
16. on the chance, in the mild hope or against the possibility: I'll wait on the chance that she'll come.
17. on the off chance, in the very slight hope or against the very slight possibility.

I stand by what i said

[Mikkel]

chance  /tʃæns, tʃɑns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [chans, chahns] Show IPA noun, verb, chanced, chanc⋅ing, adjective
Use chance in a Sentence
See web results for chance
See images of chance
–noun

1. the absence of any cause of events that can be predicted, understood, or controlled: often personified or treated as a positive agency: Chance governs all.
2. luck or fortune: a game of chance.
3. a possibility or probability of anything happening: a fifty-percent chance of success.
4. an opportune or favorable time; opportunity: Now is your chance.
5. Baseball. an opportunity to field the ball and make a put-out or assist.
6. a risk or hazard: Take a chance.
7. a share or ticket in a lottery or prize drawing: The charity is selling chances for a dollar each.
8. chances, probability: The chances are that the train hasn't left yet.
9. Midland and Southern U.S. a quantity or number (usually fol. by of).
10. Archaic. an unfortunate event; mishap.
–verb (used without object)
11. to happen or occur by chance: It chanced that our arrivals coincided.
–verb (used with object)
12. to take the chances or risks of; risk (often fol. by impersonal it): I'll have to chance it, whatever the outcome.
–adjective
13. not planned or expected; accidental: a chance occurrence.
—Verb phrase
14. chance on or upon, to come upon by chance; meet unexpectedly: She chanced on a rare kind of mushroom during her walk through the woods.
—Idioms
15. by chance, without plan or intent; accidentally: I met her again by chance in a department store in Paris.
16. on the chance, in the mild hope or against the possibility: I'll wait on the chance that she'll come.
17. on the off chance, in the very slight hope or against the very slight possibility.

I stand by what i said

It's hard not to stand by it when you've written it and it has been quoted.

... that doesn't make it any more intelligible though.

[firefighter]

Are my observations wrong that there seem to be more bikers driving recklessly than car drivers? Perhaps I travel a different motorway to everyone else :-\

Eghm.

I guess lanesplitting looks pretty dangerous to a cager, which you obviously are, in fact I highly doubt you ride at all.

I would have never, ever personally have thought more motorcyclists rode recklessly than car drivers drive. Even well before I started riding.

How many teens do I see doing burnouts, trying to imitate "The fast and the furious" and adults in their trucks or shiny Holdens bullying other motorists?......a lot more than I see from bikers, at least the biker is'nt likely to injure or kill anyone else.....eh?

Different motorway indeed mr car driver man........

Now fuck off, this is a bikers website.

[Tank]

Now fuck off, this is a bikers website.

but, but, but - you ride a Honda ..