Another pressure point

[Jantar]

If you could explain that, I'd be forever grateful.

As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

That's you and me. And pretty much any employed (or unemployed) person who doesn't own a business, or is not self-employed.

So can you provide a link to show how businesses pay "more GST"?

TIA.

In effect, you are right. But GST is paid all along the chain, just as the total cost of running any business is also passed on to the end consumer. There are many costs to running a business other simply buying and selling products. Services, labour etc are all charged to the end consumer, but may be paid and collected many times between the raw product and the end consumer. In most cases (except retail) the business is the end consumer and hence pays the GST. This is just a cost of running the business and of course those costs are eventually passed on to the end consumer. If this didn't happen the business would soon go broke.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

They would only be able to claim the gst back not the levy back and the levy is on everything anyway.

At the end of the day there is not enough money to pay all debts... if all the debt was paid there would be no money left in circulation and people still in debt, thats they way the moneitory sysem works... its flawed. You need to watch moviedoco's "Zeitgeist Addendum " interesting... very very interesting... the money in your pocket is not real... which is what is happening with ACC and National government... torrent download (oh it is a free download)

The only people that are getting wealthy are the bankers... The monitory system is flawed and basically slavery...

how can 1% of the people own 40% of the wealth of this 3rd rock from the sun...

[dpex]

If you could explain that, I'd be forever grateful.

As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

That's you and me. And pretty much any employed (or unemployed) person who doesn't own a business, or is not self-employed.

So can you provide a link to show how businesses pay "more GST"?

TIA.

See what I mean about the failing education system?

Businesses pay GST on the difference between their purchase costs and their sales incomes.

You will (hopefully) appreciate that every business has to 'sell' its goods/services for more than their entire cost of doing business. The result is called profit.

Thus a business which pays for all of it's stock, running expenses, et al, for say $100, yet makes sales of its goods/services for say $120, will pay GST on the difference. $20. (ergo $2.22)

The exceptions to the rule are financial institutions...AKA banks. They claim GST for all expenses yet pay not one jot of GST on their profits.

Thus business GST is calculated on the 'difference between income and expenses...except financial expenses, for example, overdraft costs, which are exempt GST.

The question which has arisen in my mind, from writing the foregoing is, 'Do the miserable bastards (the Gov) charge GST on ACC payments? My bet is that they do.

Hmmm. Now there's a can of worms I'd like to open.

I know they charge GST on rates, and given that rates are a tax, the GST content represents a tax on a tax.

I'll get back to you about this issue. Maybe it's a cause for yet another protest.

Bikers are allowed to protest about non-specific-biker issues, ya know.

[Brian d marge]

They would only be able to claim the gst back not the levy back and the levy is on everything anyway.

At the end of the day there is not enough money to pay all debts... if all the debt was paid there would be no money left in circulation and people still in debt, thats they way the moneitory sysem works... its flawed. You need to watch moviedoco's "Zeitgeist Addendum " interesting... very very interesting... the money in your pocket is not real... which is what is happening with ACC and National government... torrent download (oh it is a free download)

The only people that are getting wealthy are the bankers... The monitory system is flawed and basically slavery...

how can 1% of the people own 40% of the wealth of this 3rd rock from the sun...

Can I add to that

I was listening to an interesting debate about growth

Does a country need to...grow? or remain stable ? ,, does a business need to grow ? larger ? or just remain stable?

Got me a thinking

ps that is an interesting download ...even if you dont believe its still a good watch

Stephen

[MSTRS:Me]

If you could explain that, I'd be forever grateful.

As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

That's you and me. And pretty much any employed (or unemployed) person who doesn't own a business, or is not self-employed.

So can you provide a link to show how businesses pay "more GST"?

TIA.

Red herring. It matters not whether a business pays more/less/same GST. Under Jantars proposal there would be 2.5% collected on top of the 12.5% Gst, and that 2.5% would be unrecoverable by that business. Every single transaction that involves Gst would include the added 2.5% ACC levy.

The question which has arisen in my mind, from writing the foregoing is, 'Do the miserable bastards (the Gov) charge GST on ACC payments? My bet is that they do.

You'd win that bet. Just look at the form you are issued when your rego is due. It's spelled out quite clearly. GST is applied to the total of all charges.

[avgas]

I'm currently looking at the Corporate Governance and Financial's of ACC.
See if it ready for the real world wake-up outside the Govt womb.
May just shatter Key's precious little plan.

[MSTRS:Me]

I'm currently looking at the Corporate Governance and Financial's of ACC.
See if it ready for the real world wake-up outside the Govt womb.
May just shatter Key's precious little plan.

You'd do well to keep Ixion informed of your progress in that regard.

[newbould]

They would only be able to claim the gst back not the levy back and the levy is on everything anyway.

Business must be alowed ot claim back both the GST and the ACC component of their expenses. Otherwise the GST / ACC levy component of a product gets more and more.
Say we buy something for $10, work on it and sell it for $15. Next person works on it and sells it for $30. Plus levy on the final price - 2% did you say = 60c. Levy collected by Gvt. This requires each processor to be able to reclaim the acc levy on the purchase they made. Otherwise the gvt collects 20 c (on the first $10 purchase) plus 30c (on the next transaction) plus 60 c = 1.10. the acc portion of the amount finally paid by the consumer goes from 60 c to $1.10 - bacause the businesses will have to add on the acc levy part of their expenses each time they sell the product. Now the final cost of the product to the consumer is 31.10 instead of 30.60 and the acc proportion is now 3.5% instead of 2%.
Do that all with 12.5% gst and you will see that if business was not allowed to reclaim genuine business gst expenses the proportion of gst paid by the consumer would be huge.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

Otherwise the GST / ACC levy component of a product gets more and more.

It does that anyway..

however it is no different now... you are paying the business ACC levy now with every thing you buy to cover that levy... they can't claim that levy back

GST will still be at 12.5% as it is now... the levy is just added to as the collection model.


The problem being our monitory system is inherinty flawed right from the start and it is just a huge pyramid scheme and those at the top are the only ones that benefit from it

[MSTRS:Me]

Business must be alowed ot claim back both the GST and the ACC component of their expenses. Otherwise the GST / ACC levy component of a product gets more and more.
Say we buy something for $10, work on it and sell it for $15. Next person works on it and sells it for $30. Plus levy on the final price - 2% did you say = 60c. Levy collected by Gvt. This requires each processor to be able to reclaim the acc levy on the purchase they made. Otherwise the gvt collects 20 c (on the first $10 purchase) plus 30c (on the next transaction) plus 60 c = 1.10. the acc portion of the amount finally paid by the consumer goes from 60 c to $1.10 - bacause the businesses will have to add on the acc levy part of their expenses each time they sell the product. Now the final cost of the product to the consumer is 31.10 instead of 30.60 and the acc proportion is now 3.5% instead of 2%.
Do that all with 12.5% gst and you will see that if business was not allowed to reclaim genuine business gst expenses the proportion of gst paid by the consumer would be huge.

I see what you are getting at.
The 2.5% is just a suggested figure. If it's too high, bearing in mind the compound nature of each selling stage, then it would be appropriately reduced, across the board. The end result, however, is that each step of the process from manufacture/import to the customer pays a given % in ACC levies. The customer pays the most in dollar terms, but that is how things are now anyway.

[TOTO]

Yea, apart from going to 4 auckland protests, going to the Bikeoi, distributing leafletts, contributing to BRONZ funds, e-mailing all the MPs from national and Labour party, leaving telephone messages to about 20 national MPs, plus 3x to dr. Nick and 5x times to Johney Key, wearing protest high Vizibility vests and arm bands - fuck all mr dpex.

People are alot more motivated than you think, and on average spend less time bithcing on the internet than you do !

[candor]

An inquisition would be good right now. KBers as the ACC experts in charge.