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Thread: Proposed new ACC campaign association - a new direction

  1. #1
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    Proposed new ACC campaign association - a new direction

    It's become apparent that ACC is unfair and the premiums are too expensive for motorcyclists.

    It's also apparent that this government doesn't have the political capital to drive through the legislation changes required to drop lump sum ACC levies attached to motor vehicle registration and charge ACC levies through fairer systems such as;

    1. Increased GST, (The Dpex preferred option).
    2. Road User (mileage) Charges for all road users .
    3. or much higher petrol levies and diesel levies.
    4. or Single Flat Rate ACC levy for all motorists.


    Because the government doesn't have the political capatal to enact any of the above their only solution is to hand the problem to private insurers and let them bear the political cost.

    OK so the question is in our heart of hearts do we really believe they really privatise the road user account?

    You do the logic! (It's a variation on you do the math). The ACC is hell bent on adopting a fully funded model. We don't fully fund superannuation, health care or any other state service in New Zealand so ask yourself why just ACC? ...


    Today I have come to the conclusion that motorcyclists as a group will be one of the few road user groups who will benefit from privatising the motor vehicle account of ACC ...and bringing back the right to sue - read on and I will explain why it's in the interests of motorcyclists to urgently push for the introduction of COMPULSORY FULL personal injury road user insurance for all road users.

    Here's why:

    1. ACC doesn't take prevention seriously. (Nick Smith is on record saying it doesn't work (at the Tamaki National party supporters meeting). When it's privatised the insurance companies will offer incentives to put the fences at the top of the cliff.
    2. We are developing an attitude and acceptance of user pays and that as a nation our attitues have changed and no one wants to subsidise anyone else. Privatisation supports these new attitudes.
    3. Because retired road users who don't have a salary, don't qualify for ACC Earnings Replacement Compensation if they a motor vehicle accident - yet they pay the same motor vehicle ACC levies as everyone else. John Judge says that's just not fair. As a consequence the retired are subsidising John Key's, Nick Smith's and John Judge's ACC Insurance premiums.
    4. For similar reasons to those above, motorists on lower incomes are subsidising Earnings Replacement Compensation payments for those like Nick Smith and John Key on higher incomes. Again, John Judge has pointed out the inequity of this.
    5. Because Nick Smith has said that the rapidly increasing injury, rehabilitation and ERC costs for cyclists "will be covered by higher employer and employee ACC levies" However injury, rehabilitation and ERC costs for cyclists are not paid out of the workers account - but erroneously out of the road users account. ACC's accounts have become so muddled that we rob Peter to pay Paul in a confusing array of ways that's skews and obfuscates any attempt at sensible analysis and makes a ridicule of the notion of having separate accounts and levies.
    6. because people who own multiple vehicles are paying multiple levies, yet can only drive/ride one vehicle at a time.
    7. and because there are riders now who didn't ride a motorcycle between 1972 to 1999. Why should they be paying anything towards the residual costs from this period?
    8. Because riders of larger bikes are being asked to pay higher ACC levies. Nick Smith has failed to demonstrate any correlation with any statistics to explain why this should be the case.
    9. The premiums ACC wants to charge are justified on the lies ACC has sold to the public such as "Motorcyclists are 16 times more likely to be injured". Whereas the premiums private insurance companies set are determined by skilled actuaries who take into account your risk profile and ensure they make a fair profit for the share holders (and I intend to buy some shares in them with the money I save on my low risk profile adjusted premiums).
    10. Because New Zealanders are fair minded, fair players, on the rugby field etc and we just won't accept something that is so blatently unfair. A large percentage of Motorcyclists just won't register their vehicles and the decisions made by the National Party will bias the way a large percentage of the population votes at the next election.




    A call by motorcyclists to privatise ACC to lower our costs will highlight that
    :
    1. we believe we are being charged a disproportionately high levy
    2. demonstrate that under a fair insurance scheme that car drivers have to insure themselves for the damage they do to motorcyclists when they are at fault. Rather than the current scheme whereby motorcyclists are expected to pay a premium to cover drivers mistakes. Insurance companies understand that the motorist at fault needs to take financial responsibility for the accident they caused.
    3. This is why third party motor vehicle accident personal injury insurance is cheaper for motorcyclists than car drivers in Australia and elsewhere in the world (source: http://www.mac.sa.gov.au/xstd_files/...al%20aug09.pdf) For example in South Australia compulsory third pary insurance for a car driver costs $483.00 but only $390 for a motorcyle greater than 660cc.[/B][/SIZE]
    4. Where National is taking ACC



    I believe that John Judge's ACC Insurance can compete alongside the private companies to moderate their excesses in the way that Kiwi Bank moderates the Australian banks in New Zealand to some extent.

    To this end I have established an association of motorcyclists who wish to campaign for this on these grounds. Membership to this new association is free....but you are expected to be an active member of the campaign. Of course you can still belong to BRONZ or Ulysses even though their objectives and manifestos are quite different with regards to ACC.

    Now one key question: How do you think the rest of New Zealand will react when we tell them we want privatised motor vehicle personal insurance because it will be cheaper for us?

    Who's going to join my campaign?
    (PM me if you want to join this campaign.)

    I think at this stage the best name for this campaign group is 'Privatise ACC Insurance Now'

    Wobblyas
    President P.A.I.N. Campaign
    Last edited by FastBikeGear; 3rd December 2009 at 06:53. Reason: The first post in this thread will be continually revised as ideas come to mind
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  2. #2
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    You dont really want to go there. Its an all or nothing move and im pretty damm sure NZ'rs dont want to go back there. I, like you, qualify for 8/10ths of fuck all with ERC but as a student ACC is a damn sight better for us. I would rather support those in need in the community (cross subsidisation) and have the piece of mind that should anything happen to me i'll get the same treatment no questions asked.


  3. #3
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    So I will tell you why I went to Wellington to protest.

    “1” Do away with the “ Fully funded forward” plan.

    “2” To ask the Government to be up front with its plans for ACC. “ Are you going to sell it?”. If yes then what rules will you put in place?

    “3” Make sure you treat ever part of society fairly. Ie riders, sports players etc

    I would like to look at the following to replace ACC or run along side ACC,

    “1” Private insurance scheme that will reward for Risk Management. A system to run along side the private option to cover people who do not want or are unable to have private insurance.

    “2” The right to recover the cost from others should I not be in the wrong.

    “ 3” All people that have risk, IE Rugby players, pushbikes on the road, race riders/driver etc must pay according to risk.


    Now the problem areas I see,
    As above. A student rides a bike to keep the cost down. My son is an apprentice and does exactly this. He needs cover of some sort but is unlikely to get private insurance due to his age and the perceived risk. Who covers the people that have a dirt bike down the river? Who covers the ones that thumbs their nose at the system and crash anyway? Do we leave them to die? Obviously not, but what do we do? Take them to hospital and keep them alive and then send them home to manage themselves with no further help from the Heath system? I don't think so. I don’t know the answer to these and many other questions. But I do know that the mentality of some indicates that the system we have now is only fuelling stupid things cos others will pay.

    The previous Government was happy to let people have unlimited time at physiotherapy and many other expenses that should have been pulled back. Hence the cost of the care ballooned out of control per claim..

    I have had a few conversations with other riders that freely admit that they would slow down if they had private insurance cos if they crash the cost of reinsuring would be so expensive they just could not afford it. So they need an incentive to manage risk now and ACC is not providing that.

    So in short, the system we have sort of works. I can’t see how we could cover everyone under a private system. I know the fully funded forward idea is crap and can not work, other than to make the ACC look good enough to sell. I want to be rewarded for not claiming but still have the cover should I crash. I want to make sure all people have the chance to have cover but if you don’t manage risk then you pay. So I suppose I want my cake and eat it at the same time.
    Let the debate continue and I might see light at the end of the tunnel in time. We could have a much cheaper system if people would manage risk. And that doesn’t mean risk management will stop all accidents but it could help to reduce the cost and the frequency of them.


    This thread started from here.....
    http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...d.php?t=113983

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggles View Post
    You dont really want to go there. Its an all or nothing move and im pretty damm sure NZ'rs dont want to go back there. I, like you, qualify for 8/10ths of fuck all with ERC but as a student ACC is a damn sight better for us. I would rather support those in need in the community (cross subsidisation) and have the piece of mind that should anything happen to me i'll get the same treatment no questions asked.
    You have a good points here.

    I really want people who manage, the risk, to be rewarded for their efforts. Just like your insurance company do. Don't crash you get a cheaper cover. So to get that you need to change the " no faults/blame" part of ACC.

    But noone wants an accident hence it is called an accident but we can do things to help prevent accidents. The currant system doesn’t reward good risk management.

    And under the last government we spent stupid amounts on things like Physiotherapy and that racked up the cost of each claim. I note as soon as the free treatment ended most people stopped going. Hmmmmm

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    As I stated somewhere: Bikers agree on only one thing: The proposed new levies are too high. THAT is what we are protersting against. Together.

    Once you take it past that being a biker or not looses the importance. And we all have different ideas. I want all to go back to what ACC was in the beginning. I am against any plans of privatisation

    May the bridges I burn light the way.

    Follow Vinny's MX racing on www.mxvinny.com


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conquiztador View Post
    As I stated somewhere: Bikers agree on only one thing: The proposed new levies are too high. THAT is what we are protersting against. Together.

    Once you take it past that being a biker or not looses the importance. And we all have different ideas. I want all to go back to what ACC was in the beginning. I am against any plans of privatisation
    No to privatization.
    You want to split the campaign? Play right into Nick's hands?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post

    “1” Private insurance scheme that will reward for Risk Management.
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post
    A system to run along side the private option to cover people who do not want or are unable to have private insurance.
    I agree kind of like the Kiwi Bank.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post
    “2” The right to recover the cost from others should I not be in the wrong.
    absolutely


    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post
    “ 3” All people that have risk, IE Rugby players, pushbikes on the road, race riders/driver etc must pay according to risk.
    Yes


    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post
    Now the problem areas I see,
    As above. A student rides a bike to keep the cost down. My son is an apprentice and does exactly this. He needs cover of some sort but is unlikely to get private insurance due to his age and the perceived risk.
    the higer the risk the higher the premium, the greater the profit opportunities for the insurance companies. If he can't afford to pay for the risk - he can't afafford to do the activity.[/quote]


    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post
    Who covers the people that have a dirt bike down the river? Who covers the ones that thumbs their nose at the system and crash anyway? Do we leave them to die? Obviously not, but what do we do? Take them to hospital and keep them alive and then send them home to manage themselves with no further help from the Heath system?
    Yes and put them on sickness beneficiaries not ACC ERC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post
    The previous Government was happy to let people have unlimited time at physiotherapy and many other expenses that should have been pulled back. Hence the cost of the care ballooned out of control per claim.
    Your right on the button again. If Physio hasn't fixed the problem after 6 weeks then any fruther physio will have a very diminishing return on investement


    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post
    Let the debate continue and I might see light at the end of the tunnel in time. We could have a much cheaper system if people would manage risk. And that doesn’t mean risk management will stop all accidents but it could help to reduce the cost and the frequency of them.

    This thread started from here.....
    http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...d.php?t=113983
    www.FastBikeGear.co.nz
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by NONONO View Post
    No to privatization.
    You want to split the campaign? Play right into Nick's hands?
    Yes, I want to support National in their agenda to privatise ACC. I want to show New Zealand what we are going to get and why it benefits motorcyclists, and the retired, and the low income most.
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    Again: To be a "biker" you only need to own/ride/have an interest in bikes. nothing else matters. Your political conviction does not come in to it, or your occupation, if you are employed or on a benefit, you are a police or a crim.

    So we can realistically only agree on one thing: The levies are NOT to go up.

    Apart from that...

    May the bridges I burn light the way.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conquiztador View Post
    As I stated somewhere: Bikers agree on only one thing: The proposed new levies are too high. THAT is what we are protersting against. Together.
    On this we agreed in two other threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conquiztador View Post
    Once you take it past that being a biker or not looses the importance. And we all have different ideas. I want all to go back to what ACC was in the beginning. I am against any plans of privatisation
    We need to agree to disagree. As we did in the H/Bay thread. Then it got sent to the bin. If my discussing the other ideas undermines the fight with the government then we need to build a stronger case. I am only one person in a very small voice , K/B, for the bike riders of NZ. What I think will have little influence on the big picture. But if I want to ask questions and opinion of others here how will that weaken our resolve to better the ACC?

    I have stayed away from the H/Bay thread to stop you and others getting upset about me wanting to discuss other ideas. So I have made the effort to stop antagonizing you. But I have the right to discuss this if I think there is another option. Looks like some people think there is. I will protest about the increases. But I think we should look at other solutions at the same time.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conquiztador View Post
    Again: To be a "biker" you only need to own/ride/have an interest in bikes. nothing else matters. Your political conviction does not come in to it, or your occupation, if you are employed or on a benefit, you are a police or a crim.

    So we can realistically only agree on one thing: The levies are NOT to go up.

    Apart from that...
    No I can't agree on this. The premiums determined by insurance companies are set by actuaries to take into acccount your risk profile and ensure they make a fair profit for the share holders (and I intend to buy some shares in them with the money I save on my low risk profile adjusted premiums). If you or any car driver has a higher risk profile you should pay your fair share. I don't want to subsidise you.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by koba View Post
    No.
    No.... No what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer 4 ever View Post
    On this we agreed in two other threads.

    We need to agree to disagree. As we did in the H/Bay thread. Then it got sent to the bin. If my discussing the other ideas undermines the fight with the government then we need to build a stronger case. I am only one person in a very small voice , K/B, for the bike riders of NZ. What I think will have little influence on the big picture. But if I want to ask questions and opinion of others here how will that weaken our resolve to better the ACC?

    I have stayed away from the H/Bay thread to stop you and others getting upset about me wanting to discuss other ideas. So I have made the effort to stop antagonizing you. But I have the right to discuss this if I think there is another option. Looks like some people think there is. I will protest about the increases. But I think we should look at other solutions at the same time.
    I am happy to disagree with you re this. Your opinion does not raise my bloodpressure. I actually welcome your opinion. My point is that we need to be united to get a result. Therefore we need to take it back to where we all agree. And, as we concluded in the now dead HB thread, that point is the unacceptable increase of ACC levies. Once that is achieved, and one wants to stay active re this all, then it becomes an issue of finding allies to take that further. And at that stage we will stand on different sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wobblyas View Post
    No I can't agree on this. The premiums determined gy insurance companies are set by actuaries to take into acccount your risk profile and ensure they make a fair profit for the share holders (and I intend to buy some shares in them with the money I save on my low risk profile adjusted premiums). If you or any car driver has a higher risk profile you should pay your fair share. I don't want to subsidise you.
    You are talking about eroding ACC to a state where it is just another insurance, where the premium is determined by a multitude of factors. We will have to agree to disagree here, as I am totally against this. But if that is where it goies I want the right to sue back. And I will sue every bastard who makes me or my kids have an accident. But that is what you are looking for. You a lawyer by chance?

    May the bridges I burn light the way.

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conquiztador View Post
    You are talking about eroding ACC to a state where it is just another insurance, where the premium is determined by a multitude of factors.... I want the right to sue back. And I will sue every bastard who makes me or my kids have an accident. But that is what you are looking for.
    Absolutely. Those who cause the accident should be sued until they pay and pay!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conquiztador View Post
    You a lawyer by chance?
    No. I am a retired businessman. I now do some free sales and marketing mentoring. (Occassionally I charge for some of this work.)
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