Making excuses (pt II)

[Bren]

Bullshit. Everyone's brain is a supercomputer. It's just that far too many people are too fucking lazy to learn how to use it.

I am so glad that you are so superior to us then....

[Katman]

I am so glad that you are so superior to us then....

Fair enough, if you're happy to consider yourself inferior............

[dipshit]

Just had an idiot on a Tiger bloody near collect my ute... using a merge lane for passing.

It's a said fact, that whenever i see a motorcyclist on the road, i treat them with extra caution as there seems to be a higher probability than most of the other road users that they will do something dumb.

[Foxzee]

to start with.. ignore the track. track riding teaches you how to ride on the track. nothing more, nothing less.
I worry when people say... I went to this trackday and learnt how my bike handles on this hairpin and I was going really good and. .. (whatever).
No consideration for the fact that the rider had 20 attempts at the same *cambered* corner on a track that is equivelent to a 5 lane road with no hazzards.
In the real world. Road riding is completely different. The corners are not setup for racing and you dont get to practice the same corners over and over again. Alot more attention to reading the road and hazzard identification would serve alot of riders well. That and banning the sale of Gixxers as they seem to be crashing alot.

Why ignore the track...13 yr old riders out there doing...70 year old riders are out there doing it and I must say there are more hazards on the track that require rider awareness....Road riding more hazards again....The racers I know that are road riders are pretty proficient at both... Trackdays are different I agee there...still noone (Hitcher grammer) has answered my question....ideas, thought,suggestions to make rider training happen.....

[cowboyz]

nah, speed differential is big, but would still mean the biker would be able to see the car entering the corner, and thus should slow speed to avoid the collision

oh right.. so what your saying is that this wouldnt be an accident because the bike should be able to see the car so the only possibly explanation for this is that the bike hits the car on purpose and therefore this wouldnt be classed as an accident. Do you think that the rider would still be eligable for ACC?

And what, cage drivers dont blame everything else...They seldom see themselves to blame...
An Accident though is just that...Accidental!!!

awesome argument there! Noone else takes responibility so neither should I!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It must be nice knowing that you ride so perfectly you will never have an accident. I guess you dont need to wear leathers or a helmet???

dont miss the point. I am full of confidence when I ride. I have been doing it for a long time. However I do ride in full leathers, boots and gloves as well as a full faced helmet. I also have full comprehensive insurance on my bike.

Not because I think aliens will knock me off my bike at any point in time.. Its because I know I am human and one day, someday, I *might* make a mistake I cant recover from. If that day happens I want to make sure I come off it in the best condition I can. I dont feel the need to go seeking blame. I know that if I dont make it home it will be because I pushed too hard when I shouldnt have. I am willing to take responsibility for that.

[dipshit]

Are we so PC that we can't talk about these things without fear of upsetting people, or is it that we as motorcycle riders can't bring ourselves to drop the "bulletproof" mentality that so many of us have adopted?

I always find it ironic that "big tough motorcyclists" start crying like a bunch of five year old girls because someone said something unpleasant.

[cowboyz]

Why ignore the track...13 yr old riders out there doing...70 year old riders are out there doing it and I must say there are more hazards on the track that require rider awareness....Road riding more hazards again....The racers I know that are road riders are pretty proficient at both... Trackdays are different I agee there...still noone (Hitcher grammer) has answered my question....ideas, thought,suggestions to make rider training happen.....

please explain? You totally lost me with that one?????????

[bogan]

oh right.. so what your saying is that this wouldnt be an accident because the bike should be able to see the car so the only possibly explanation for this is that the bike hits the car on purpose and therefore this wouldnt be classed as an accident. Do you think that the rider would still be eligable for ACC?

no, I'm saying that in this case if a collision were to occur, the rider would be primarily at fault, its still and accident. Well he wouldnt be elligible if nick had his way, but yeh, he should get ACC.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for riders taking more responsibility in possible hazard identification/avoidance, but I dont think saying that every accident is the riders fault is a good idea. In 99% of accidents the rider could have taken steps to avoid it, ie "Accidents can be avoided on a motorcycle, you just have to try harder than other motorists" is a better message (imo) than "All your accidents are your own fault, tow the line and do something about it"

[Foxzee]

please explain? You totally lost me with that one?????????

Speed because there is no limit........

I'm still waiting for ideas to make our game a happy and safer one......

[Katman]

I'm still waiting for ideas to make our game a happy and safer one......

Believe me, it's not a game.

[T.W.R]

Quite frankly, I think it's the very place (and time) that it's most needed.

When the pain is the rawest is when the most can be learnt from it.

Those who continue to venerate those who die on a motorcycle through that person's lack of common sense and forethought, cheapen the gift that Motorcycling has to offer us.

You're a self imposed prophet of motorcycling aren't you

bounding into threads of peoples accidents especially like todays effort when it was of the death of a KB member, picking a comment about what was a major contributing factor and a recognised fault with that piece of road without even knowing anything about the area was a total , totally inconsiderate to the people involved and disrespectful. wonder why it ended up in PD? because of your arrogance.

A few things you say are true but your manner, forethought and approach are like steam rising of a fresh turd...... you're a KB version of Brian Tamaki

There are plenty here that in the real world were motorcycling actually happens that are most likely more situationally aware than you and when some pick holes in your arguements you scorn them. No one is perfect and everyone rides their own ride and I guarantee if you were put under the microscope you'd have plenty of holes in your holier than thou bubble too

[Nasty]

While we continue to blame environmental circumstances for our accidents we will continue to be seen as a joke by the powers that be and by the general public.

There has been no discussion on environment from those involved - so who is blaming that ... with Grubs - he was to blame .. he was the only one involved and he had the accident ... read the coroners report - I posted it for all to see. In this ACCIDENT - there is no information - so why you picking on something you KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. Some people mentioned a bridge, some the wind and some again mentioned that there may have been various things going on ... but taking something up in the thread that the widow had posted in and was following was not only insensitive (which you are known to be) ... but ignorant - I have to thank god you didn't do this with me re Grub.

It's a shame that you are unable to see that you're own one-eyed and obsessive approach is as unbalanced as the lunatic fringe that you condemn.

The reality is that the environment is often a major factor in accidents. Even the "powers that be" recognise that.

Your gleeful dancing on the dead bodies of accident victims in support of your bludgeoning crusade, is crass and insensitive to both the victims and their grieving loved ones.

As always, you reject the notion of "time and place", and continue your on-line tirades, in the faces of those grieving and shocked people.

Business as usual, eh...?

Always ... I have no problem with these threads - away from where the widow is going to read - I have an issue with the fact that this delivery just as normal sux.

Cry me a river.

I would .. but you don't seem worth it really ....

Hey guys and girls.....

As it has been said "accidents happen"...and some are just pure accidents..no fault, no blame, no stupid riding, no stupid other conditions that put us at risk.....

I've lost a few very close mates to "accidents"..and as it was stated in the Coronors court "this is a court of no blame"...those words are so true, it's a medium to attempt to stop other's going the same way as we can't bring back our loved ones but can seek solice in what maybe can been done to prevent this death happening to someone else's loved one, child or best mate.

I agree at times accidents happen - and they happen to good people, who ride well and know the risks of riding. Everytime I walk out the door of my home I pray that no accident comes by my path as that is just as dangerous .. and deadly.

The coroners counrt plays an awesome role ... they can't do anything, can not enforce anything - and make recommendations in hope they are taken on board.

See, in my view that's a great part of the problem, and one of Katmans' greatest points - all too often when shit happens, we (and I'm saying both motorcycle riders AND car drivers) look to apportion blame to "the environment" when in simple fact, the majority of motorcycle accidents can be avoided by rider awareness of their abilities, their machines abilities and the environs that they ride in.

I used to be a huge critic of Katman, however when I stopped taking the apparent sleights and insults (as so many seem to take them) so personally, then I had to admit to myself, the bastard makes a lot of sense.

But hey, this is purely my own opinion.

I am not a critic of Katman - I just find his delivery a little hard to take - sometimes he seems to get it right .. but today once again he seems to have lost the plot and everyone is to blame who rides.

Seeking solace is bullshit.

Seeking education will save lives.

Heres hoping that no ill befalls your family mate - cos it is sure shit when it does.

Lots of us seek education, receive it, take it well on board, and yet still are not quite perfect.

Biggoted arrogance is in the same league too

This will make no sense to the biggoted arrogant person who you refer - due to arrogance they can not see the wood for the trees.

The problem is not the message, no one will say that katman doesn't have some valid points. There is however better ways of delivering said message.

Better and more appropriate places too.

I agree, - at least now he started a seperate thread - so everyone can ignore if they wish.

Okay, so let's be constructive here - what would be a better way of conveying the message?

What would be the most appropriate place?

We all know many riders, and chances are many of us know a few or more that have wound up dead. Sorry for the blunt talk, it's my upbringing.

Are we so PC that we can't talk about these things without fear of upsetting people, or is it that we as motorcycle riders can't bring ourselves to drop the "bulletproof" mentality that so many of us have adopted?

I think the seperate thread is a smart move myself - his message was inappropriate where it was ... I ain't PC re death of a rider - and I certainly have received support from this site regarding Grubs death - and have lost more friends than I ever thought I would.

When a person is grieving each word cuts like a knive - they know more about the failings of the person who has died and often the situation that caused the death than anyone will ever know unless they have been there, and I mean lost their soul mate.

The outcome of the accident seems to have a huge influence on people's opinions on here.

My accident was relatively high speed, I survived with minimal injuries (although bad enough in their own way) - no one gave me shit about it when it happened and I can say, without saying too much, Katman treated me no differently than he would any other on here. His point is nothing personal, even extending to members of his own family.

I have no issue with that, and feel that his point was entirely justifiable.

As soon as there is death though people's emotions obviously go into overdrive in response to statements, which in themselves are not incorrect.

As for the posts being moved to PD they were not personal insults to the person/people involved - yes I did go in there to read them.

The reason I would assume it was moved would be it was discussion of the accident in an inappropriate thread (this is a guess).

Bullshit.

An individual's failure to factor in environmental circumstances is what is to blame.

I agree in some ways. In others, I still think your delivery and methodology sux - if you acutally want to education - try learning how - due to your delivery people close their eyes and ears.

Quite frankly, I think it's the very place (and time) that it's most needed.

When the pain is the rawest is when the most can be learnt from it.

Those who continue to venerate those who die on a motorcycle through that person's lack of common sense and forethought, cheapen the gift that Motorcycling has to offer us.

You actually have no idea of the pain - I hate to say it, but I am fairly certain I am right there. Your delivery method choosen has not succeeded again, and has isolated those who could learn. I think you are right re place and time, I think that you have a lot to learn about delivery.

[James Deuce]

no, I'm saying that in this case if a collision were to occur, the rider would be primarily at fault, its still and accident. Well he wouldnt be elligible if nick had his way, but yeh, he should get ACC.

Everyone is eligible for ACC irrespective of fault, remember?

Every accident I've had has been my responsibility. My most recent one, 3 years ago, was low speed as I was braking to a halt at an intersection into a very deep gravel drift. My eyes were on the traffic approaching, not the ground. My responsibility though. I'd only just gotten out of hospital after having the worst case of flu with an added dose of pneumonia and was much weaker than I thought I was.

I shouldn't have been riding. A car appeared suddenly, I hadn't grokked the gravel, I fell off. It wasn't the gravel or the car it was me. I was still too unwell to reliably control my bike.

[carver]

But there are sum that just shouldn't!!!!!... lol

that is ab bit rich

[cowboyz]

Speed because there is no limit........

I'm still waiting for ideas to make our game a happy and safer one......

oh FFS! Go sit in the stupid corner.

lets review.

hazzards on a track.........

slower riders (warned with a flag)
oil (warned with a flag)
accident ahead (warned with a flag)

hazzards on a road.
other road users
gravel on road
decreasing radius corners (or misreading corners)
oil
diesel
paint
stock
roadworks



Ummmm I am sure if you think about it you could add a few more to both lists.

still want to press forward with your "track has more hazzards" theory?

As for rider education. Riders dont learn. Learning is boring and repeditive and people dont want to do it. The only real hope is people get sick of reading some rants on some random website and thinking that they might need to pay attention to whats going on when they are riding or take some responisbility when they fuck up