Constructive advice to government

[CookMySock]

Use the power of positive thinking, when the going gets tough to save your arse push on that bar, put that into your top paddock " going is getting tough!! push push looking for that way out, always do that and when it is time to panic your "brain" will use those thoughts to stay safe...

This is the category I find myself in. I had one bad scare and now I prefer not to provoke such a thing in the near future.

How I wish I had been bought into the sport steering with the bars. My 16 son has, and he had his 650 for a week (6F) and cleaned the strips right off that, without fear whatsoever, and I much rather I thought (or rather believed) like he does, but put simply, I can never go there as my brain doesn't work that way without conscious input, and that conscious input goes out the window when I get a scare. So basically I reckon I'm fucked - doomed to touring forever.

Steve

[avgas]

egg sucking must be common place these days. Ulysses seems to think we could all suck a bit more.

Sorry I don't buy a bar of any of this bullshit - If people need help they need to learn lesson one : Ask for it.

Riding a bike is something that you can assess at a level of safety - and that it. After then its completely up to the rider.

I am not claiming that I am the greatest rider (or any of that bullshit), but I happily learn by doing. If I don't want to learn something I wont.

I see no value in telling people they HAVE to learn to ride. Just an excuse for why we are getting ripped off.
This is exactly why I don't like Ulysses and BRONZ - why are their decisions good enough for the rest of us?
Have my own thoughts thanks - shove yours up your arse.

I will come back to this thread when I have calmed down a bit - and offer some constructive advice. Sorry about the rant
_Stew

[jeffs]

Sorry I don't buy a bar of any of this bullshit - If people need help they need to learn lesson one : Ask for it.

Stew I did not say go to BRONZ or Ulysses for training, I suspect ACC will not use these as their provider. ( much to the disgust of these groups ). There is too much devision withing the biking community for either one of these groups to be successful.

But you are right

People who know they need help will ask.

and wrong.

People who think they do not need help won't.

[Blackbird]

People who know they need help will ask.

and wrong.

People who think they do not need help won't.

Not quite that simple I'm afraid. You can't categorise people as all the same. In other forms of training, it's called "unconscious incompetence", i.e, you don't know what you don't know - the bottom rung of the ladder.

Sometimes, you need to give people a lift to move them into a headspace where they know that they're falling short. A good example was teaching (a loose description) my wife to drive to the vanishing point in her sports car. Once she'sd done that really well, she was keen to learn other stuff.

[R-Soul]

A lot of accidents involve people filtering, or not being seen.

Some intersections have special sections of cyclists. What about opening up the cyclist only areas to 50cc and under scooters/bikes as well?

That makes sense as they cant go a lot faster than cyclists anyway, and they can hardly pull away faster than cars... so they end up being in front of a bunch of frustrated cagers that they have just schnaaaied at the last traffic light, and who are no wriding up their ass...which seems bloody dangerous to me (not that it stops them from filtering of course)

[jeffs]

Not quite that simple I'm afraid. You can't categorise people as all the same. In other forms of training, it's called "unconscious incompetence", i.e, you don't know what you don't know - the bottom rung of the ladder.

Ok Since you insist, can I use wikipedia to define the categories ?


1. Unconscious Incompetence

The individual neither understands nor knows how to do something, nor recognizes the deficit, nor has a desire to address it.

2. Conscious Incompetence

Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, without yet addressing it.

3. Conscious Competence

The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires a great deal of consciousness or concentration.

4. Unconscious Competence

The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it becomes "second nature" and can be performed easily (often without concentrating too deeply). He or she may or may not be able teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.

I'm sure this covers most people in 8 words

[R-Soul]

Riding a bike is something that you can assess at a level of safety - and that it. After then its completely up to the rider.

I am not claiming that I am the greatest rider (or any of that bullshit), but I happily learn by doing. If I don't want to learn something I wont.

I see no value in telling people they HAVE to learn to ride. Just an excuse for why we are getting ripped off.

_Stew

Let me give you an example - when I learnt to ride in SA, no strict tests were neccessary that really showed you know how to control the bike (like countersteering, or tests to show that you could veer heavily and under control. You basically had to show that you could control the bike at low speed, and the road rules, and thats it. There was no forced instruction or anything.

I only learnt about countersteering AFTER my two accidents. They could both have been avoided with one sentence at an appropriate time: "Do you know how to countersteer?"
I was unconsciously incompetent, but had a burning desire to address it and be good on a bike (who does not want to be good in a bike?) , and would have been a lot more competent and got more involved if I had known that there was such a lot to learn.
The education systems should at least teach you the basics, plus that there is a lot more to learn, both theoretically and practically. Not just clutch, brakes and throttle.

Me, like most teenagers at the time, was given credit for a lot of knowledge that I simpley never had, and could not have known about without some kind of forced education.

[The Stranger:Me]

I'm sure this covers most people in 8 words

No. Most are covered in 2 words - see point number 1.

[StoneY]

No. Most are covered in 2 words - see point number 1.

Yep, my bet too, not KNOWING what your doing wrong

I thought I was a good rider (good enough) untill I started riding with regular KB rides
Learnt more from well meaning fellow KBers than I ever learned from mere experience and the school of hard knocks

Having said that, you need to be WILLING to learn for the knowledge to have effect

[R-Soul]

I was unconsciously incompetent, but had a burning desire to address it and be good on a bike (who does not want to be good in a bike?) , and would have been a lot more competent and got more involved if I had known that there was such a lot to learn.

Let me remind you that this was in the days befor the 'Net, and it was not so easy to find out everything that you can now with the push of a button.

[The Stranger:Me]

Having said that, you need to be WILLING to learn for the knowledge to have effect

Yes. I've mentioned before. We often see those at RRRS come along to "make up numbers" in a group or because a mate or partner "need" to come, but not them. They already know it all.

It takes about half a day for them to realise they don't and to actually start learning. Bit of a waste really, but hey at least they get half value from the course.

[R-Soul]

A woman decided that her lane was not suitable and as she turned right, she came into our lane, my 1st reaction (playing pillion)... was to stick my hand out.. no I am not superwoman, sure wished I was...she only reacted when Geordie hooted at her.

My point.. you can't change the rider, or the driver... no matter how many skills you drive into people... ITS THE PERSON ... that needs changing.

I agree with Winston here... cockyness, hoons, idiots... all impowered by this great course they have done...

or

those that have done no course and just use common sense when riding.

Accidents sadly happen... but seriously take your own course into your own hands, and do not judge... just keep that adrenaline on hold.

Tomorrow I attend a memorial for a 6 year old... be lucky your still around to ride a bike.

This is perfect example of unconsciously incompetent - Do you not realise that being able to turn or swerve quickly in that situation is CRITICAL? and that if, as a rider, it had been hardwired in, your first reaction would have been to swerve to give way by using the bars.

Your suggestion of "just using common sense" just does not cut it. And you seem to have no desire whatsoever to improve your situation? Ridiculous!

Common sense does NOT help you fgure out situations where bike control is counter intuitive - training and instruction does.

[R-Soul]

The California Superbike School is about teaching you to race. You really should already know how to ride - and we wanting to shave extra time off your laps.

The BRONZ Ride Right Ride Safe course would be more appropriate, or things like the AMCC ART days.

Perhaps I have a suggestion. At the moment learners/restricted licence holders can do a "car" advanced driving course to shorten their licence period. They have to do this, because there are no rescognised motorcycle advanced riding courses.

So how about actually helping some organises to create a recognised advanced rider training course that counts towards those wanting to get a full licence?
And how about subsidising the cost of those courses - because motorcyclists are famous for being tight fisted.

I only mentioned the CSBKS as it is teh only one I knew of, and who have a machine (in the USA at least) on which you can learn where teh limits of grip are. But yeah, other classes are cool, whatever..

I did not realise that teh advanced riding course required to cut doen restricted license time was actually a car course. Thats just dumb.

Then your suggestion of an advanced riding course is great -$3mill can set these up all over the country. But making them compulsory would be better. Preferably instead of the basic skill handling course RIGHT at the begginning. Or two levels - one at the beginning and one at the end.

The idea being that beginner riders come out hvaing a great idea of how to control their bike, and what it can do.

[R-Soul]

This is the category I find myself in. I had one bad scare and now I prefer not to provoke such a thing in the near future.

How I wish I had been bought into the sport steering with the bars. My 16 son has, and he had his 650 for a week (6F) and cleaned the strips right off that, without fear whatsoever, and I much rather I thought (or rather believed) like he does, but put simply, I can never go there as my brain doesn't work that way without conscious input, and that conscious input goes out the window when I get a scare. So basically I reckon I'm fucked - doomed to touring forever.

Steve

That is why track days are valuable - not because they teach you to race, but because they teach you to have faith in the engineering.

[R-Soul]

I agree about raising riding standards, doing my advanced in 2003 was a revelation, despite having ridden since the 60's.

However, whilst it's all right and proper to focus on raising rider skills, the outcome would be so much better if he authorities focussed on raising car driver skills too, particularly situational awareness. We could have a very real role in pushing for this at the same time.

Well thats why we want the right to sue back from the ACC!

Nothing wakes a cager faster than an impending kick in the wallet...