Rider training or ATGATT. Which is better?

[wysper]

For me it would be get the gear first.
Make training part of the learner process.

But gear should be considered as important as the bike.

It is all that is keeping you that little bit safer if all goes wrong.

Training is the bit that hopefully stops you getting to the point where all goes wrong

Must get round to doing some training myself some day......

[Swoop]

Next jandal wearing skirt clad sroter that passes me on a crossing gets vapourized

Can we please leave Honda riders' out of this?

[PrincessBandit]

I think a poll is in order!

For me - BOTH. If it HAS to be one or the other I'd say gear.

[ckai]

damn good question, but the more i think about it, if it has to be one, it would be gear. All the training in the world can't protect you from a moron driving a beemer (sorry to all the beemer drivers )

You can be the most careful rider but you still have others on the road. Gear is protection from meatheads (as much as can be protected)

[CookMySock]

It's infeasible to put a newbie on the road with insufficient gear. It permanently sets the precedent that inadequate gear is acceptable when it isn't, and leaves the newbie preoccupied with his safety, when he should be concentrating on his safety. Yep, read that again.

If they are not taught to steer and brake from ab initio, they will never embed it permanently, so without proper training and supervision you might as well decide for them that they will never be an able biker.

Exclude either gear or training, and you cripple them permanently. Wy bother starting?

Steve

[quickbuck]

And the best ever started on scooters

I guess he did since every italian rides one

Seconded. Dirt is the training king.
I also recommend car drivers do this also.
Riding on the dirt teaches you so many things that save your skin - like position and posture. So often I see riders hit gravel and stuff on the road and they freak out. Likewise car drivers who don't know how to manage a car that is sliding out.
Going to teach the misses manual (car) this summer. You can guarantee that will be on the dirt.
.

Agree.
Riders freak out, and cause a worse situation because of "Survival Reactions" - Twist of the Wrist 2 (Keith Code).

Before I got my cage licence dad took me into a wet paddock and we did skids for a few hours until I could hold them and get the car back with exactly the right amount of correction....

Now they have turned this into a sport? And boy racers think they are cool doing it around cul-der-sacs?
Yup, go figure!

It is great training in the appropriate place.

[Edbear]

Okay Frosty, that is a VERY good question.. and real Chicken and Egg stuff.

I would say, "Lessons". If he has the Hat, Jacket (Dress, will be okay for what i suggest), gloves and Boots (Even if they are tramping) then get little Johnny out to a large area of Tarmac and get him some lessons on slow speed handling... On the basics.... RRRS Course springs to mind...
Doesn't have to be California Superbike School (as good as it is).

Then slowly replace all the bits of gear as funds become available. First Jacket, then BOOTS! And then buy loads of gloves for all conditions... Or, is that just me??
Oh, and Pants... hell all I can see is $$$$$.
Then we never proclaim motorcycling to be cheap transport do we...

I always ride with my pants on..

Definitely gear first. Even with training you can potentially fall off, in fact nothing can prevent you from potentially falling off. Sometimes falling off isn't your fault or even avoidable; ask anyone who has been rear ended at a set of traffic lights.

This is true..

For me it would be get the gear first.
Make training part of the learner process.

But gear should be considered as important as the bike.

It is all that is keeping you that little bit safer if all goes wrong.

Training is the bit that hopefully stops you getting to the point where all goes wrong

Must get round to doing some training myself some day......

I think a poll is in order!

For me - BOTH. If it HAS to be one or the other I'd say gear.

Riding apparel should be considered part of the cost of buying a bike. Like seatbelts in a car, it is necessary. If you can't afford the gear, you can't afford the bike.

It's infeasible to put a newbie on the road with insufficient gear. It permanently sets the precedent that inadequate gear is acceptable when it isn't, and leaves the newbie preoccupied with his safety, when he should be concentrating on his safety. Yep, read that again.

If they are not taught to steer and brake from ab initio, they will never embed it permanently, so without proper training and supervision you might as well decide for them that they will never be an able biker.

Exclude either gear or training, and you cripple them permanently. Wy bother starting?

Steve

Yup!

[Renegade]

why didnt you say "get the gear and il sort the training / mentor" surely there is a KBer that would step up, still a good question though

[paddy]

So what would YOU say if put in that situation?

My gut reaction is also to say BOTH. And I firmly believe that is the right answer; however, I think we really need to understand risk to answer this with any degree of analysis. (This is the point where those that know me groan.)

Risk is the product of likelihood and consequence. That is to say:

risk = likelihood x consequence (R=LC).

Normally an appropriate measure is used aggregate consequence and a statistical probability is used to define likelihood. ATGATT should reduce some of the aggregate elements of consequence (injury to self). Rider training should reduce the likelihood of an adverse event occurring.

Hopefully that makes sense. It's late.

[FROSTY:Me]

why didnt you say "get the gear and il sort the training / mentor" surely there is a KBer that would step up, still a good question though

Honest truth--I was put on the spot and made a call.
I thought it was so early in his riding that a professional coach would teach good habits from the get go.

[SPP]

Shit just happens. Gear first IMO

He should at least get pants and a jacket with some form of armour to take the sting out. The prices have never been cheaper.

The price I paid for new cordura jacket and pants 2-3 years ago buys me full leather and and a rainsuit in todays money