slower paced rides

[FEINT]

I think if the ride is stated as "fast paced riders" then newbies shouldn't go. That is one of the reasons why myself and limmy organised the 'newbie ride' where everyone goes SLOW...... big bikes welcome, but preferably go slow.

This is ideal for newbies to ride in a group and take things slow as there isn't a fast group that has gone ahead.

But ultimately, it is up to the rider to decide his / her pace. I see mikey's point and as a newbie, I do try to catch up but it never works so I just do my own thing.

[Sensei]

I myself ride how I feel , some day's I'l just cruz 120k if thats what I want to do . If I need to go for a Blast then I'll ride on my own . Even expert's ride out of they skill level's sometime's

[Biff]

I'm a bit of a cruiser really, except I've never ridden one. It has been known for me to get the inside and push the bike and exceed my capabilities to handle it, and pay for it. But I'm definitely not a balls-out sports bike rider.

I've owned fast bikes before, and still do own one (albeit a bit bent). I enjoy the blistering acceleration and almost poetic way in which you can get around the twisty bits when riding a bike. But I don't race as a rule, and much prefer to sit with the second or third group, taking in the views a bit more and enjoying the reasons I got into biking - the freedom of it all. How you define freedom is up to you. You may find freedom in flying past a NOS’d, Turbo’d SuperMaxFuckwit cage on one wheel, or seeing just how fast you can manage to get through that familiar right hander without - well, you decide the next bit.

Group riding scares me. Honestly it really does. Especially if I’m surrounded by people I don’t know very well, or even worse when I suddenly realise I’m sat behind “Blinky”. If you’re into group riding – you know “Blinky”, because their brake light constantly ‘blinks’ at you. He’s the guy or gal that brakes for no apparent reason. You may be mid corner, then “Blink”. Or just about to enter an easy corner, perfect visibility “Blink”. And they really do brake, it’s not just the lights, oh no, they brake quite hard sometimes. All you’re thinking is, “What do they know I don’t !!?”. To make matters worse they’re riding a powerful bike.- so they drag race you down the straights, then fk up your next corner, and your next.

I prefer to ride with one other rider and machine for company, or if any more -then people I know very well. You trust one another. You instinctively know what they’re going to do next. They wont brake hard into a corner when they can find a smooth pacey line that affords the maximum visibility around the sweeper. They ride swiftly (ghay word?) and safely as opposed to fast and furious. Buddies.

[pritch]

Group riding can be fun but it can also be dangerous.

If you couldn't keep up, it would be seriously stupid trying to catch up.
So give up.


The following from Bike Magazine:

Crash investigator and riding instructor Gary Baldwin on riding in the herd.
"Unfortunately last year saw quite a few prangs involving group rides. In most cases the people didn't know each other- they'd organsied the ride over the Internet. Often they'd never ridden together before..."

"The only bloke riding at a pace he's happy with is the bloke in front. Everybody else is riding at a compromise - faster or slower than they want to. You either take your eye off the ball because you're bored shitless or you feel completely out of your depth but compelled to keep up. Riding a couple of feet from the back wheel of a guy you barely know can't be a good idea. If you must form a group, three is good. Five at a push."

[Skyryder]

Read my sig. The first part. That's my ridin' philosophy.

Skyryder

[Skunk]

Better late than never

I follow that rule. I have plenty in reserve for the unexpected.
I don't care if I'm the slowest - I'm just happy to get there.

[WINJA]

GUYS ON BIG BIKES CAN CRASH WHEN RACING GUYS ON OTHER BIG BIKES , AND GUYS ON 1000S CAN RUN WIDE WHEN TRYING TO RACE 600S TO PIHA ETC, RIDE TO YOUR OWN ABILITY IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO ,IF YOU HAVE TO GO SLOW GO SLOW

[Paul in NZ]

From the net....

While most of us know that it takes about 1 second to recognize and begin to react to a threat ahead of us, it usually takes from 2 to 3 seconds for riders to recognize and begin to react to a change in speed (increase) of the bike in front of them when they are riding in a group.

A couple of seconds doesn't sound like much, I'm sure, but while at 2 seconds a small group of bikes can usually manage rather well, at 3 seconds some serious problems result. This is particularly true if there are more than six bikes in the group.

The following, I hope, will convince those of you that lead group rides to behave with new caution.

At 60 MPH your bike moves 88 feet per second. Assuming that you maintain a 1-second gap between bikes in the group then each is about 88 feet behind the next one. At 70 MPH the gaps would be about 103 feet.

A trivial example first - let's say that the lead bike increases speed from 60 MPH to 70 MPH. It takes about 2 seconds to do so if you are casual about it (using an acceleration rate of 7.5 fps/s) though you could do it in half that time. What happens to all the bikes behind that lead bike?

Most people, I assume, think that each will, in turn, simply follow suit. That is, each will also accelerate modestly at the rate of about 7.5 fps/s (5 MPH/Sec) and, thus, maintain 'the group'. That is not at all what actually happens.

After the first second of modest acceleration by the lead bike the distance between the second bike and the first one has grown from 88 feet to 92 feet and one second later the gap has become 103 feet. By coincidence this is exactly what the new distance between bikes should be while riding at 70 MPH. However, the second bike has not yet even begun to accelerate and is now moving 10 MPH slower than the bike ahead of it.

It follows, of course, that the gap between the bikes will continue to grow until the second bike is also moving at 70 MPH - 2 or 3 seconds later.

That is, if the second bike realizes that the first one is pulling away from him and begins to accelerate his own bike within only 2 seconds then he too will be traveling at 70 MPH within another 2 seconds. If it takes him 3 seconds to recognize a widening gap and react to it then it will take another 2 seconds for his speed to match the bike ahead of him.

In the best case (2 second react/respond time) the gap between the bikes will have grown to 117 feet, and if it took 3 seconds that gap would have grown to 132 feet.

Clearly once the speeds are the same the gaps will remain the same. BUT, since the group prefers to travel with a 'one second' gap between bikes, the second bike MUST GO FASTER than the first one for a brief time in order to 'catch up.'

If we assume that the riders in this group are conservative and individually elect never to travel more than 5 MPH faster than the bike ahead of them as they are closing their gaps then the second bike will continue to accelerate for 1 additional second and attain a speed of 75 MPH while the first one continues at 70 MPH.

In fact, the second bike will have to ride for TWO SECONDS at 75 MPH while the first one rides at 70 MPH in order to close the gap to 106 feet, and then he takes 1 more second decelerating to 70 MPH during which the gap between them reduces itself to the desired 103 feet.

This little example of the dynamics between just two bikes is trivial in consequence and easy to understand. With modest effort it can be seen, however, to be anything but trivial farther back in the pack.

Let's look at the third bike in the group. About 2 seconds after the SECOND bike begins to accelerate the third one follows suit. Three seconds later the gap between the second and third bike has, as expected, become 117 feet. But, because the second bike is traveling at 75 MPH at that time rather than 70 MPH like the first bike, the gap continues to widen and within one more second becomes 128 feet. Clearly the third bike must use more effort to catch up to the second bike than the second bike needed to catch up with the lead bike. Indeed, the third bike will have to accelerate to 75 MPH and will have to maintain that speed for FOUR SECONDS instead of the two required by the second bike in order to close up that gap.

WORSE, the next bike will find that the gap he has to close has grown to 132 feet before it begins to shorten and then ONLY IF HE ACCELERATES TO 80 MPH instead of 75. This, because the third bike is traveling at 75 MPH rather than 70 MPH when the gap has reached 132 feet. The gap would be larger still if bike number four merely accelerates to 75 MPH.

In a group of only six motorcycles, the last one will find the gap between himself and bike number five to grow to 143 feet before it begins to close. He will have to accelerate to 80 MPH, hold that speed for three seconds, drop to 75 MPH for an additional three seconds, and then finally drop to the group speed of 70 MPH in order for all members of the group to end up with a 1-second gap between them.

Further, it will be at least 11 seconds after the lead bike has started to accelerate before the sixth bike does so. Imagine what will happen if during that time the lead bike applies his brakes in anticipation of entering a curve!!!!!!!!!

Though this was a trivial example it demonstrates very well what we have all experienced in the past - the 'rubber band' effect.

Imagine how PROFOUND this effect becomes when the example changes. For example, imagine what happens at the end of a string of 20 bikes rather than only 6. Or what happens if the lead bike, upon exiting a 35 MPH curve, gooses his bike to 60 MPH as fast as it can get there.

There are things that tend to mitigate these problems:

Lead bikes can change speed more gradually.

Lead bikes can announce speed changes over the CB and, thus, reduce reaction times for all.

All bikes in a group can react to changes in speed of bikes that are farther ahead of them than just the one immediately ahead.

The members of a group can simply NOT crank their throttles up to excessive speeds just to keep the group spacing 'correct'.

A good group leader does NOT accelerate within 15 seconds of entering a curve (assuming he has to then slow down before actually entering that curve.)

The '1-second between bikes' rule should be abandoned whenever the group is riding 'twisties' - it makes sense only when traveling in a straight line on open highway.

Never allow a group to become larger than SIX bikes if even one of the riders is inexperienced with group riding. Never larger than EIGHT bikes even if all are familiar with the riding habits of each other.


If you think that the 'rubber band' effect is a problem when accelerating think of what happens during braking

[sels1]

Great, Paul...now my brain hurts. Interesting to see that explained, having observed it often.

[danb]

Im glad this post was started.

As a learner I sure as hell will be slow. Im going on a ride this weekend with a few mates and they have had a bit more experience that I have, I hate to rush things and take everything slowly so it will be interesting to see how it goes. It was suggested that we where to go up to the hot pools up north but I wouldn’t go on the Motorway till I at least have more skill as I have only done 180k on the bike so far, and have a restricted licence so I don’t end up causing more danger by going snails pace on the Motorway. Now we have decided to go out to Kawakawa Bay to my relief, In all I will just have to take it easy on the ride and learn my limits on strange roads out to kawakawa bay from the howick area etc.

It was interesting enough when Affman TristanK and I went out for a stroll around botany when I only had done less then 20k’s on a bike and a few months after I had done the Learners Practical Licence over the North Shore.
Tristan was reasonably quick and Affman well he was Wheeling half the time . (Bad Influence and distraction for the rest of us).

[justsomeguy]

You guys are panicking here.....

I've had guys wait for more that 5 mins until I caught up.... I always ride at speeds I'm comfortable at.....

As I go on more rides I get faster, but I still am among the slower riders out there.

So yes I take it at my own speed. Never had a problem before cos on KB everyone waits.

OH YEAH.... if it's a fast ride and it says "fast ride" on the forum then don't go unless you're a "fast rider". If you have ego problems then that;s your problem.

[gav]

Fuck that, its too dangerous at the back after reading Pauls post, I'm getting to the front, next ride, watch out !!! (err ..... or not as the case may be )

[MSTRS:Me]

Thank you Paps!
You have hit the nail on the head.
I believe that this is particularly relevant when there are new, young, (and I have to say) male riders in the group. Peer pressure (usually in one's own mind!) can be very strong.
I don't think for a minute that anyone on this site actively encourages new riders to try and keep up, in fact quite the opposite, but the temptation is there especially when you are new and trying to learn all you can from more experienced riders.

It is called 'testosterone' & interestingly, females seem to produce it only at Trackdays.

[Wolf]

From the net....

While most of us know that it takes about 1 second to recognize and begin to react to a threat ahead of us, it usually takes from 2 to 3 seconds for riders to recognize and begin to react to a change in speed (increase) of the bike in front of them when they are riding in a group.

...

If you think that the 'rubber band' effect is a problem when accelerating think of what happens during braking

I note this assumes that each person is reacting only to the rider in front of them, and not to riders further up the line as experienced/alert riders would be doing. Personally, I am looking as far ahead as is practicable and respond to anything in my field of view. If I am following a group of vehicles, I am aware of what the vehicle as far to the front as I can see is doing (easier with bikes as they don't block as much as cages do) and I respond accordingly.

I have been on the toy run a number of times and, while I've seen some degree of "rubber band" effect, it is not as extreme as described - presumeably because the riders are responding to changes far ahead of the riders imediately in front of them.

[TonyB]

Upfront it is ALWAYS a race and ALWAYS a challenge and people ALWAYS ride outside there abilities and on KB rides people ALWAYS fall off.
Thats the cold hard reality of it.

ALWAYS fall off?? Not in the south island Quasi
I've never actually done that many group rides, but to me the best way to handle it is for everyone to meet at predetermined stops, and forget the whole notion of riding as a group. Long rides seem to naturally fall into three groups anyway, and I believe that this way everyone gets what they want out of the ride.

Human nature is that some people will try to keep up with faster riders, for reasons of ego/ entertainment/ learning. Done it myself- tried very breifly to keep up with R1AaronKDX after I waved him past once. Just wanted to see if I could do it, and maybe learn something. We were on cold tires, he was pulling away from me everywhere, and I quickly realised I was out of my depth so I slowed down. Just as well, 'cause on the next bend the back end of my bike stepped well out of line...

By the same token if quick riders slow down for the slower guys, some of the slower riders are BOUND to think "F*&k me! I'm keeping up with -----! I'm gonna get past him and show him how it's done!" Some of us just can't be helped