Countersteering: Putting theory to practice, my experience

**varminter** · 10th January 2010, 18:45

I ran over a fairly flat possum once, just to see what it's like. They're solid suckers even when pre-rolled.

**BMWST?** · 10th January 2010, 18:51

any two wheeled vehicle is controlled by countersteering once you get past about 15km hr.

**rok-the-boat** · 10th January 2010, 19:01

Originally Posted by mctshirt

I take it on faith that since there's not a pile of wrecked bikes on every corner countersteering is happening without conscious effort all over the country...

I don't think so - you need to train it. Get a big heavy 1970's or 80's four and try going fast around a corner. Some people just can't go past more than an average speed, they can't get it down. They they discover counter steering. Also, find a safe road or corner and imagine a car suddenly veering towards you. 1 Try leaning and see how fast you get, then, 2 Try quickly - but carefully - steering the wrong way for a moment, and you will change the 'track' of your bike scarily fast. Keep pressure on the opposite bar end. If you want to use it to avoid an accident in a split second, you need to train it a lot because our normal reaction to a sudden even would be to try to lean away.
Just my opinion - try it and see. Then, get off road and try it - now that is fun.

**Headbanger** · 10th January 2010, 20:54

Originally Posted by rok-the-boat

I don't think so - you need to train it. Get a big heavy 1970's or 80's four and try going fast around a corner. Some people just can't go past more than an average speed, they can't get it down. They they discover counter steering.

The point being made and missed is that counter-steering is part of the mechanics of riding a motorcycle around a corner, even at average speeds. Irrelevant to the handling charestics of any motorcycle it needs to be done at average speeds (and even below average speed) in order to successfully negotiate the corner, failing to counter-steer (even at average speeds, whatever that maybe) would result in a huge pile of crashed bikes who have run straight off the very first corner.

Its not something you discover to enable you to corner faster, Though like all skills it can certainly be practiced and aid in increasing performance.

**newbould** · 10th January 2010, 21:11

Originally Posted by BMWST?

any two wheeled vehicle is controlled by countersteering once you get past about 15km hr.

This is the bit I find really interesting about about countersteering. I propose that it doesn't matter how fast you are going coutersteering works to lean the bike over and start the cornering. I base this on the following logic:
look at the countersteering you do to stop cornering ie to lift the bike up again. Leaning left you push on the right bar to get her up again. this is naturally the opposite of what you did to get it there. I interpret this as steering the front wheel under the fall of the bike, thus making it stand up again. So what countersteering does to induce the lean is steer the front end away from the direction of travel letting the bike fall over to where the fron end used to be. Now for the slow speed stuff. we all think when turning in the carpark that we point the front weheel and follow it. BUT what do you do when the bike starts to tip over at very slow speed - you steer into the fall - EXACTLY what you do when lifting up out of a corner. If you do the same to reverse the fall at slow speed, surely you also do the same thing at slow speed to induce a slight (very slight because you are going slowly) fall in the direction you want to turn.

My 2c on countersteering and when it is used (all speeds!)

**Deano** · 14th January 2010, 13:41

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

Yeah but now are talking "luck" - rabbits dodge and dive like a bitch.
Steve

What about possoms, cats and hedgehogs ? The latter 2 I have successfully dodged on occasion. And you don't need to lean a bike "way over" to swerve in your own lane either.

**Headbanger** · 14th January 2010, 15:27

I had a cute as a button kitten throw itself through the front wheel of my bike, Came out the other side as a puff of blood and furr.

Was a bugger to clean off, so I just didn't bother.

Luckily it happened right outside a school as kids were entering, so they go a few life lessons in a short amount of time.

**Drew** · 14th January 2010, 19:36

I get a bit wound up with the use of "counter steering" like it's something new. Leaning on the inside bar steers the wheels out from under the bike, makes you lean. The turning itself is done to balance that lean, so you don't fall right over.

It's NOT counter steering, it's just steering. You cannot practice counter steering, you are practising TURNING. Weather that be dodging stuff, or high speed cornering, it's all the same shit.

Why the fuck do people on here try and over think everything? I don't understand it.

If you want to ride better, get some tuition. Half the mentors on here are likely not the best candidates mind, they mostly over think too. Someone like me is worse, 'cause I'm an idiot on a bike. There are many capable riders around, who couldn't tell you what they do that you dont. But there are more muppets that think they can tell you how to ride unfortunately, when they should not be listened to.

**Conquiztador** · 14th January 2010, 23:44

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

Heres two totally different outcomes, both bike vs deer.

Steve

And the reason for the different outcomes?

First one does not use brake. Second one does.
So should the second one (that crashes) not have had the better outcome?

No! The reason being:

When the second one hit the front brake and then the deer his frontwheel went up in the air when hitting the deer. Then when the frontwheel hit the ground again it was rock solidly stopped. And so as a result the bike does a somersault.

Te lesson: if what jumps out in fron of you is not big, ride over AND DO NOT BRAKE!

Re the countersteering: Yes, it is automatic. But you can push harder and lay the bike lower and get your self outta trouble. Try it on a track. You be surprised!

**CookMySock** · 15th January 2010, 05:42

Originally Posted by Conquiztador

When the second one hit the front brake and then the deer his frontwheel went up in the air when hitting the deer. Then when the frontwheel hit the ground again it was rock solidly stopped. And so as a result the bike does a somersault.

You can tell all that from the fuzzy video? You are doing well. I don't disagree with your logic though. Also one of the bikes had a much lower centre of gravity and was probably heavier.

Originally Posted by Conquiztador

Te lesson: if what jumps out in fron of you is not big, ride over AND DO NOT BRAKE!

Yep, just hunker down and clout it square on. In the end it's up to the individual what they dodge and what they do not.

Originally Posted by Conquiztador

Re the countersteering: Yes, it is automatic. But you can push harder and lay the bike lower and get your self outta trouble. Try it on a track. You be surprised!

THIS is what many people can't do. It's fair to say that any steering on a bike is done with countersteering, but all the science aside, what many people are still unable to do, is tighten a widening line by adding force (not displacement) on the inside bar. While this is a limitation, they are vulnerable. The only way to shock people through and get them used to large angles of lean is to do just that and put them on a trainer frame until they get it, or else it takes years and years of them adding micromillimeter bits to their lean angle as they relax and trust their bike.

Steve

**hayd3n** · 15th January 2010, 05:45

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

Heres two totally different outcomes, both bike vs deer.

Steve

yea both head on luck saved the day

**sinfull** · 15th January 2010, 07:02

I don't countersteer ! I bond with my steed and just think turn left or turn right or dodge this wabbit !

You only have to ride with someone, who for years rode with flat wide bars (talkin Harley here) and rode very well in the windies, considering the bike !
But talk to the guy about countersteering and ya get a dumb look, he couldn't comprehend the science of it !
Take away his flat wide bars and give him a set of semi apehangers (stupid looking things) and he all of a sudden slowed down heaps in the same windies, even though he still leans the same ! He lost that countersteering (or the ease of it) without even realising he's subconciously doing it !
He's suddenly come to terms with the science of it and the ape hangers are going !

**terbang** · 15th January 2010, 07:12

We all countersteer, except in carparks. Most of us don't realise if for a while. But its the way they turn. Its all about gyroscopic precession...

**Headbanger** · 15th January 2010, 08:39

Originally Posted by sinfull

I don't countersteer ! I bond with my steed and just think turn left or turn right or dodge this wabbit !

You only have to ride with someone, who for years rode with flat wide bars (talkin Harley here) and rode very well in the windies, considering the bike !
But talk to the guy about countersteering and ya get a dumb look, he couldn't comprehend the science of it !
Take away his flat wide bars and give him a set of semi apehangers (stupid looking things) and he all of a sudden slowed down heaps in the same windies, even though he still leans the same ! He lost that countersteering (or the ease of it) without even realising he's subconciously doing it !
He's suddenly come to terms with the science of it and the ape hangers are going !

Meh, The counter-steering is exactly the same with apes, More likely the rider in your scenario lost some confidence due to the changed geometry and the different inputs required,Probally just needed a bit of riding to get the hang of it, or maybe they sucked.

When I had a big set of smell-my-armpits apes fitted I had no problems hanging with everyone else, and they were mad fuckers.