NZ Motorcycle Safety Council

[Genestho]

Too much good stuff to quote, but basically you are shovelling it uphill if you think riders (who need it) are going to turn up voluntarily for training.

The bottom line is, the method by which riders get their licenses has to change. With no initial training and no support, a year down the track all their bad habits are fully ingrained and you won't recover them without ten times the amount of work.

Adopt the French motorcycle training system. No person is allowed on the road on a big road bike without full and complete training and substantial evaluation. It's not cheap, but thats too bad. Crashing isn't cheap either, but everyone accepts that as normal, so they can get over it.

Until the government decides to actually do something about the problem nothing will change. They make too much money from the licensing system right now to consider changing it, and they are putting the price up as we speak, so realistically why do you think they will do something about the "problem" when they make so much cash from it? They are about perpetuating their growth industries and mliking them for cash, just like all their other businesses (police, ACC, etc.) They don't care about people until said people bite them. So bite them.

Flinging small change at "safety" organisations gives the image of "doing something about it", but thats about all, and gives the government breathing space to further ignore the real issue.

Steve

I'm going to disagree. You've got to be crazy if you think Govt wants to continue the way it's gone, there is so much under microscope right now - even dead people cost 'you' money.
And I can tell you for a fact that ACC want the Motorycling communities input. The community owes it to ourselves, we've buried too many people to not stand up and be responsible for our own safety, pull our sleeves up - get our hands dirty doing it. And demand what is needed.

They didn't seem too keen on endorsing trackdays, but are definately behind training....Good on yer Shrub

[shrub]

Exactly.

We need to lose the attitude that everything else is to blame other than ourselves.

Whether the car driver sees us or not, it's up to us to see the car driver.

I don't know and can't change a thing about what's happening in the head of other road users, therefore I can't predict or change what they do, but I can change what I do. I can cover my brakes and ease the throttle when I see a car coming up to a giveway sign, I can make sure i set my line well to the left of the centre in right hand corners, I can ride where other road users can see me and I can practise my braking so that I stop safely in the shortest distance. All of these things are skills that can be learnt and all of these skills can save a life. That's why training is so important, but first bikers need to accept that our safety is not determined by what other people do; our safety is determined by what we do.

[shrub]

Ya know, the thing is no one reason caused Ewans death, what if he had been paying attention, what if the bike he was following had a brake light, what if he reacted diferently, lots of whet if's.
A road cant be blamed for an acco, sinage or lack of can, faulty or lack of safty gear/bike, lack of training etc.. hell its a tricky one.

Hey this is a great idea, I suport it, but it also starts with the rider not the GVT.
Beter training for licencing
beter road sinage
You can increase a riders awearness, but they have to want to improve, but theres sweet fuck all you can do for the avarage cage driver, this is a massive mission ya on Shrub, we should talk.

There are few crashes where there are one or even two set causes, and from talking to crash investigators and insurance people there are always a cluster of causes. In Ewan's case there were 6 that I can think of - inattention, the other bike's brake light, the road, unfamiliarity with his bike, not braking effectively and not having an escape route. 4 of those were inside his realm of control.

[T.W.R]

Exactly.

We need to lose the attitude that everything else is to blame other than ourselves.

Whether the car driver sees us or not, it's up to us to see the car driver.

We're the masters of our own destiny and no matter what is done nothing is going to change that, it's the nature of the beast that we're the way we are; implimenting the decision is our individual choice alone

[shrub]

We're the masters of our own destiny and no matter what is done nothing is going to change that, it's the nature of the beast that we're the way we are; implimenting the decision is our individual choice alone

I agree, and that's why imposing rules from on high will achieve little, however what can be changed are attitudes and approaches to motorcycling. While we are a rebellious and free spirited bunch (which is why we ride bikes, not drive SUVs), none of us like accidents. It is possible to change attitudes and opinions - it's called marketing, and that's my game, so we need to find a way to effectively market riding safely.

[mashman]

It is my opinion that there is a need for track based training so people can practise cornering, braking and evasion in a safe environment, but my experience of track based training days is that it gets too easy to turn it into just another track day. Not that that is all bad...

Fair enough, but the idea would be to have cars as well as motorbikes both training at the same time, so there's still a chance to crash/consider your riding in amongst real traffic... Have 4 motorcycles to a trainer, all wired up, run them ragged for a few hours, learn what fatigue feels like etc... the list is endless. But it needs to be compulsory. Fuck about, you lose your license... then at the end of the day/s lettem go out and ride around the track if they want... dunno how to make it work, notm thought it through enough... but the alternative if joe bloggs unskilled and learning on the road...

[T.W.R]

I agree, and that's why imposing rules from on high will achieve little, however what can be changed are attitudes and approaches to motorcycling. While we are a rebellious and free spirited bunch (which is why we ride bikes, not drive SUVs), none of us like accidents. It is possible to change attitudes and opinions - it's called marketing, and that's my game, so we need to find a way to effectively market riding safely.

True to a point. It's nothing to do with being rebellious or not it's a the point where a vital choice is to be made it a split second decission which is instinctiual; arming the masses with as much knowledge & awareness as possible will only help those that want to be helped and quite a few instances the hard drilled lesson on what to do can be the wrong choice.
You can't place a motorcyclist in to a specific group, a lot of us use forms of transport that as "motorcyclists" abhor so we're definately not a specific demographic

[shrub]

The problem is getting people to accept they need help. I am told a lot of cruiser riders don't do training because "I ride a cruiser, so I am slow and sedate and don't need any extra skills" and a lot of bike riders think they know it already. I remember following one of my former employers (this is a guy who owns a bike shop and races), and cringing. He rode right on the centreline on right handers with his head and body right bang in the opposing lane, but nobody could tell him how to ride because he was an expert.

I realise that ultimately we will only be able to "help those who want to be helped", but if that is only 20% of all bikers, that is a lot of people and 20% of last year's fatalities is 10 people - let's say we can save 20% of the willing 20% - that's 2 lives and around 60 serious injuries. Worth the effort I feel.

[shrub]

Fair enough, but the idea would be to have cars as well as motorbikes both training at the same time, so there's still a chance to crash/consider your riding in amongst real traffic... Have 4 motorcycles to a trainer, all wired up, run them ragged for a few hours, learn what fatigue feels like etc... the list is endless. But it needs to be compulsory. Fuck about, you lose your license... then at the end of the day/s lettem go out and ride around the track if they want... dunno how to make it work, notm thought it through enough... but the alternative if joe bloggs unskilled and learning on the road...

Interesting thought - combine cars and bikes. Probably too risky, but one of the challenges trainers face is being able to simulate traffic conditions.

[Bytor]

Great idea and good luck with it.
Why not try and get the importers involved not just the dealers, after all it's in their best interests, as it is the dealers, to have motorcycling portrayed as a feasible, rewarding and safe mode of transport within NZ for future generations of transport consumers. The importers would have more capitol to invest than the dealers or maybe they don't give a f**k.

[mashman]

Interesting thought - combine cars and bikes. Probably too risky, but one of the challenges trainers face is being able to simulate traffic conditions.

That's just an idea. The risks are going to be just as great, if maybe somewhat less, than being out on the road. It's not just the inexperienced that are bad drivers after all... so why not combine them both and give each other a taste of what's on the road and how traffic and your vehicle reacts at speed.

True, it'll cost a shitload of money, but there would also be business opportunities to offset that at the same time. It just needs a lot of planning, coordination and unfortunately money! It's not a silver bullet, but who knows, it may save a quite few lives/injuries every year. Say it'll take $10 mill to setup (may well be lots more, but...), ACC said the average motor vehicle accident costs approximately $20 thou... so as long as you have saved 100 injuries a year over a period of 5 years, it'll have paid for itself (then maybe the training could be free and compulsory). And that's not taking into account track days, business rent (balconied businesses overlooking the track), perhaps car dealers, bike dealers, a nightclub, businesses dotted around the edges (could sell their balcony's for when the MotoGP arrives, AF1, Formula 1)... could be a win win if done properly... then again, i may well have banged my head once too many times... People just think too narrow mindedly... bit of time, bit of patience, set of balls... could make a huge difference!

[shrub]

Great idea and good luck with it.
Why not try and get the importers involved not just the dealers, after all it's in their best interests, as it is the dealers, to have motorcycling portrayed as a feasible, rewarding and safe mode of transport within NZ for future generations of transport consumers. The importers would have more capitol to invest than the dealers or maybe they don't give a f**k.

Thanks, and I agree, that's a good strategy. If we can show that motorcycling isn't as dangerous as it's painted it might encourage more people to take it up which means more bikes on the road which means more money... It is my belief that in a year or so we'll get told that levies need to rise again because I reckon they're planning to sell ACC, and part of getting the best price is getting rid of "undesirable" clients, and they will want to essentially tax us off the road. If we can show that our accident rate is dropping because we're approaching rider safety differently, we will have a greater chance of keeping the levies as they will be.

So it's in the industry's best interests to promote safety.

[dangerous]

There are few crashes where there are one or even two set causes, and from talking to crash investigators and insurance people there are always a cluster of causes. In Ewan's case there were 6 that I can think of - inattention, the other bike's brake light, the road, unfamiliarity with his bike, not braking effectively and not having an escape route. 4 of those were inside his realm of control.

He had an escape route but failed to use it (asumption) the road has NOTHING to do with it (its very good condition and sinage and view is clear (would like to see beter sinage, like bigger and brighter) maybe add following to close?

TWR
DB
KM
TGW
all good posts, and with input like this we can acheive something. I also agree with compulsary driving and riding lessons, none of this dad teaching little jonny his bad habbits.

Quasi, giz a link to this shit clothing you mention

[shrub]

A good starting point is the license test. Mike Flowers showed me the test for a basic handling skills certificate, and the thought that people could complete that and be deemed capable of riding a sports 250 (or any bike for that matter) in traffic worries me. It's no surprise that in the Crash Accident Statistics database, the mode (the most common) capacity is 250. (now tell me Dr. Smith, how does that equate with pinging over 600cc?)