Aviation fuel?

**motorbyclist** · 15th February 2010, 10:49

I hear the gas turbine used to power the current american tanks are designed to run on almost anything.....

**GKTaylor** · 15th February 2010, 11:07

Don't get confused between Avgas (Aviation Fuel) and Race Gas these are different fuels, most info points at Avgas being no good for Catalytic converters and O2 sensors, however there are leaded and unleaded race fuels, one would have to contact the suppliers to confirm, in any case I found this Q&A

Motor Trend: If higher octane fuel is used, will an engine make more power?
Rockett Brand: The answer is maybe. If your engine pings/detonates, you will benefit from a higher octane. In some cases, even when detonation is not present, higher octane fuel can improve power because of its special fuel chemistry that promotes improved combustion efficiency. Improved combustion efficiency means that more of the gasoline is being burned in the combustion chamber thus making more horsepower; less is being burned/expelled in the exhaust.

**Expert** · 15th February 2010, 11:56

Who's gonna start on about the cetane rating of ci fuels?
I used to find my diesel car would run so quietly on straight vegetable oil i used to buy from tesco in the uk, i got some funny looks pouring 80 litres of crisp and dry in the fuel tank in the car park though. half the price of diesel over there.

**Flip** · 15th February 2010, 14:04

Originally Posted by GKTaylor

Don't get confused between Avgas (Aviation Fuel) and Race Gas these are different fuels, most info points at Avgas being no good for Catalytic converters and O2 sensors, however there are leaded and unleaded race fuels, one would have to contact the suppliers to confirm, in any case I found this Q&A

Motor Trend: If higher octane fuel is used, will an engine make more power?
Rockett Brand: The answer is maybe. If your engine pings/detonates, you will benefit from a higher octane. In some cases, even when detonation is not present, higher octane fuel can improve power because of its special fuel chemistry that promotes improved combustion efficiency. Improved combustion efficiency means that more of the gasoline is being burned in the combustion chamber thus making more horsepower; less is being burned/expelled in the exhaust.

Hate to bring bad news but Av-gas and race gas is exactly the same fuel. It's packaged from exactly the same tank.
Methanol race fuel is diferent.

**motorbyclist** · 15th February 2010, 16:21

Originally Posted by Flip

Hate to bring bad news but Av-gas and race gas is exactly the same fuel. It's packaged from exactly the same tank.

where'd you hear that from? It would put into question the whole "plane motors only do 2500rpm" reasoning behind not running avgas....

**gatch** · 15th February 2010, 16:39

Originally Posted by Expert

Jet engines and diesel engines will run on almost anything that has a calorific value, the swedish got a diesel engine to run on cream just because of the amount of fat in it.
The main difference between kero and diesel, as far as running in your truck is concerned, is that kero has a much lower lubricating ability and will wreck the fuel pump. If you add engine oil to kero, say 20:1, you virtually get diesel and the oil lubricates the pump.
Running a jet engine on diesel means everything will get lagged in soot, but it won't harm it.

Maybe you are mistaken there mate. I was under the impression that diesel burns considerably hotter than kerosene, and the increased heat shortens the service life of a turbine engine considerably..

Otherwise I wouldn't know about their lubricity characteristics.

**cs363** · 15th February 2010, 17:28

Originally Posted by Flip

Hate to bring bad news but Av-gas and race gas is exactly the same fuel. It's packaged from exactly the same tank.
Methanol race fuel is diferent.

Oh? So Elf, VP, Shell etc., are lying about their products?

http://www.elfracing.com/lub/lubroot...055F1BC&LG=EN&
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/
http://www.shell.com/home/content2/s...sa_150702.html
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?...tentId=7045672
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_inte...tans_Power.pdf
http://sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/

**quickbuck** · 15th February 2010, 17:29

Originally Posted by gatch

Maybe you are mistaken there mate. I was under the impression that diesel burns considerably hotter than kerosene, and the increased heat shortens the service life of a turbine engine considerably..

Otherwise I wouldn't know about their lubricity characteristics.

I think it was a case of a little more heat... BUT the (Wasp) engine will limit (Govern) itself on that... The main thing is the Thermocouples, and Turbine Nozzles get covered in soot at a rough guess.... The Turbine Nozzles are NOT the same as the Fuel Nozzles... Although, these will get a very hard time too....

Kero may well have less Lubrication properties... But I would Haz-it-a guess that these lube properties are present in AvTur....

Good to see we are getting off topic again... Close to getting back to AvGas again

**gatch** · 15th February 2010, 17:32

Originally Posted by quickbuck

I think it was a case of a little more heat... BUT the (Wasp) engine will limit (Govern) itself on that... The main thing is the Thermocouples, and Turbine Nozzles get covered in soot at a rough guess.... The Turbine Nozzles are NOT the same as the Fuel Nozzles... Although, these will get a very hard time too....

Kero may well have less Lubrication properties... But I would Haz-it-a guess that these lube properties are present in AvTur....

Good to see we are getting off topic again... Close to getting back to AvGas again

1 step at a time eh

**Pussy** · 15th February 2010, 18:13

I've got reasonable access to "green river".
And I've got no bloody interest whatsoever to use it as road fuel. I reckon it's crap for that use.... unless of course your motorcycle has a Lycoming IO-720 in it.....

**Flip** · 15th February 2010, 18:14

Originally Posted by cs363

Oh? So Elf, VP, Shell etc., are lying about their products?

http://www.elfracing.com/lub/lubroot...055F1BC&LG=EN&
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/
http://www.shell.com/home/content2/s...sa_150702.html
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?...tentId=7045672
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_inte...tans_Power.pdf
http://sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/

These are not the fuel that is being sold here. elfracing is a french web page, VP is an american, The shell is American, the BP is afrcian. The 2nd BP is australian. The sunoco ia another american company.

The 100 octane race fuel that is sold in NZ is Avgas. Actually its out of spec Avgas. If you buy a tin of it from them its Avgas, If you buy it at the track its Avgas, if you buy it at a service station near a track its Avgas. I used to work for them so trust me its Avgas.

**cs363** · 15th February 2010, 18:17

Well perhaps you should specify 'sold in NZ' if you're going to make such a generalisation in future as it clouds the argument. Besides, as international companies they have worldwide websites - not all relevant information is listed on local websites.
As it happens Elf is sold in NZ, so is VP - admittedly it's not available at petrol stations, but then that hasn't been specified either.
I presume the race gas you are talking about is Shell, as I've heard that comment before about their race gas?

Edit: For those interested

VP Racing fuels available from:
Pioneer Auto Parts
Penrose, Auckland
New Zealand

T: 64-9-634-2123
F: 64-9-636-7978
E: sales@pap.co.nz

There was also an outfit called McPhail Group who were selling it on Trade Me, not sure of their connection to VP - probably a parallel importer?

Elf racing fuels available from:

Elf Lubricants NZ Ltd in Auckland, Tauranga and Christchurch (Check Yellow Pages for contact details)

It wouldn't surprise me at all if other brands of racing fuel are available through smaller outlets, but Elf & VP are the 'big boys' in the specialised race fuel market.
I'm sure Shell probably sell the most volume, but as far as I am aware they only sell leaded race gas under the brand name Shell Racing Fuel 100 Plus (specs here:
http://www.shell.com/static/nz-en/do...us_2006_09.pdf)
The above may well be out of spec avgas as Flip states, as this is certainly a persistent rumour. Perhaps if someone knows someone at Shell they could clarify?

**cruza** · 15th February 2010, 19:26

Originally Posted by motorbyclist

where'd you hear that from? It would put into question the whole "plane motors only do 2500rpm" reasoning behind not running avgas....

He's right , just rebranded for pumps outside of airfield sites .....out of spec avgas....... If it was out of spec it wouldn't leave the tank farm, as most bulk racegas deliverys are done from a dedicated bulk avgas tanker anyway. The few that aren't load ex the same gantry/bulk tank .
whether its sold under shell. bp or mobil , its out of the same bulk tank that is on line at that time , for the south island all ex christchurch .

There are other "race fuels " of course like elf etc which are available in drums.

**Expert** · 15th February 2010, 21:01

[QUOTE=gatch;1129650141]Maybe you are mistaken there mate. I was under the impression that diesel burns considerably hotter than kerosene, and the increased heat shortens the service life of a turbine engine considerably..

You're right, kerosene burns colder in free air, it's higher up the refractory scale than diesel, but there's bugger all in it, about 40 degrees c.
But free air is not what's happening inside a jet engine.
Shortened service life is bound to come up running an engine on anything other than the manufacturer recommends, but probably something to do with all the additives in pump diesel not being suitable for jet engines and the soot issue.
I could be wrong, but i'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong when i don't know all the facts.........