F3 regs

**nzkr1** · 15th February 2010, 09:16

Originally Posted by lostinflyz

how many 450's do you guys have up there??? good effort if you can beat 450's.

we have a two or three two strokes inthe SI than can hold the faster club 400 and mid pack 650 guys but they aint competitive. You are right about 125's and f3 though.

but the thought that you have to have a 650 to be at the front is silly. of the fastest 5 or so f3 guys in nz only 2 are on Sv's.

Not sure how many 450s there are as they don’t usually advertise the fact in the program.
Last year in the Vic club winter series I finished 3rd in the post classic juniors which is basicly made up of ZXR400s and the like. In F3 I finished 5th overall and I missed a round too. Not to bad for an old 250 proddy that cost two grand.
What I meant re the 650s is that you could purchase one and with minimal modifications you could be somewhere near the front of the F3 field. The Vic Club run the pro twins and F3 bikes together and the majority of the pro twins finish near the pointy end, even though they are scored separately.

**phoenixgtr** · 15th February 2010, 11:30

Ok so I'm very much a newbie to the racing scene, but I still have an opinion. I can't understand why the 250's are so restricted in F3 when the 450's and 650's are free to almost do whatever they want. Why can't they take a leaf out of the bucket's book and only limit the 250 2 strokes to "non competition engines" but allow freedom with the rest of the bike. That would allow you to build a 250 that could be at the pointy end of F3, but wouldn't dominate like a 250GP bike.

As for the 250GP bikes I've seen some of the 125GP riders give the F3 class a hurry up, so I can only imagine what a 250GP bike would do.

For me I think racing a 250 2 stroke would be wicked and that's where I'd like to go, but with the current restrictions it's not really worth it. I may as well get a boring SV. At least then I can tinker with it a bit.

**neil_cb125t** · 15th February 2010, 11:43

Originally Posted by nzkr1

Not sure how many 450s there are as they don’t usually advertise the fact in the program.
Last year in the Vic club winter series I finished 3rd in the post classic juniors which is basicly made up of ZXR400s and the like. In F3 I finished 5th overall and I missed a round too. Not to bad for an old 250 proddy that cost two grand.
What I meant re the 650s is that you could purchase one and with minimal modifications you could be somewhere near the front of the F3 field. The Vic Club run the pro twins and F3 bikes together and the majority of the pro twins finish near the pointy end, even though they are scored separately.

Last year number 1 and 2 in posties were 444s, followed by george on his little KR. Also the strikingly hansome man that won Posties also won f3 ( beating Svs - yes Glen was absent )...... someone must wanna sponsor that guy!!

Not many people are keen on the 444 kit option becuase they think its too hard to do or unreliable or something. The SV is easier to ride fast out of the box - because its a 650cc!!! I spent less than a setup pro twin bike on mine in the last 3 years - which includes everything ive done to it....rebuilding it from ground up and flats slides and dyno and ohlins and blah blah blah so its cheaper and faster...... lapping faster than Geoff both at manny long track.. on my post clasic machine - that i built - not Mr Suzulki.

F3 is the only Formula class we have - if you want to create something or improve and develope a machine then that is the class to be in. 600 you basically cant touch and then you have to sell it every 2nd year. Some poeple aka ME can't afford to finance TTxing a new 600 every 2nd year..

a 400 cup is where there needs to be a class which i have said before.. standard 400's ( much like the aussie version of formula 400 ) and 250 proddy's. CBR ZXR VFR RGV RS TZR NSRs - simply and awesome sellection and doable on a budget of 5-8k

if you don't want to ride an old bike and keep them going then by a 600 or 1000... but don't complain you cant afford to do that - you wanna be lazy and not fix a bike then bring the money sonny!!

**nzkr1** · 15th February 2010, 12:21

Originally Posted by phoenixgtr

Ok so I'm very much a newbie to the racing scene, but I still have an opinion. I can't understand why the 250's are so restricted in F3 when the 450's and 650's are free to almost do whatever they want. Why can't they take a leaf out of the bucket's book and only limit the 250 2 strokes to "non competition engines" but allow freedom with the rest of the bike. That would allow you to build a 250 that could be at the pointy end of F3, but wouldn't dominate like a 250GP bike.

As for the 250GP bikes I've seen some of the 125GP riders give the F3 class a hurry up, so I can only imagine what a 250GP bike would do.

For me I think racing a 250 2 stroke would be wicked and that's where I'd like to go, but with the current restrictions it's not really worth it. I may as well get a boring SV. At least then I can tinker with it a bit.

I know there are some restrictions but what do you plan on doing to your 250?

**lostinflyz** · 15th February 2010, 17:29

Originally Posted by neil_cb125t

Last year number 1 and 2 in posties were 444s, followed by george on his little KR. Also the strikingly hansome man that won Posties also won f3 ( beating Svs - yes Glen was absent )...... someone must wanna sponsor that guy!!

Not many people are keen on the 444 kit option becuase they think its too hard to do or unreliable or something. The SV is easier to ride fast out of the box - because its a 650cc!!! I spent less than a setup pro twin bike on mine in the last 3 years - which includes everything ive done to it....rebuilding it from ground up and flats slides and dyno and ohlins and blah blah blah so its cheaper and faster...... lapping faster than Geoff both at manny long track.. on my post clasic machine - that i built - not Mr Suzulki.

F3 is the only Formula class we have - if you want to create something or improve and develope a machine then that is the class to be in. 600 you basically cant touch and then you have to sell it every 2nd year. Some poeple aka ME can't afford to finance TTxing a new 600 every 2nd year..

a 400 cup is where there needs to be a class which i have said before.. standard 400's ( much like the aussie version of formula 400 ) and 250 proddy's. CBR ZXR VFR RGV RS TZR NSRs - simply and awesome sellection and doable on a budget of 5-8k

if you don't want to ride an old bike and keep them going then by a 600 or 1000... but don't complain you cant afford to do that - you wanna be lazy and not fix a bike then bring the money sonny!!

interestingly its a few hundred dollars difference between refreshing and over-boring my motor. i mean honda wants 310 bucks for a ring set (best price i can find) and i have quotes here for 428 pistons at 800 bucks (inc rings and pins). If you were going to have a 400 cup i would doubt itd be a whole lot cheaper than f3, when it came down to it. but it would be awesome with a capitol O. ok so theres boring costs and a few other bits but in terms of the rebuild there aint too much cost difference.

Of course this fails to mention all the other money you gonna end up dropping on it, whether its 400 or 450 (or 650 or a 450 3 cylinder)

**neil_cb125t** · 15th February 2010, 18:06

Originally Posted by lostinflyz

interestingly its a few hundred dollars difference between refreshing and over-boring my motor. i mean honda wants 310 bucks for a ring set (best price i can find) and i have quotes here for 428 pistons at 800 bucks (inc rings and pins). If you were going to have a 400 cup i would doubt itd be a whole lot cheaper than f3, when it came down to it. but it would be awesome with a capitol O. ok so theres boring costs and a few other bits but in terms of the rebuild there aint too much cost difference.

Of course this fails to mention all the other money you gonna end up dropping on it, whether its 400 or 450 (or 650 or a 450 3 cylinder)

The Aussie formula 400 is very restritive - No ohlins shocks, no aftermarker rims, motor has to have starting system, and airbox and filters, nothing more than .5mm oversized slugs. They actually dyno the top 5 bikes ( ZXRs no more than 72 hp at the tyre ) Basically you can rebuild it and thats it...

remember as you up your power the standard shocks wont keep up so its good to keep the power low in that style of class...

**nzkr1** · 15th February 2010, 19:11

Originally Posted by neil_cb125t

The Aussie formula 400 is very restritive - No ohlins shocks, no aftermarker rims, motor has to have starting system, and airbox and filters, nothing more than .5mm oversized slugs. They actually dyno the top 5 bikes ( ZXRs no more than 72 hp at the tyre ) Basically you can rebuild it and thats it...

remember as you up your power the standard shocks wont keep up so its good to keep the power low in that style of class...

WOW 72 rear wheel horse power, Id be happy with that on my 250! Do they let 250 production strokers in the formula 400?

**scracha** · 16th February 2010, 20:41

Originally Posted by phoenixgtr

Ok so I'm very much a newbie to the racing scene, but I still have an opinion. I can't understand why the 250's are so restricted in F3 when the 450's and 650's are free to almost do whatever they want

Put simply, because ridden properly, the 250's waste stock 400's and 650 twins as they're so light, have comparable power and handle so much better. There's no need to modify them.

[quote=neil_cb125t
if you don't want to ride an old bike and keep them going then by a 600 or 1000... but don't complain you cant afford to do that - you wanna be lazy and not fix a bike then bring the money sonny!!
[/quote]
You're getting posties and F3 mixed up Neil. As you know I'm totally with yer on the Aussie Formula 400 being implemented here, with the restrictions in place it's the closest to the old "proddy 250" days and as such is the most popular class over there.....
BUT
It should be part of a pre 98 posties class or summit . I honestly don't think F3 should still be based around such old bikes. F3 should be about innovation and suchlike...but not on 20 year old bikes. That's why the 450 triples should be applauded.

I don't particularly want to ride a REALLY old bike, and I don't particularly want to sell my arm and competitively race a 600 or 1000. There must be some middle ground?

Question for old Jedi masters like Billy and Roadracingfart :- What would you do with F3 to bring in more interest and fucking loads of young riders just like the good old "proddy 250 days".

Notice the Aussie PCRA are moving up to Pre 95. Aren't VMCC running a pre 95 class this year?

**JayRacer37** · 16th February 2010, 22:21

Originally Posted by scracha

I don't particularly want to ride a REALLY old bike, and I don't particularly want to sell my arm and competitively race a 600 or 1000. There must be some middle ground?

Ummm....Pro Twins?

Surely with a great middle ground class like 650PT just above 125 and below 600's, F3 goes back to being open slather based on capacity limits and non racing based motors? That way anyone who wants to can go and dick around with thier bike, and those that want a cheap class with low mantanence bikes and low overheads go 650PT?

As for people saying that there needs to be ANOTHER filler class because the 125 to 600 jump is to big, thats bollocks. There all motor bikes. If your worried it would be too different, do a season in pro twin to get a handle on 4 stroke caricteristcs and bigger/heavier bikes. Other than that the trasfer 125 t0 600 is easy, you just need a level head - look at how Cam Jones is getting on, he will have it nailed in the near future I predict. In the last couple of years look at - Adam Chambers, Sam Smith, Nick Cole, Karl Morgan, Me, Dom Jones - all of these people are around my age and made the jump in the last 5 years easy enough. It really shows there doesn't need to be another class except as clubmans/tinkerers (F3) and low budget modern and rider focussed (Pro Twin).

**quickbuck** · 17th February 2010, 17:05

Originally Posted by JayRacer37

As for people saying that there needs to be ANOTHER filler class because the 125 to 600 jump is to big, thats bollocks.

I guess you are right Jay.... After all it is like... Well, Riding a bike.

I mean, once you put all the riding techniques in place, the principles are all the same.... Okay, you can "Get away" with some things on one class that you will not on another (and that goes both ways), but yeah, I see exactly where you are coming from......
And not to make a certain person on here have to buy a bigger helmet, I would say if he could afford it, he would do fine in the top class too..... Okay, no Stroud/ Shirrifs/ Frost/ Fitzgerald etc (in no particular order, and please don't feel upset if I missed a name or two

) yet, BUT you know.... Could be....

**Ivan** · 17th February 2010, 17:34

I agree I did the 125 to pro twin to 600 step and I thought it was a good way as the 125 is very peaky and nimble and the SV is very torquey but doesnt bite to bad were as the 600 is very bity but I learnt how to ride from the progression from pro twin

**Billy** · 17th February 2010, 17:47

Originally Posted by scracha

Question for old Jedi masters like Billy and Roadracingfart :- What would you do with F3 to bring in more interest and fucking loads of young riders just like the good old "proddy 250 days".

Notice the Aussie PCRA are moving up to Pre 95. Aren't VMCC running a pre 95 class this year?

Old???Dont you mean experienced lol

I dont believe F3 at club level needs any tinkering with,Every club day I have been too has been mostly oversubscribed for that class.Its at Nationaql level that it needs improvement,Having said that I dont beleive its a machinery problem there either,Rather its a bang for buck/rider attitude issue,One thing that I have identified that differs from the old days (read 80s and early 90s) is the huge amount of equipment each competitor needs just to stay on a level playing feild.Back then I dont remember anyone trapsing around the South Island with a generator/Tyre warmers/compressor,Not only does it add to the budget,It also limits how many people can travel in one vehicle which in turn means most people today travel solo obviously reducing the option to share costs and make it affordable.Add to that additional money spent on suspension that wasnt available back then and youve added around $10,000.00 to a season.Apart from that little has changed in relation to running a 250 proddy bike as opposed too a 600 on todays market,A new RGV was $13200.00 retail back then and we were still using a pair of tyres a meeting.

Riders attitudes have changed since then as well,Some of which I understand,I mean who wants to travel all the way from Auckland too Invercargill with their Stock ZXR/CBR/VFR400 only too be stopped from racing because you couldnt qualify within 115% of a $60k rocket.I believe the way forward for F3 is through the initiatives of people like Ozzy with his 450 triple,Thats what the class is about and how it should remain,Starting a class for 20 year old 400s is most definitely NOT going to help.

To sum up,I dont have the silver bullet too fix roadracing in this country and I dont want too have it!I retired from serious competition in 92 and went on too run the winter series and a number of National points rounds,Have been a roadrace convener/Clerk of the course/MNZ steward and banged my head against the wall that is MNZ until Id had enough.

Youve got a roadrace commission now,All those guys are very experienced racers to the extent they all hold National titles,You know who they are ,Theyre very accessable and open too reasonable ideas,Ready and willing to help,If roadracing doesnt move forward under these guys,Then dont point the finger at them,Thats who you should be running your ideas by.

**roadracingoldfart** · 17th February 2010, 20:16

Originally Posted by Billy

Youve got a roadrace commission now,All those guys are very experienced racers to the extent they all hold National titles,You know who they are ,Theyre very accessable and open too reasonable ideas,Ready and willing to help,If roadracing doesnt move forward under these guys,Then dont point the finger at them,Thats who you should be running your ideas by.

And i cant wait to see Ian again to shake his hand and tell him to change the rules to suit me , hes my new best old friend lol.