Mining and Labour trying to fuck it

[Winston001]

The returns of the proposed "keyhole-surgery" type mining are so small there's really no point. Australia gets the big returns because they go for digging up the country and shipping it to China, India and New Zealand (Queensland bauxite to Comalco) on an enormous scale. But I'll bet they aren't doing it in their National Parks

I agree about the proposed NZ mining - its unlikely to provide a huge boom. However the recent Labour govt approved mining in various conservation areas (eg. Pike River) so we have done this already.

As for Oz, they have plenty of mining in national parks. The Australian Alps and especially uranium in Kakadu National Park.

[Winston001]

The interesting thing about this thread is the passion expressed by both sides. Good to see. Actually I think we are all on the same page - nobody wants open-cast devastation of our conservation land. We all value it.

Where we differ is about undertaking a measurement of the locked up mineral potential. Some think that's worth doing (it's happened under the previous govt) and others say No Way. I tend to believe the potential isn't worth the effort - but might be wrong.

As for the international corporates ripping off NZ, that's not a runner. If it was true Australia would be poorer than us and all their mining wealth would be in the hands of lucky American, European, and Chinese investors. I should also point out that the Pike River coal mine (on conservation land) is owned by NZ Oil and Gas, a NZ company.

I do wonder however why our govt can't undertake mining itself if there is a significant opportunity. For example Solid Energy is wholly owned by our govt and is a major coal miner. Any reason Solid Energy can't mine for copper, tungsten, tin, zinc and rare earth elements if they do exist in Kahurangi National Park?

[Ixion]

The interesting thing about this thread is the passion expressed by both sides. Good to see. Actually I think we are all on the same page - nobody wants open-cast devastation of our conservation land. We all value it.

Where we differ is about undertaking a measurement of the locked up mineral potential. Some think that's worth doing (it's happened under the previous govt) and others say No Way. I tend to believe the potential isn't worth the effort - but might be wrong.

As for the international corporates ripping off NZ, that's not a runner. If it was true Australia would be poorer than us and all their mining wealth would be in the hands of lucky American, European, and Chinese investors. I should also point out that the Pike River coal mine (on conservation land) is owned by NZ Oil and Gas, a NZ company.

I do wonder however why our govt can't undertake mining itself if there is a significant opportunity. For example Solid Energy is wholly owned by our govt and is a major coal miner. Any reason Solid Energy can't mine for copper, tungsten, tin, zinc and rare earth elements if they do exist in Kahurangi National Park?

BHP, and other major Australian mineral exploiters are AUSTRALIAN companys. So the value stays in the country. The remedy for NZ is that which you mention. If mining is to be done let it be done by a NZ company , preferably by the NZ government (the latter being more accountable to the public than any private company) . That way we get all the value of the minerals instead of a 1% gesture.

[mashman]

I think one thing you have to add into your opinions are the sizes of Austrailiiaalaia, Oz, however it's spelled... How many New Zealands can you fit inside of Oz, answer, many more New Zealands? They already have 20 million people... factor that in would ya. Hardly surprising they're in such a position with the strength of their banks etc... It's different here.

[rwh]

It's a rape and pillage of resources for MONEY. Futile... money makes the world go around... it's also responsible for some of the worst crimes on the planet...

I think it's the greed, not the money, you want to pin the blame on there. Money is merely a convenient way to trade, without people having to find people who have what they want and want what they have. Hmm, too many pronouns. If I have milk and want meat, and you have meat and want vegetables, and someone else has vegetables and wants milk, any bartering arrangement will have to get a bit complex. Much worse if some of what we want is only available by importing it.

I think there might well be parts of the financial system we'd be better off without, but not money in general. Just IMHO.

I've thought up potential implmenetation plans, all sorts of disjointed information and thoughts... but people won't discuss it because it'll never happen. The only reason it'll never happen is because people can't let go of the concept of money (lord knows I've tried to convert my wife over the last couple of months... She understands it, but can't get her head around not having money)...

Anyway... yes I believe that it can be done...

As you can tell it's still just a rant... needs a few more minds.

I know what you mean about disjointed thoughts ... definitely worth working on them though. I don't spend enough time on that myself.

Richard

[oldrider]

The interesting thing about this thread is the passion expressed by both sides. Good to see. Actually I think we are all on the same page - nobody wants open-cast devastation of our conservation land. We all value it.

Where we differ is about undertaking a measurement of the locked up mineral potential. Some think that's worth doing (it's happened under the previous govt) and others say No Way. I tend to believe the potential isn't worth the effort - but might be wrong.

As for the international corporates ripping off NZ, that's not a runner. If it was true Australia would be poorer than us and all their mining wealth would be in the hands of lucky American, European, and Chinese investors. I should also point out that the Pike River coal mine (on conservation land) is owned by NZ Oil and Gas, a NZ company.

I do wonder however why our govt can't undertake mining itself if there is a significant opportunity. For example Solid Energy is wholly owned by our govt and is a major coal miner. Any reason Solid Energy can't mine for copper, tungsten, tin, zinc and rare earth elements if they do exist in Kahurangi National Park?

"Because we don't know", I believe we should find out, then make decisions on the "facts"

That's the whole big rub isn't it!

Socialists believe it the sole prerogative of "Big Government".

Capitalists believe it is the domain of private enterprise "Big Business".

New Zealand is a socialist country and most of the electorate believe in "Big Government", collective responsibility and appear happy with goals of mediocrity!

New Zealand's major growth industry is crime and our youth are constantly being shown that those who commit the crimes will get the rewards, while those who work hard and pay their taxes, get to pay for it!

Natural wealth laying dormant in the ground while media concentrate on trivia and the chirping of bird watchers and tree huggers distorting the truth with every warble!

Why do I have this sinking feeling every time I look towards the future of this country! :slap:

[mashman]

"C" will be laughing their socks of...

[T.W.R]

I do wonder however why our govt can't undertake mining itself if there is a significant opportunity. For example Solid Energy is wholly owned by our govt and is a major coal miner. Any reason Solid Energy can't mine for copper, tungsten, tin, zinc and rare earth elements if they do exist in Kahurangi National Park?

Because Solid Energy don't mine they contract the work out to Mining companies via tender the expense of setting up an operation with machinery and all the support systems for the machinery is too expensive.

[mashman]

Because Solid Energy don't mine they contract the work out to Mining companies via tender the expense of setting up an operation with machinery and all the support systems for the machinery is too expensive.

Unless, because you're a HUGE mining company, you can just bring your own gear across the Taz?

[Skyryder]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.



So what is National proposing? I'd like to hear it in your own words. Because, judging by what you've written you haven't got a fucking clue.

I thought it was opening up scheule 4 land for mining. so if I'm wrong.......enlighten me.

Skyryder.

[Sach]

No, it's not. Or, at least, not money for US.



I've seen figures quoted of 15 grams of gold per truckload. That's about half an ounce, roughly worth $500. So, for a million dollars worth of mineral, they have to cart 2000 truckloads of ore to the processing plant. And cart the 2000 truckloads (less the 15grams) back away again. That's 4000 truck movements in the Coromandel per year. (Won't that be fun)

But, it's very unlikley that the mining areas will be handy beside an existing road. So, to provide access we, the taxpayer, will be expected to put in new roads. At how many millions of dollars ?

And that 2000 truckloads is going to leave a big hole. At, say, 6 cu mtrs per truck, that's 12000 cu mtr. Say, a hole, very roughly, 12 foot deep and 200 foot across. (or narrower, but deeper)

So, we have : a net LOSS to me of an unknown value , but many many millions across the whole population, because of the mess the mining companies always leave when they pull out. Either the value of the conservation estate is reduced by millions or we (the taxpayer) have to pay millions to clean it up.

We (the taxpayer) have to pay more millions to cover the cost of new roads and/or more damage to the existing ones (4000 truckloads a year remember) .

We have an unquantified loss due to reduced tourism . Dunno how to measure that so I'll ignore it.

OK. That's the downside of every million dollars worth of mineral wealth. So what's the upside to ME and the other NZ citizens (I don't care about profits for overseas corporations).

Gee. We get 1% of the million. A massive $10000 per year. Woopy doo.

And some jobs. How many? Well 4000 trucktrips at half an hour a trip, 2000 hours a year. That's about a man year (on a 40 hour week basis) . So, one job.

And another job for someone to run the digger.

And I guess a manager or clerical person.

And one to run the processing plant. Total of maybe 4 jobs max. As someone noted, mining isn't a labour intensive industry.

If those 4 were all on the dole (about $12000 a year ? Summit like that). That $48000 per year.

Total value to NZ. $10000 plus $48000 . $580000.

Sure, these are wild approximations. And the mining companies are talking billions not millions. Which means more revenue, more jobs, but also means more expense , more mess. So the overall value equation remains the same

This has to be the biggest rort proposed since the original guys arrived offering sensational deals on muskets and bblankets

We pay millions , to get back $58000.

The only people who benefit are the overseas corporatiuons.

Bugger the ecology. it's a ripoff and I oppose it on that basis.

So, I don't know where you got those numbers...

This is what we have here in Waihi

per 100 tonne of Ore there is approx 9 troy oz gold and 90-100 troy oz silver. This works out to nearly 40 k per 100 tonne

each week they proccess approx 750 tonnes of ore


Newmont employs 350 directly in Waihi and for each person employed there is the same number indirectly employed in service and support industries like engineering, landscaping, property management, security, heath and safety and other related industries like housing, reail stores, education and healthcare.

If these people were not living nad working here- these services would not be needed!

193.7 milllion made last year of that 91 % stays in NZ- so not a big profit for Newmont

[Sach]

I thought it was opening up scheule 4 land for mining. so if I'm wrong.......enlighten me.

Skyryder.

they are opening it for exploration

[Skyryder]

Bullshit! the NZ heritage is that of harvesting whale oil to provide fuel, cutting down forests to create farms,Damming rivers to create power,Mining any viable mineral to create wealth,building railways,roads and ports to transport all this.
Study your history,not rewrite you own version

Take a look at the tourist industry and their ad campaigns................they are all about our heritage and values of the NZ environment.

It's the clean Green image that we spendso much to present.


Skyyrder

[cave weta]

So don't know where you got those numbers...

This is what we have here

per 100 toone of Ore there is approx 9 toz gold and 90-100 oz silver works out to nearly 40 k per 100 toone

to process it is 1.5 miliion per oz so a million profit per oz approx


employs directly 350 in Waihi and per one person employed in indirectly employs another.

193.7 milllion made last year of that 91 % stays in NZ- so not a big profit for Newmont

Sach.... Ixion is a grumpy cynical old bastard and if you are going to argue with him ( although I know you are dead right with your figures) You had better sharpen your pencil and your wit and clean up your post so that it is readable so that you dont get shot down by Ixion! what you have to say is valid and correct - but scruffy and hard to read.



Sach and I are two of hundreds here that are indiectly employed by the mine. this town is riding the crest of a financial wave because of that mine. 15 years ago Waihi was like Mangatawhiri, Pokeno, Mercer, Mangakino, Mangaweka, Whangamomona all are now. the mine has given people jobs, opened new businesses, built houses, supported schools and expanded social services.

[Skyryder]

they are opening it for exploration

Brownlee has already given mixed figures on the value of the resource. No mining company is going to go into this without doing their homework. The bottomline on this is the that Key and Brownlle are offering some of th most pristine areas of NZ to mining companies to mine.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/storie...6/1247f8cba468


Skyryder