Position in seat?

[Katman]

Sorry, but no-one has problems sliding around on their seat while just cruising at 50kph while not braking.

We weren't all born yesterday.

[p.dath]

I'm surprised p.dath hasn't made it a Wiki topic yet.

Have you seen my emergency braking blog ...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/en...rgency-Braking

[jonbuoy]

Sorry, but no-one has problems sliding around on their seat while just cruising at 50kph while not braking.

We weren't all born yesterday.

I assume at some point he is going to want to stop, or maybe venture out for a ride that might involve a motorway or a few hills? Regardless he seems to have worked out his mistake.

[Katman]

Have you seen my emergency braking blog ...

I'll try not to.



But seriously - p.dath, you're a prime example.

If theoretical knowledge equalled motorcycling ability you'd be setting the MotoGP world on fire.

Instead you're changing into first gear at 70kph while braking into a corner and ending up on your arse................... and then wondering why.

[Headbanger]

Its a trick question right?



The answer is, Buy a bike that doesn't suck.

[Sentox]

Sorry, but no-one has problems sliding around on their seat while just cruising at 50kph while not braking.

We weren't all born yesterday.

No offense, but I'm glad you're not my mentor. What exactly do I have to gain by inventing a problem?

Also, I didn't say I was sliding around... I'm sliding forward, a much more specific problem. I don't see how it's that hard to believe. The sportsbike posture inclines weight towards the front, jeans and a polished tank don't exactly generate a ton of friction (hell, even my leathers don't, although things improve at lower speeds), and road surfaces around here are less than perfect. If my weight is biased forward, I can't get purchase on the tank, and I'm running over bumps and other imperfections, what exactly is going to happen?

Either way, I've ordered some stomp grips, and will be cleaning off the sides of the tank. If that doesn't solve it, I will concede to being a troll.

Edit: alright, to be fair, if I was on nice smooth road, I'm not going to slide forward into the tank. There just aren't many of those roads around.

[Headbanger]

Have you seen my emergency braking blog ...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/en...rgency-Braking

Oh how I laughed.

[davebullet]

Sorry, but no-one has problems sliding around on their seat while just cruising at 50kph while not braking.

We weren't all born yesterday.

Quite possible if your seat is angled forward and you go over a jarring bump in the road or pot hole and with suspension that does little (cheap = crap like on the SV) - it transmits straight through to the rider lifting you off and depositing you in a different spot on your seat.

Not unless you have a permanent death grip with your knees on the tank - but who does that cruising in a straight line?

[sinfull]

Yes - I started a thread a few years ago asking if anyone was interested in Pace rides, at the time there was very little interest and it was lost in the most bins wins threads. I use Nick Ienatsch Sport riding techniques as my bible, I still re-read as there is only so much you can take in at a time. The best bit of advise any newbie could get is to ignore all the bollocks and bravado on KB and buy a copy.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ntash-The-Pace

Sweet ! Hows the weather over there ?
I've never read the article, but thought it appropriate to try and do the decent thing here and let a guy know, that as a learner fanging up the road and then hitting the brakes was as i said, pushing boundaries, polished or not !

Yeah i ride at a pace ! A rather unique (ya think) technique where i switched from riding a bike with great brakes, to a bike near a third more weight and half the brakes and then up the "pace" !
Fucking great ! Can't think of a better near death experience ! Well maybe jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft will work (i'll let ya know)

[jonbuoy]

Sweet ! Hows the weather over there ?
I've never read the article, but thought it appropriate to try and do the decent thing here and let a guy know, that as a learner fanging up the road and then hitting the brakes was as i said, pushing boundaries, polished or not !

Yeah i ride at a pace ! A rather unique (ya think) technique where i switched from riding a bike with great brakes, to a bike near a third more weight and half the brakes and then up the "pace" !
Fucking great ! Can't think of a better near death experience ! Well maybe jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft will work (i'll let ya know)

Skydive eh? Nice one probably be a bit more a rush than the bike - probably safer too! Weathers good here mate, gearing up for summer. If only the Spanish would learn to pick up their dog shit and not dump rubbish in the streets... Missing clean green NZ but thems the breaks needs must blah blah . Have fun on the dive mate.

[sinfull]

Skydive eh? Nice one probably be a bit more a rush than the bike - probably safer too! Weathers good here mate, gearing up for summer. If only the Spanish would learn to pick up their dog shit and not dump rubbish in the streets... Missing clean green NZ but thems the breaks needs must blah blah . Have fun on the dive mate.

Will do that (i hope) hey clean green on paper only though aye ! I have to avoid taking my dog to the local river or shes sick for three days (god help the kids that swim there) should know by the green sludge thats washing up on the beaches though i guess !
They're picking up our recycling and dumping it all in a landfill with all the other waste !
Makes ya think aye

[Crisis management]

The way I see (and correct me if I am wrong)..

Man what an invite! (The rest of you argue quietly in the corner over there, this is my "discussion"!)

Look, I'm not suggesting you take moto X or enduro riding techniques and apply them on the road, unless you are on a bike that suits those techniques, as an aside, if your mate couldn't hand you your arse on a 950 SE then he needs to learn how to ride (assuming you where on the VTR).

Bike handling is all about maintaining traction on the contact patches and that is achieved by learning how balance, weight distribution and accelleration and braking forces affect those two contact patches. As a generalisation, putting around on a road bike on the road does not teach those skills particularly quickly whereas riding on dirt does, it has constantly changing traction available, terrain variations and an awful lot of direction changes, you learn how to maintain traction or you fall off.
You take those skills and apply them to road riding and you will be a better rider, without doing any research, the names Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer and Colin Edwards spring to mind as riders that have done that.

You can certainly become a very good road rider without ever getting involved with dirt riding, I spent the first 30 years of my riding "career" on asphalt and have never found it difficult to find the limits of traction on a road bike but I learnt more in one year of enduro riding than I did in those 30 years.
At the end of the day, I am simply offering my limited opinion and the OP can take what he wants from it, I only know what works for me and offer any advice on that basis.

YMMV

[Sentox]

I'm all for building skill in any way possible, really. I just don't have the budget to get into offroad at the moment. One day...

[Katman]

No offense, but I'm glad you're not my mentor.

Judging by some of your previous posts here, I'm not surprised.

[R-Soul]

Man what an invite! (The rest of you argue quietly in the corner over there, this is my "discussion"!)

hehe yeah I guess I did ask for it..

Look, I'm not suggesting you take moto X or enduro riding techniques and apply them on the road, unless you are on a bike that suits those techniques, as an aside, if your mate couldn't hand you your arse on a 950 SE then he needs to learn how to ride (assuming you where on the VTR).

That is my point exactly - he NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO RIDE (on road- he is damn good off road). We were not riding together so I cannot comment on whether he was faster - he probably would be because I dont ride fast on the road. But he was telling me that at 200km/hr on a sweeping fast bend he was driftinginto teh oncoming lane. But he also said that he was leaning his bodyweight outwardly to lean his bike in as much as he could. This goes against the design of the bike (ALL bikes), which requires the bike to be more uprioght to create better traction and hence less drifting.

I am not saying that off road techniques cannot be useful (to GP riders too) on the road (going into and coming out of corners), and give confidence where traction is lost, but at the end of the day, both riders are dealing with the same set of rules here- physics. Its a matter of knowing when one technique will be more useful and more effective.

PS in defence of the VTR - it is not down by much on power or torque (if at all). The mian difference is in suspensuion. But that is largely negated by him leaning his bike over as much as he can in turns, while I keep mine upright....

... you learn how to maintain traction or you fall off.

As I understand it, in dirt biking, you learn how to maintain balance while having lost traction or you fall off. Because dirt bikes are all about breaking traction to assist your corner entry and exit (again, and I am a sucker for punishment here, but tell me if this is incorrect).

These are the facts:
1) When you lean the bike over more, it has less traction (unless you are on a berm).
2) When you lean outward, the bike leans in more.
3) Leaning the bike over more allows it to make sharper turns at slow speed (when not counter steering)
4) Dirt bikers use leaning to create traction breakaway to align their bikes for the next corner better, and to turn sharper in low speed corners.
5) On high speed corners on dirt, traction breaks away so fast that they dont even bother trying to maintain traction sideways on the tyre, they just angle the bikes back wheel to face inwardly of the corner, and use the the scrabbling of the tyre inwardly as a replacement for sideways traction (think dirt speedway).

You take those skills and apply them to road riding and you will be a better rider, without doing any research, the names Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer and Colin Edwards spring to mind as riders that have done that.

No arguments there. But these guys first ride with correct technique for the track/road at high speed until they have exceeded the limits, after which they use their dirt bike balancing techniques to maintain balance once their traction is lost, or if they see that they have gone into a corner too fast because they were dragging somone else on the straight. But its a reversion to these techniques in case of emergency manouvering, not a preference for them (since breaking traction on purpose results in increased tire wear and will NOT get you around a corner as fast as if you do it smoothly and with maximum traction available -that is just straight logic).

OK, Haga slides into and out of corners regularly but he is a master and regularly ends up struggling with tyres at the end of the race....

You can certainly become a very good road rider without ever getting involved with dirt riding, I spent the first 30 years of my riding "career" on asphalt and have never found it difficult to find the limits of traction on a road bike but I learnt more in one year of enduro riding than I did in those 30 years.
At the end of the day, I am simply offering my limited opinion and the OP can take what he wants from it, I only know what works for me and offer any advice on that basis.

YMMV

I am not saying you are wrong - and I am sorry if it came out like that - all that I am saying is that a good understanding of what is actually happening in both scenarios is critical, so that you dont end up mistakenly applying a poorer technique to bad situations that will actually make it worse.

I say flat out that I have had limited experience in trail riding (although I have had a little bit- which I subjected to my typical applied mathematics analysis).

I am probably Katman's prime example of a person who understands too much, but has not had enough time in the saddle to be able to apply it properly. And Katman, I undertsand that too much info can be confusing, but surely too little info can also be deadly?