All this Newbie BULLSHIT!!!

[justsomeguy]

Hi there,

I’ve been reading a lot of posts and I feel one aspect has been overlooked.

Let's get one thing straight. No one in this country can ride a bike on a public road until they are 15.

Yes, yes I know some of you will argue that you had not yet perfected eating solid foods and wore diapers at that age. But the majority of us had developed a pretty clear sense of right and wrong.

Now just because someone is "new" to riding a motorcycle doesn't mean that they also happen to be an innocent, clueless infant incapable of wiping the saliva off their chin.

They should know that if they ride faster than they are capable of they would fall off.

They should know that when they learnt to ride a bicycle they usually rode it a bit faster a few years after they managed to stop falling off.

They should know that they are riding for the most part with a group of strangers.

Every person who rides a motorcycle knows that they are undertaking a dangerous activity.

Thus I feel the newbies should be held responsible for their own actions.

At the end of the day it is the newbie-greenhorn-young buck-novice who is in ultimate control of his motorcycle and responsible for being aware of his/her surrounding environment.

If this were a training school and the riders were under the supervision of qualified instructors who were hired by the rider to do exactly that, then perhaps a little more responsibility may be directed at the instructors.

As one of KB’s more vocal newbies – I got my learner license on the 20^th of Jan 2005 and have been riding mostly weekends only since December and have a lot of experience being the slowest rider of the pack – I would like to say that we should just shut up and go ride.

People know that if they cross limits there will be consequences; they are either just going to have to deal with it. Or, or (here’s an idea) not put themselves in that position in the first place.

I personally believe that whether it is a ride or a professional race the only person you have to beat is you. It doesn’t matter what speed the other rider is doing all you need to do is set a pace that is your best pace. If that happens to be faster than the person in front you will end up passing them, if it results in a slower rate of movement compared to the next person you will end up being passed. SIMPLE.

And progress doesn’t have to be speed alone, smoothness, technique, stress levels all qualify as suitable benchmarks.

[James Deuce]

There are two important facts you are overlooking.

1. What every parent of grown children, and what every male of about 40 and older learns: People under the age of 25 are immortal. It doesn't happen to them. It happens to other people. Ask yourself - do you know that you cannot guarantee that you will walk back in the door the next time you go out?

2. At age 15 brain development has not yet finished. The most common cause of angry parent/teen exchanges is because the areas of the brain that control perceptions of facial expressions and impulse control lag behind other parts. Late adolesence is characterised by mistakes such as confusing surprise with fear, concern with anger. Concious impulse control, e.g. I'm not going to wang through this corner as hard as I can because so and so does, isn't fully in the average male's grasp until 23-25.

Robert Lord Winston goes into it in great detail in the BBC series "Human Instinct", and there is also a growing body of research that confirms these theories.

Of course anyone who has ever put an army together knows the winning combination of immortality and fearless bravado in the under 25 year old, and puts it to great use in hopeless or pointless situations. Not to the under 25 year old's advantage either.

You can't expect everyone to bide by the rational mindset you've outlaid. That's why us old farts have to go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, in the vain hope that one tiny fraction of the pain we've experienced, emotional or physical, will seep through and infect a "newbie" with a sense of personal responsibility.

I remember my "yoof" as being characterised by intense selfishness. It was ALL about me man. I knew best, and the old farts were boring and had no idea.

As they say, youth is wasted on the young.

[justsomeguy]

Yes Jim2, Youth is a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.........

It is with great interest that I read your reply. For I am under 25 and I assume that you are over 25.

To answer point one of your important facts, yes I do know that I can't guarantee anything in life. I've learnt that the hard way and have used up a few of my life points in the process.

As for point two I had no idea that the average male took that long to develop those psycological aspects of their behaviour.

I do understand the young and restless analogy but the subject of conscious impulse control came as a complete surprise to me.

What I intended to discuss in my initial post was simply hazard recognition. I completely overlooked that fact that the younger we are the larger are the panes of the later Johari Windows of our psyche.

[dangerous]

People under the age of 25 are immortal. It doesn't happen to them. It happens to other people.

So true too, these newbee riders tend as a general rule to think they are bullet proof and do not relise that every 'action' has a 'reaction' and that they can do what another rider that has been riding for 20yrs can do...... na, dosent work like that.
So the younger riders need the learn, putting in there place.... it may be all in there control while out on a ride but if they take someone out then it affects every one.
I have no problem with anyone kicking another riders arse...... for doing dumb shit.

[Antallica]

Another point to note, there are a lot of newbie riders on here now. Sometimes posting on how funny it was crasing the other day etc. Sometimes I just can't be bothered browsing in the hopes of a good thread anymore.

[Will]

Another point to note, there are a lot of newbie riders on here now. Sometimes posting on how funny it was crasing the other day etc. Sometimes I just can't be bothered browsing in the hopes of a good thread anymore.

The "newbies" are on here mainly because there is no other place to network.

So good on them. I wish there was something like this 30 years ago. Instead we had a small group of mates to talk shit with. This network here is so much bigger and there are so many different age groups and ridersd as well as bikes. A VERY HEALTHY MIX!

Ok, I get bored with the repitition of all these new experiences going on but then if I don't like it, I either leave or put something more interesting in.

But then of course I have got Ulysses, so this is no way a big part of my bike world.

[James Deuce]

Yes Jim2, Youth is a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.........

It is with great interest that I read your reply. For I am under 25 and I assume that you are over 25.

To answer point one of your important facts, yes I do know that I can't guarantee anything in life. I've learnt that the hard way and have used up a few of my life points in the process.

As for point two I had no idea that the average male took that long to develop those psycological aspects of their behaviour.

I do understand the young and restless analogy but the subject of conscious impulse control came as a complete surprise to me.

What I intended to discuss in my initial post was simply hazard recognition. I completely overlooked that fact that the younger we are the larger are the panes of the later Johari Windows of our psyche.

Cheers. It isn't psychology, it's actually physical brain development. There are bits of the brain that just don't develop capability as quickly as others. At 15 we've only been able to calculate trajectory, velocity, and vectors intuitively for about 5 years. Not a lot of practice to then go and throw velocities 5, to 7, to 10 times greater than what we've been practicing wth before then.

[James Deuce]

Dont you think its abit general/unfair to say that all riders under 25 dont consider consequences of their actions?..

Not fishing - just I dont feel that way about it, I know the majority do but there are (surprise) some more mature ones floating around..

No that isn't what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that the depth of understanding of the implications of those consequences is generally beyond folks in the flush of youth. This is probably a good thing for the species, because it means that the most adventurous members of the species will do some crazy things, survive and learn from it. The corollary is that quite a few of them die in ways that make people who got through the phase quite frustrated.

I count myself as having belonged to the "immortal" youth bracket, and I'm not pointing finger from on high, so to speak. I lecture from experience, because I've been resuss'ed in the back of an Ambulance repeatedly from accident site to hospital. I most definitely wasn't immortal after that experience.

[John]

No that isn't...

Sorry was referring to dangerous, and in the process I mis-interpreted his post - carry on.

[Ms Piggy]

Well we've been here and discussed all this before, only it's such an old thread I couldn't find it. I can only talk about being a "newbie" from my own personal experience of (for about 5 minutes) trying to keep up on the 1st group ride I went on - stupid idea! I'm not saying this is what all newbie riders do though and heck I'm a 33 year old woman!

However, I do think that there can be an unspoken pressure among riders that you may not even be conciously aware of to 'keep up' or ride faster.

Is an older more experienced rider responsible for the actions of a newbie on a group ride? Maybe not directly but I'd have to say I believe that indirectly they are.

Now you can't tell me you have never felt egged on by other riders to push it a little bit further than you do normally - congratulations if you haven't given in to that but I know for my part, even on my little beastie, that I have felt that pressure.

I've realised now that it's that feeling of wanting to be part of the group or keep up that causes me to make bad judgements. As a newbie it's taken me a while to get it into my head that I'm a 250cc, the guys are on 600+cc bikes, this means they go A LOT faster and have MUCH more power. Sounds obvious aye but when you're a newbie in every sense of the word it's little things like that, that I would challenge the more experienced riders to consider when on a group ride.

The group rides I always felt safest on was when there was an appointed tail end charlie. That way I knew I would never be left behind and they other riders knew that it I wouldn't get lost.

I think if you ride in a group there is a group responsibility as well as personal responsibility. To paraphrase what Dangerous said: cause and affect.

[Stevo]

[QUOTE=justsomeguy]Yes Jim2, Youth is a wonderful thing. What a crime to waste it on children.........

It is with great interest that I read your reply. For I am under 25 and I assume that you are over 25.

Just a little bit eh Jim

BTW What got up your ass JustSomeGuy? ie, Why this animosity toward newbs? Are you a hero on every ride and take off leaving everyone in your wake? Did someone complain about this? I regularly ride with both my Mrs and with SniperCBR who both ride slower than me and I ride to the pace of the slowest rider. If I want to go off at my pace I will ride by myself but sometimes I enjoy the company so why ride off without them? :spudwhat:

I just don't get what you are getting at!!!

[Lou Girardin]

Personally, I don't feel responsible for anything anyone else does. (Unless I told them to do it)

[scumdog]

As Jim2 and Dangerous said, when you're young (me too - a LONG time ago!)
you have little idea of vunerability, consequence of action and little comprehension of the laws of physics.

- After all when WW1 and WW2 were going a heap of 16 & 17 year olds lied to join the army etc and yet they should have 'known' people get killed at wars.

They had that mind set that I still see- "Won't happen to me" amazing how a supposedly intelligent person would think "ah, it'll be some other poor bastard that'll get it"

Then when one of their mates gets killed they all act surprised????

When you're old like me you don't think "Never happen", more like "When will it happen" when you see some form of stupidity, whether it be bikes or anything else and especially young people.

It's a fact of life and growing old JSG!

[justsomeguy]

Cheers. It isn't psychology, it's actually physical brain development. There are bits of the brain that just don't develop capability as quickly as others. At 15 we've only been able to calculate trajectory, velocity, and vectors intuitively for about 5 years. Not a lot of practice to then go and throw velocities 5, to 7, to 10 times greater than what we've been practicing wth before then.

So how do the younger riders - 3-4 year olds who take up riding, go-karting, etc do it??

[ManDownUnder]

ooo I read this and I laughed - OH how I laughed...

do a quick search in Google... "Fronatl Lobes" Development and risk...

I did and found a something to take a quick look at...

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...cid=27&did=977

... a relevant snippet...
In light of what has been learned, it seems almost arbitrary that our society has decided that a young American is ready to drive a car at 16, to vote and serve in the Army at 18 and to drink alcohol at 21. Giedd says the best estimate for when the brain is truly mature is 25, the age at which you can rent a car. "Avis must have some pretty sophisticated neuroscientists," he jokes. Now that we have scientific evidence that the adolescent brain is not quite up to scratch, some legal scholars and child advocates argue that minors should never be tried as adults and should be spared the death penalty. Last year, in an official statement that summarized current research on the adolescent brain, the American Bar Association urged all state legislatures to ban the death penalty for juveniles. "For social and biological reasons," it read, "teens have increased difficulty making mature decisions and understanding the consequences of their actions."

...
"NEXT!" *DING*
MDU