Police killing us again!

[Patrick]

What difference does it make how fast the oncoming vehicle was going? The fact is the officer commenced a three point turn to give chase, and a motorcyclist collided with the Police vehicle, and died.

So true. The reason for the turn has nothing to do with this.

Quoted for truth.

The speed of the ute and the motorcyclist have been called into question; None of these are relevant. All that matters is piggy did something fucking stupid, and someone died from it.

And that's what started this whole thread. There are 2 opposing arguments in regard to speed; that the one going fast could have stopped before hitting the bad driver (the Police car) had he been going slower, and that it is entirely the fault of the Police car.

Now, we don't know how fast the bike was going, so why are we all speculating before we know at all? The best we will ever be able to do is let the Serious Crash guys make an estimate based on the physical evidence. This is normally a pretty good estimate, but is still only an estimate.

Let's not forget that most crashes are a result of a combination of factors, rarely just one single cause. Based solely on the photos I have only seen on KB, this was truly an awful place to do a U-turn or 3 point turn. The bike may have been going too fast to be able to avoid the Police car, but we don't know. The ute is what caused the Police driver to commence the U-turn or 3 point turn, apparently exacerbated by target fixation. It's not like the Police driver was just turning to get to the next donut shop.

Until this one plays out in court (Coroners or District), we are all just speculating.

Beat me to it Rastus. The ute at least and the bike probably ARE contributing factors. The cause is still clear, but there are contributing factors.

Well if marked cars prevent people doing "daft shit",maybe more marked cars are the answer.
After all,what is the object of the exercise?Stopping people doing "daft shit",or catching them and draining their wallets?

NO plain cars for traffic in these parts. It went in the cuts. HI vis is what the boss wants. But folk are such blind twats - they don't even notice the red and blues that they are approaching at 80kmph in a 50 k zone.......

,br/> No. Because whatever the ute did is irrelevant.

The whole issue is that the cop did a turn in a place patently unsafe. Whatever the ute did had zero effect on that. Tell me, what speed would the ute have had to be going at to make that turn safe?

The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 10kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 100kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 154 kph
The turn was unsafe if the ute was doing 200kph.
The speed of the bike may argueably be relevant. But the focus on the ute is merely an example of the obfuscation and smokescreens with which the police obscure simple matters.

The cop had no business to try to do a turn there even if a uteful of monkeys flew past on the other side at 300 kph, strumming banjoes with their tails on fire.

The ute is irrelevant. Getting involved in arguments about it merely plays up to the police tactics of obscure confuse and find someone else to blame.

The ute is not irrelevant. Neither is the speed of the bike. The cause is clear.

Nit-picking, perhaps, but the ute and its alleged speed did not cause the cop to turn. The cop DECIDED to turn, because he saw the speeding ute. The cop was, at all times, the deciding factor in what he did.
The ute and its speed was at most the catalyst only for what followed.

Well answered by Ixion #1164

Yep - a contributing factor..........

I didnt mean it like that, i understand that this will take time to investigate properly...iam just wondering if there is any new information to ponder about related to the accident instead of this "camry vs commodore" argument (possibly some insider info leaked or some other witness cropped up...etc)

Probably have been some bosses having a read of KB. They are selecting the firing squad now, because cops don't have the addage of being innocent until proven guilty.

Seems like not much to see here with 1 bad year for deaths in 2003 (all pursued) and a worsening trend to serious injury from chase incidents, but recent stuff about people hurt by collateral damage is not finalised or included in CAS as either crash reports are not in or processed.

Table 1:....................0

And another way of viewing this is, those who try to flee the Police are the cause of many deaths and injuries.....?

Just a thought......

[Smifffy]

Beat me to it Rastus. The ute at least and the bike probably ARE contributing factors. The cause is still clear, but there are contributing factors.



NO plain cars for traffic in these parts. It went in the cuts. HI vis is what the boss wants. But folk are such blind twats - they don't even notice the red and blues that they are approaching at 80kmph in a 50 k zone.......



The ute is not irrelevant. Neither is the speed of the bike. The cause is clear.



Yep - a contributing factor..........



Probably have been some bosses having a read of KB. They are selecting the firing squad now, because cops don't have the addage of being innocent until proven guilty.



And another way of viewing this is, those who try to flee the Police are the cause of many deaths and injuries.....?

Just a thought......

Personally I couldn't give a rat's arse about anyone that flees the police killing themselves.

I am concerned about them killining/injuring others.

I am concerned about the pursuers killing/injuring others.

On the few occasions that the runners do end up harming themselves or others, I find the police claim that the pursuit ended 3 seconds prior to the impact, quite frankly laughable. At normal road speeds it takes just under 2 seconds to react and stop, so what's with the 3 second thing?

"Oh shit, call off the purs....... BOOOM!!"

TUI dudes

[Indoo]

\ so what's with the 3 second thing?

Your the one who made it up, maybe you could share if its not too personal.

[Smifffy]

Your the one who made it up, maybe you could share if its not too personal.

You're the one who made it up.

HTH

[Patrick]

......... On the few occasions that the runners do end up harming themselves or others, I find the police claim that the pursuit ended 3 seconds prior to the impact, quite frankly laughable. At normal road speeds it takes just under 2 seconds to react and stop, so what's with the 3 second thing?

"Oh shit, call off the purs....... BOOOM!!"

TUI dudes

Your words.... the few occasions.

Yeah, hard to accept. But since the vast majority are called off or crash well after the abandonment.............

But hey, that's not fair..... there is no cop to blame there, I suppose.........

[Smifffy]

How many changes, even preliminary, interim, draft or minor have been made to pursuit procedures since the IPCA called for change in October last year?

Is Tooman likely to be aware of any review being undertaken at any time between then and now?

Maybe the review will be commenced moments before the release of the next investigation.

A bit like how Gavin MacDonnell took up non-sworn duties at Orewa before breaching policy & procedures in an unmarked car? Police denied for 2-3 months that any pursuit even took place.

He was considered a gold class driver, and had he still been a sworn officer, his discipline was likely to consist of counselling and training on the policy?

It is becoming clearer to me now why members of the force are trying to avoid scrutiny.

[Skinon]

Probably have been some bosses having a read of KB. They are selecting the firing squad now, because cops don't have the addage of being innocent until proven guilty.

I hope they are reading, and they actually decide to make a change to there pursuit tactics. Although i personally reckon that it wouldn't make much difference because like i said before cops are just humans in blue suits, they are just as supsceptible to corruption and making stupid fuck ups as the rest of us are.

And who said that we are innocent until proven guilty?? thats the biggest load of shit they feed you. i have actually asked the filth that question and have been told, No thats what the bail systems for. Thats why before you are charged with anything you get curfews or drinking bans etc etc... Unfortunately it's very much guilty until proven innocent.

[Spearfish]

YAWN, oh sorry did I say that out loud?

I reckon super troopers is a cool movie, especially the opening scene with the bogans... should be a police training requirement!

This thread reminds me of the movie Deliverance...

Cant say I have any trouble with the popo but the several million cars I share the road with reminds me of the movie Duel...

And just for those on here who seem to be stuck in their rebellious teen years...Easy Rider wasn't a documentary! ya can grow ya hair man...

[scumdog]

O.T. but in the USA if you are being pursued and as a result of YOUR actions anyboby gets hurt?

Then YOU get charged with their injury/death.

So if a cop is chasing you, T-bones another car and both drivers are killed/injured YOU get charged with their death/injuries

Some if a civilian runs off the road getting out of the cops way - YOU get charged with any applicable charges if they're injured.

I guess in this tragic case that law wouldn't apply because it happened in NZ...

[scumdog]

On the few occasions that the runners do end up harming themselves or others, I find the police claim that the pursuit ended 3 seconds prior to the impact, quite frankly laughable. At normal road speeds it takes just under 2 seconds to react and stop, so what's with the 3 second thing?

"Oh shit, call off the purs....... BOOOM!!"


TUI dudes

They don't ALWAYS crash only '3 seconds' after the pursuit is called off.

In any event, they chose to run....for whatever really valid reason they think they have for doing so, the fact they crashed just adds to their woes.

At the end of the day it's a no-win situation.

No pursuits?

EVERY dickwad will do a 'runner' when the cops try to pull them over - and it will happen a lot more, especially if in a stolen car.

Of course street cred will plummet, after all, how can you say to your mates "Yer, I gave them pigs the learn, outdrove 'em like they were standing still" when the cop WAS standing still.

[red mermaid]

Lets have that law here.....gee, would that mean Mr Ute driver would be held accountable and be charged for the resulting death?

I like that idea.

O.T. but in the USA if you are being pursued and as a result of YOUR actions anyboby gets hurt?

Then YOU get charged with their injury/death.

So if a cop is chasing you, T-bones another car and both drivers are killed/injured YOU get charged with their death/injuries

Some if a civilian runs off the road getting out of the cops way - YOU get charged with any applicable charges if they're injured.

I guess in this tragic case that law wouldn't apply because it happened in NZ...

[Jonno.]

O.T. but in the USA if you are being pursued and as a result of YOUR actions anyboby gets hurt?

Then YOU get charged with their injury/death.

So if a cop is chasing you, T-bones another car and both drivers are killed/injured YOU get charged with their death/injuries

Some if a civilian runs off the road getting out of the cops way - YOU get charged with any applicable charges if they're injured.

I guess in this tragic case that law wouldn't apply because it happened in NZ...

But the ute didn't cause the accident did he? He wasn't even running.

I think you'll find in the USA if you pull a fucking stupid U turn that kills someone, you'll get sued.

[miloking]

Lets have that law here.....gee, would that mean Mr Ute driver would be held accountable and be charged for the resulting death?

I like that idea.

Also make him accountable for the current global recession and floods in south island!!!

People like you with such a retarded logic realy scare me....what if you end up voting or god forbid decide to go into politics!

[candor]

O.T. but in the USA if you are being pursued and as a result of YOUR actions anyboby gets hurt?

Then YOU get charged with their injury/death.

...

And don't forget the Police can get charged too. You'll find willing keen lawyers adverising for for this here;
http://www.pursuitwatch.org/home.shtml

Which is why many States are adopting restrictive chase policies with fabulous road safety impacts. I'd rather be safe than lose sleep over concerns that some speeder no longer thinks of the Police as deadly serious rabbit chasers.

Police recruits should be forced to write essays based on this website paying particular attention to the page titled "If the bad guys hadn't run none of this would have happened…" which sounds a little like "if he hadn't called me a dick I wouldn't have broken his nose.. or that chicks that got in the way... oops"

Another mandatory requirement might be to hang Justice Goddards report just beside their Peace officer vows to country and god, on their bedroom wall. I spotted these in a cop shop today! And why are top brass road policers riding round in taxis, kept waiting for 20 minutes? So much for trimming the dripping. And why the hats - bit old, nurseys got rid of 'em years ago. For pilots it was always to look distinguished and convey authority and trust. Is it an attmept at that, standard issue or earned?

[scumdog]

Ahh..nothing like dropping a brick onto the wasps nest...