Motorcycle accident myths - A public presentation on the facts

[Katman]

Excuse me for butting in; but do you have ant specific ideas how we could improve motorcycle training and licencing?

Specific ideas on motorcycle training would likely fill a whole thread of it's own. Suffice to say, the idea of getting someone to ride around a few cones for a couple of hours and then giving them a certificate which allows them to go out and learn to ride on the streets of Auckland and the like is nothing short of a recipe for disaster.

Yes, the German licensing model sounds like a good idea. Sure it would cost considerably more to get your license but the reduction in the number of deaths and injuries would make it money well spent.

[pritch]

Yes, the German licensing model sounds like a good idea. Sure it would cost considerably more to get your license but the reduction in the number of deaths and injuries would make it money well spent.

The Germans have a similarly comprehensive hunting licence education system. Knowing this I loaned one of my shotguns to a German. I got the gun back in two pieces. There is an old saying to the effect that it's no good educating idiots.

None of which should be taken as indicating that I don't agree with more comprehensive driver training, but some form of psychological testing might not go amiss as well?

[peasea]

The Germans have a similarly comprehensive hunting licence education system. Knowing this I loaned one of my shotguns to a German. I got the gun back in two pieces. There is an old saying to the effect that it's no good educating idiots.

None of which should be taken as indicating that I don't agree with more comprehensive driver training, but some form of psychological testing might not go amiss as well?

That would open up a can of worms, wouldn't it? I can just imagine a scratchy test for sanity lol.

[bogan]

That would open up a can of worms, wouldn't it? I can just imagine a scratchy test for sanity lol.

well theres already a computer one, and if you're reading this then I'm afraid I have some bad news for you!







kb being where all the mad coonts are

[peasea]

well theres already a computer one, and if you're reading this then I'm afraid I have some bad news for you!







kb being where all the mad coonts are

Oh crap, another epic fail I'm going to need counselling for.

"Jimmy! Are you there Jimmy?"

Slurp. Ahh, that's better.

[Katman]

And furthermore, the sooner we see a change at the head of BRONZ Auckland, the better will be the advancement of motorcycling.

[MarkH]

I still think that all car drivers should have to ride a push bike and a motor scooter around town for half an hour before they get a car licence
They would have one big appreciation for the real people that ride on two wheels.

I read that they want to improve education/training for motorcyclists - I have no objection to that, it sounds like a good idea. Maybe ACC should subsidise training for anyone that wants it - less accidents is surely a good thing? But what about car drivers, they cause a lot of injuries to bikers - what about some training for them?

What I would suggest is this:
When a driver fucks up (failure to give way, running a red light, etc) then instead of a fine and then carry on driving like a dick - how about a fine and mandatory driver training, teach the idiots about taking more care at intersections. Sure a fender bender may not be such a big deal, but if their driving doesn't change then maybe next time they will injure a motorcyclist.

What about when you get too many demerit points - they take your license off you for 3 months. How about a mandatory advanced driving course instead - teach you to drive better! (admittedly you do get practise at driving REALLY carefully and within the law for 3 months when you have no license). Personally I think a 3 month loss of license is bloody stupid - some of us can't work without having a license and losing your job is a bit harsh when you have already been punished for each offence that earned the demerit points. The work license system is also daft - you can't apply for it for the first month (I would be bankrupt if I went a month without working) and then it costs heaps to get the temporary license for less than 2 months. The authorities work to hard to fuck over the motorists and do too little to help them become more competent.

[p.dath]

I read that they want to improve education/training for motorcyclists - I have no objection to that, it sounds like a good idea. Maybe ACC should subsidise training for anyone that wants it - less accidents is surely a good thing? But what about car drivers, they cause a lot of injuries to bikers - what about some training for them?

What I would suggest is this:
When a driver fucks up (failure to give way, running a red light, etc) then instead of a fine and then carry on driving like a dick - how about a fine and mandatory driver training, teach the idiots about taking more care at intersections. Sure a fender bender may not be such a big deal, but if their driving doesn't change then maybe next time they will injure a motorcyclist.

What about when you get too many demerit points - they take your license off you for 3 months. How about a mandatory advanced driving course instead - teach you to drive better! (admittedly you do get practise at driving REALLY carefully and within the law for 3 months when you have no license). Personally I think a 3 month loss of license is bloody stupid - some of us can't work without having a license and losing your job is a bit harsh when you have already been punished for each offence that earned the demerit points. The work license system is also daft - you can't apply for it for the first month (I would be bankrupt if I went a month without working) and then it costs heaps to get the temporary license for less than 2 months. The authorities work to hard to fuck over the motorists and do too little to help them become more competent.

I like the way you think, but playing Devil's advocate;

Lets say someone looses their licence for three months through collecting too many demerits through speeding - how will an advanced driving course make any difference? They didn't loose their licence because of a lack of skill ...

I think a 3 month loss of licence is appropriate. There has to be consequences. It's part of the penalty. If you don't like the penalty ... well the solution is obvious isn't?

What about a slight variation on your idea. If a driver is involved in an accident with another individual (be it a cyclist, pedestrian, car, motorcylist train, etc) then send them on a training (or "re-education") course. Because this kind of error is related to a failure to appreciate the situation you are in and the environment around you. Perhaps more of a defensive driving course, than an advanced driving course.

EDIT: And what do you do about those people who don't do the training course?

[RiderInBlack]

EDIT: And what do you do about those people who don't do the training course?

That's easy, longer suspension (eg: 6 months instead of 3) of their drivers license. If they are caught driving/riding during their suspension, then impounding of their vehicle for the lenght of the suspension. If they don't have a vehicle, then community service lasting the lenght of the suspension.

[MarkH]

Lets say someone looses their licence for three months through collecting too many demerits through speeding - how will an advanced driving course make any difference? They didn't loose their licence because of a lack of skill ...

If they don't lack skill then they don't need the course - so they either lose their license for 3 months or pay and do a course they don't need, this is on top of the fines they had to pay as they incurred those demerit points. If they continue to speed then at least they are well trained and skilled - so they probably aren't the huge threat to everyone's lives that speeders are made out to be.

I think that any sort of incident which shows bad driving and failure to adhere to the laws could be used as an excuse to make someone up-skill their driving abilities - there is plenty of evidence out on our roads that a huge number of drivers could do with more training and a reminder of how to take more care. All drivers new to driving should also be made to get more training before we give them a license to pilot a tonne and a half (or more) of glass & steel at 100kph on a road shared with other motorists.

The authorities don't do much to improve drivers - failure to give way is what? $150 fine, some demerit point and carry on? If it was all about reducing accidents then a $150 1-day course in road rules would be a better penalty than a $150 fine. Many drivers would find that giving up a day of their time would be more annoying than the fee - maybe they might make a greater effort to drive more sensibly to avoid such punishment in the future. Better they stop failing to give way BEFORE they break a perfectly good motorcycle as well as the legs of the motorcyclist.

It's all well and good to train motorcyclists to ride better, but when someone pulls out of an intersection without looking properly then if there isn't enough room to avoid the car there is a high chance of injury which will cost ACC money, which we will have to pay when we register our bikes - ACC should be pushing better education for car drivers so they don't cause injuries to bikers so ACC doesn't have to pay so much to us.

Government departments seem to be good at taking our money, but bad at anything else.

[p.dath]

That's easy, longer suspension (eg: 6 months instead of 3) of their drivers license. If they are caught driving/riding during their suspension, then impounding of their vehicle for the lenght of the suspension. If they don't have a vehicle, then community service lasting the lenght of the suspension.

I guess you could always say you have to present the "training certificate" to get your licence back. That's easy.

[RiderInBlack]

I guess you could always say you have to present the "training certificate" to get your license back. That's easy.

Yep. Make training an option to shorten ya suspension, and there would be a lot that would go for it. Of cause the suspended driver would have to pay for the course. I tell ya that when I was self employed and suspended for 3 months for too many demerits, I would have gone to a course rather than the suspension any day. 3 months without income (no driving meant no work) would have made me go belly-up, and I couldn't afford the Grand to apply for an exemption.

[avgas]

And furthermore, the sooner we see a change at the head of BRONZ Auckland, the better will be the advancement of motorcycling.

Huh, that doesn't sound like you katman........
I will disagree with you to see if I can bash the common sense back.
It doesn't matter a flying fuck who is in charge of BRONZ - those balding morons don't change the way I ride, I do.
If you want motorcycling to advance - stop making it so easy to do. I am sick of the young on bullets who act like rossi and promptly drop it, or the old born again farts who now rely on the technology in the new bikes to save their life because it takes them 5 seconds to grab the brake lever.
What happened to being forced to learn from you mistakes in a paddock before you got onto the road?
Learning how to lose it on a bike before you could buy it?
My riding skill is shit - but the rest of the world has become so complacent that it makes me look like my riding skill is increasing where the reality is that its decreasing.
BRONZ don't count for 3/8" of a pigs dick in the world of motorcycling.

[Katman]

Huh, that doesn't sound like you katman........
I will disagree with you to see if I can bash the common sense back.
It doesn't matter a flying fuck who is in charge of BRONZ - those balding morons don't change the way I ride, I do.
If you want motorcycling to advance - stop making it so easy to do. I am sick of the young on bullets who act like rossi and promptly drop it, or the old born again farts who now rely on the technology in the new bikes to save their life because it takes them 5 seconds to grab the brake lever.
What happened to being forced to learn from you mistakes in a paddock before you got onto the road?
Learning how to lose it on a bike before you could buy it?
My riding skill is shit - but the rest of the world has become so complacent that it makes me look like my riding skill is increasing where the reality is that its decreasing.
BRONZ don't count for 3/8" of a pigs dick in the world of motorcycling.

I agree entirely that the responsibility for our own well-being rests squarely on our own shoulders and the sooner that BRONZ accept and endorse that fact, the better.

However, when it comes to presenting motorcyclists grievances to the powers that be, we would stand a far better chance of gaining a sympathetic ear if we weren't represented by a clown intent on off-loading blame onto everyone else.