ACC full of crap: caught with pants around the ankles!

[BMWST?]

So if 60% of motorcycle accidents are caused by the motorcyclist how can driver education be the larger issue?

your hobby horse is getting the better of you...60 percent of motorcycle accidents either involve no other vehicles or involve another vehicle(S) where the motorcyclist may or may not be at fault.the other 40 percent another vehicle IS at fault

[JMemonic]

Went to the good Professors presentation, dam informative on how some of the stats are derived, interestingly enough the stats presented by the Govt and ACC are way off international figures. Part of the issue is how accidents are recorded in the databases, and then how the information is accessed and used, I hope to have links to information from the presentation for all to see in due course as what we saw was only part of a paper due to be presented at a conference in the USA soon.

[mashman]

Ministry of Transport say 39% of bike accidents were caused by other road users.

This Professor says likewise - 40% of bike accidents were caused by other road users.

BRONZ and many other motorcycle spokesmen said most motorcycle accidents are caused by other road users.

So who were the ones talking crap..??? What exactly is the Prof telling us that we didn't know before..???

lol, the impartial man might be able to find out... until he's discredited that is... problem is noone really wants to find out... there'd be no arguments over who had the correct figures... we'd just have a set of figures that "opposing" sides agreed on and then we could start talking about real preventative measures instead of poking each other in the eye because that's what suits the agenda of the moment... it's pretty much what we're all asking for, yet noone seems to care... so we think there's dodgy dealings (there may well be), political agendas and conspiracy theories galore to muddy the waters even further and get off message... divide and conquer... we all know it, but we also like the drama of disagreeing...

[Phurrball]

Here's the linky to the Radio NZ story and audio:

RNZ Charles Lamb Study

[Ixion]

Unfortunately there's one little gotcha in the press report

Associate Professor Charles Lamb of Lincoln University says it was based on an ACC claim that motorcyclists are to blame for 87% of the crashes they are involved in.

The ACC didn't base the increase on such a claim. There basis was much simpler. Simply that we cost more than we paid. ACC doesn't actually care who CAUSES an accident, only who they PAY.

And the 87% figure didn't come from ACC. It came from our dear friends the AA.

[Ixion]

BTW, that 87% figure was "invented" by the AA. Just their way of showing the love. But, I have heard how the figure was arrived at.

Fristly, it is 87% of accidents where THEY (the AA, not the police) deemed the motorcycle has ANY responsibility. Even 1%. And, that "responsibility" could be a dereliction such as not wearing hi-viz vest! Thus, by their logic contributing to the crash by failing to make himself visible.

I can't vouch for that explanation, I had it second hand. But I'm inclined to believe it.

The ONLY figures for crash responsibility that I DO place any credence whatsoever in are those from the MoT (who get them from the police)

They say (for the 2003 2007 period)
(Here : http://www.transport.govt.nz/researc...-Factsheet.pdf)

Multi vehicle crashes (including motorcycle on motorcycle)

No responsibility whatsoever to the rider - 39%
Part responsilibity on rider --------------------7%
Rider responsible for crash -------------------25%

That totals 71%. The remainder 29% (which is an important figure , ignored by both ACC and AA), were crashes where the police concluded NO-ONE was to blame. Acts of God and such like. You can't just deduct the percenatge where a car was responsible from 100 percent and say that riders are responsible for all the rest

For single vehicle accidents

No responsibility whatsoever to the rider - 3% (eg straying stock)
Rider responsible for crash -------------------26%
Remainder, no fault found to anyone-------71% !!

So, in short the police (who have no reason to favour bikes, or the reverse) say that only in 26% of cases (interestingly , almost the same, multi or single vehicle) was the rider wholey to blame. But of course, if you reckon that not wearing a hi-viz vest makes the rider totally to blame, the figures spouted by Mr Katman, the AA and ACC are easy to manufacture.

[Katman]

(Here : http://www.transport.govt.nz/researc...-Factsheet.pdf)

Multi vehicle crashes (including motorcycle on motorcycle)

No responsibility whatsoever to the rider - 39%
Part responsilibity on rider --------------------7%
Rider responsible for crash -------------------25%

That totals 71%. The remainder 29% (which is an important figure , ignored by both ACC and AA), were crashes where the police concluded NO-ONE was to blame. Acts of God and such like. You can't just deduct the percenatge where a car was responsible from 100 percent and say that riders are responsible for all the rest

That pie chart you're looking at is for all motorcycle accidents.

The 29% that you conveniently put down to 'Acts of God' are the single vehicle proportion of those accidents of which 26% are the riders responsibility and only 3% where no responsibility was found.

[dipshit]

For single vehicle accidents

No responsibility whatsoever to the rider - 3% (eg straying stock)
Rider responsible for crash -------------------26%
Remainder, no fault found to anyone-------71% !!

What...???

How on earth did you reach that conclusion from the link you posted..???

One pie chart shows a breakdown of all motorcycle accidents. 25% of all motorcycle accidents are single vehicle rider at fault. 3% are single vehicle, no rider fault identified.

Where do you get this 71% no fault of anyone..???

[Katman]

What...???

How on earth did you reach that conclusion from the link you posted..???

Heaven help us with him at BRONZ's forefront.

[bogan]

from the graph on p4 (link ix posted):
Single vehicle, no rider fault identified 3%
Single vehicle, rider at fault 26%
Multi vehicle, primary responsibility 25%
Multi vehicle, no rider fault identified 39%
Multi vehicle, partial responsibility 7%

It seems bikers are directly responsible for 51% of their crashes, and other vehicles directly responsible for <39% and partially responsible for <7% (< cos not being bikers fault doesn't mean its the other motorists fault)

Or have I gone wrong somewhere?

[dipshit]

That pie chart you're looking at is for all motorcycle accidents.

Who would of thought... a motorcycling spokesman talking shit again.

No wonder the powers at be think motorcyclists are a bunch of fuckwits.

[Ixion]

Because the same pie chart to which you refer clearly shows "Single vehicle, rider at fault, 26%" . 26% + 3% = 29%. 100% minus 29% = 71%.

Of course, in your obseessional hatred of all motorcyclists, you have studiously ignored that, preferring to assume that motorcyclists (those evil , baby eating monsters) must always be to blame for everything.

Those are not MY figures. They are the official figures (and the ONLY official figures in new Zealand) from the MoT. If you don't like them because they don't sufficiently slag off motorcyclists, go argue with the Ministry.

[dipshit]

from the graph on p4 (link ix posted):
Single vehicle, no rider fault identified 3%
Single vehicle, rider at fault 26%
Multi vehicle, primary responsibility 25%
Multi vehicle, no rider fault identified 39%
Multi vehicle, partial responsibility 7%

It seems bikers are directly responsible for 51% of their crashes, and other vehicles directly responsible for <39% and partially responsible for <7% (< cos not being bikers fault doesn't mean its the other motorists fault)

Or have I gone wrong somewhere?

No, you can obviously read and understand plain English. Unlike the fuckwits in BRONZ.

[dipshit]

Because the same pie chart to which you refer clearly shows "Single vehicle, rider at fault, 26%" . 26% + 3% = 29%. 100% minus 29% = 71%.

That isn't just single vehicle accidents though. The 25% of single vehicle rider at fault, is not the percentage of all single vehicle motorcycle accidents... it the percentage of all motorcycle accidents.

[dipshit]

The title for this thread should be.... ' BRONZ full of crap: as usual.'