It's official - there are some heinous drivers out there

[T.W.R]

Plenty of learning can be done through careful study and analysis of others mistakes.

Mistakes do not have to be made by the learner.

Step up cyber giant

[BoristheBiter]

there are some terrible drivers out there and whats worse they are practiced bad drivers.

+1
This is why we should have to resit our licence every 10 years or to get out of the bad habits picked up i the preceding years.

[bogan]

Well that was a waste of time. I read the petulent bleatings of a couple of people who disagreed and who made it quite clear that they have neither access to the kind of data Charley has, nor have any apparent understanding of statistical analysis.

would you mind explaining such statements in that thread? as I was one of those not entirely satisfied with the report. I wrote a big post #215 summarizing my take on the stats.

[Genie]

and some of them drive here...
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/7326...on-wrong-side/

[Katman]

Well that was a waste of time. I read the petulent bleatings of a couple of people who disagreed and who made it quite clear that they have neither access to the kind of data Charley has, nor have any apparent understanding of statistical analysis.

Hey, I'd love to hear Professor Lambs response to the questions raised about his manner of research.

Or is he so intellectual that he doesn't feel the need to explain his methods to the likes of us?

[BoristheBiter]

Precisely, if you aren't a competent and safe rider you won't be a rider for long, or you'll be smart enough to pull your bike out a couple of times a year to go to a rally somewhere, drink piss and go home and back to your cage. My argument is that the average experienced motorcycle rider is significantly more skilled than the average experienced car driver, and that skill is not about how fast you can get to Akaroa on a Sunday afternoon, but is probably more a case of how you respond to the dangers around you - a good rider may well be the last one to Akaroa.

I have seen some riding that shits me to tears, and it's often men on large American cruisers or people of indeterminate gender on high powered sportsbikes. The question I ask myself, is how long will they continue to ride?

Where I agree with what you have said you have also missed out the overconfident experienced riders.
Just because you have done something for a long time does not make you good at it.

[Flip]

Thats a little too black and white for me. What he did say, and I don't have a copy in front of me, is that in all cases the rider failed to recognize and correctly identify the hazardous situation they were in. This has nothing to do with blame, or who was at fault. Hazard identification and taking the correct action is a black art when you have to do it in real time, some riders have the knack, most do not.

How do you teach wisdom?

[Spearfish]

This subject gets put through the wringer almost as often as a cop bashing thread.
I thought the author of the article had an appropriate name this time.

So according to some here a progressive training school would only be able to move onto the next level once the trainees have left hospital, Really??

No one would agree on how the training should be done anyway.
Why should bikers be forced to train anyway, its:
the road conditions
cagers
popo
GOVT
ACC
Group rides
HD riders
Scooters
Sport bike riders
Recreational riders
off road riders
commuter riders

but its not me though, aye.

[Ixion]

.. I really do support compulsory rider training say every 10 years, no training pass no class 6 license. I also think if you cause a accident you loose your license until you have redone the training.

But who is to provide that training? AA ? I wouldn't let an AA trained rider within 50 foot of a bike. Riding schools. Most are OK for basic training , to pass the full license. Which is not a very exciting standard And about as much use as the AA after that. Mr Katman ? He claims to be the universal expert. I think that would totally destroy motorcycling. If only because no other motorcyclist would ever meet his (self proclaimed) standard of total personal perfection.

My observation is that most "motorcycle trainers" tend to follow the Ulysses model. Ride slowly in the middle of the lane and pretend to be a two wheeled car. The only ones I would have any faith in , or be willing to follow myself would be the Police riding trainers. And that won't ever happen.

I think there is too much faith placed in the complacent phrase "training". There is nothing really teaches roadcraft and survivability other than hours in the saddle. In all road contexts. Night, heavy traffic (how are you going to train riders to deal with heavy , Auckland type traffic, if they live in Westport? ) , open road . You can't go on a X hour course to get all that.

"Training" is a nice phrase, but real training takes years.

[Katman]

Hazard identification and taking the correct action is a black art when you have to do it in real time, some riders have the knack, most do not.

How do you teach wisdom?

There's nothing 'black art' about it.

Those who don't work at developing their situational awareness and hazard identification skills are just plain lazy or inherently stupid.

[danielle]

In regards to the article, i think its awesome the cops are actively trying to reduce crashes by undertaking this sort of research

In regard to the motorcycle vs car, im more actively aware of what im doing on my bike than when im in my car, but thats just because when im in my car i have the false comfort of four walls. I beleive its me being actively aware of my surroundings that makes me a competent rider, as im not the most experienced and i have no false comforts.

Just my 2cents

[SMOKEU]

Can you let us know what sort of car you drive so we can keep away from you, please?

Don't worry, I've given up on cages. Too thirsty and unreliable.

That's scary causing 3 accidents on a average of every 6666.67kms

I only wrote 2 of those cars off, the other one didn't have THAT much chassis damage to it.

[Flip]

This subject gets put through the wringer almost as often as a cop bashing thread.
I thought the author of the article had an appropriate name this time.

So according to some here a progressive training school would only be able to move onto the next level once the trainees have left hospital, Really??

No one would agree on how the training should be done anyway.
Why should bikers be forced to train anyway, its:
the road conditions
cagers
popo
GOVT
ACC
Group rides
HD riders
Scooters
Sport bike riders
Recreational riders
off road riders
commuter riders

but its not me though, aye.

No its always us-we-me, I am the only thing in common with all these hazards and I have no (direct) control over any of the above list. The only thing I can and do asses the risks and take all steps necessary to eliminate or minimize the hazard so that it does not hurt me.

I am ultimately responsible for my own road safety.

[Katman]

I am ultimately responsible for my own road safety.

Hurrah!!!!!!!

[T.W.R]

I only wrote 2 of those cars off, the other one didn't have THAT much chassis damage to it.

still that equates to an accident every 4mths on a generalised average amount of kms per year basis which equals BAD/Dangerous driving habits