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Thread: I am an evil endangered minority

  1. #1
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    Angry I am an evil endangered minority

    Being critical of the official administration's policies on “road safety”, one runs the risk of being labeled a baby killer, Holocaust denier or Justin Bieber fan. Perhaps all three.

    But what the heck. I think that the New Zealand motoring public is being incrementally marginalised while the real villians and killers of road users go unaddressed.

    I believe that the real villian is driver inattention, but more on that later.

    The most obvious remedy I believe is ongoing driver training and education. This also most obvious omission from the official administration's current road safety programme.

    While it's still fresh in my mind, I'd like to raise the issue of zero-tolerance speed limit enforcement, particularly now it being lauded by the Police for being a resounding success over this past Queen's Birthday weekend.

    One road-related death at Queen's Birthday. I hesitate to use the term “accident” as it implies that there are Evil Forces(TM) afoot beyond the influence of the operators of motor vehicles that somehow mysteriously conspire to maim or kill. More on “dangerous roads” later.

    New Zealand's road toll currently runs at about 380 a year. To make the maths a bit easier, let's call that one a day or 365 a year.

    That means that for a three-day holiday weekend, not allowing for increased traffic flows and other matters, the “toll” should statistically be three. A five-day Easter break should be five, and for a 10-day Christmas/New Year break, it should be 10. The margin of error is probably about one or two either way.

    12 deaths over an Easter is higher than average. One death for a Queen's Birthday weekend is lower than average. One holiday weekend on its own does not a trend make. Therefore trying to claim “success” for one particular contributor to road safety is,I believe, drawing a very long bow indeed.

    Traffic safety zealots (one hesitates to use the N word from fear of Godwin's Law) believe that road deaths can be eliminated. They believe this can be done through safer vehicles and safer roads. They are fools. Fools who have never heard of the Law of Diminishing Returns or of human falibility.

    “One death is too many,” they argue. Who, other then some sort of god-hating, mother-beating, apple-pie-intolerant deadhead could argue an opposing view?

    Such a position is tantamount to the “Who isn't with us is against us” slant on the US's “war” on terrorism made famous by President George W Bush. It implies that the only solution to a problem is the one that is officially sanctioned.

    Even though they may not say so in as many words, most people accept that there is an inherent risk associated with travel. If they didn't, people would never go anywhere.

    I believe that what the New Zealand electorate needs to determine is an acceptable level of road-related deaths and injuries. Given that zero is a farcical impossibility, despite the best intentions of the zealots, then why can't such a level be set? Why can't that level be set at a point that doesn't require facile measures to be implemented, such as 70kmh open road speed limits, no overtaking anywhere ever, nobody younger than 25 allowed to be in control of a motor vehicle, and travel by permit only at weekends and during national holidays.

    Unfortunately in our society, the wishes of a few often outweigh the needs of the many. Vaccination, fluoride, 1080, road safety, alcohol, criminal justice, All Black selections. I doubt that any government would have the stomach for such a discussion or for setting a level which, I suspect, is somewhere about 300 deaths a year. As this number falls, the costs associated with bringing it down go up.

    Heaven forbid that we ever have to consider the competence of operators of motor vehicles, or the effects that alcohol and similar mind-altering substances may have on them. That's way too easy, unnecessary or irrelevant, apparently.

    So rather than implementing measures that actually make a difference we are instead to be ground down by a myriad of the facile and the inane.

    “Don't cross the centreline,” we are told. Fair enough, but that surely is a matter of time and place? The poster child of the Police's campaign against evil killers last week was SH3 through the Manawatu Gorge. A windy road, no question. But a winding road that has, in several places, stretches where a driver has a clear line of sight through a sequence of corners and who can choose to straighten the road out without any danger whatsoever.

    To suggest otherwise, as the Police endeavoured to do last week, is beyond farce, even if some zealot has had the whole length of this stretch of road double-yellow-lined. More troubling is that the utterers of this “news” appear to believe what they are saying. Even more troubling is that the media swallows all of this without question and, in the case of the Dominion Post's editorial this morning, be calling for even more.

    Zealots believe that there are such things as dangerous roads. Apart from roads made unsafe by unmarked hazards (such as diesel, stock effluent, pea gravel, livestock, small children) or the unexpected absence of roads (such as through washouts, avalanches), I argue that there is no such thing as a dangerous road. The real danger is generally created by the inability of a motor vehicle operator to cope with surprise, often exacerbated by things like following distance, mind-altering substances, or by having to use the wheel or pedals to impose one's will on the vehicle itself.

    I believe that removing road information signage (apart from that which identifies hazards, as noted above) would have a significant positive benefit on road safety for no other reason than drivers would have to concentrate harder on what they're doing, rather than making assumptions or taking no actions at all.

    The money saved from unnecessarily modifying roads could be better spent on ongoing driver training and education.

    As long as people are trusted with the operation of motor vehicles, there will be “accidents”. Even with the best will in the world, we could all drop dead at any moment. People already do this while driving cars. Even Denny Hulme did it. Who knows, even I may do it.
    "Standing on your mother's corpse you told me that you'd wait forever." [Bryan Adams: Summer of 69]

  2. #2
    Bring back road deaths - we want a higher speed limit.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    I believe that the real villian is driver inattention, but more on that later.

    The most obvious remedy I believe is ongoing driver training and education. This also most obvious omission from the official administration's current road safety programme.
    I've been considering your first statement ("in-attention") and all the different types of "road users" (as opposed to just drivers), but when you look at the NZTA reports of the top accident types the majority are like you say - failure to observe a situation. Weather it be rear-end collisions, failure to see cylists, pedestrians, motorcyclists, etc. The rest are what I would describe as "road user error", failure to take a corner due to inappropriate speed, under the influence of alchohol or drugs, etc.

    How do you train people to be more attentive (to address the largest chunk of accidents)? My initial reflections on it make me think a large portion of being attentive is simply experience. Time on the road makes it easier to spot potential dangers coming up, so that you act accoordingly, so that it is no longer a danger (or at least the danger is reduced).
    Sure you can give someone a test asking them to identify dangers and the situation around them, but my pondering makes me think that experience is what really makes it count.

    NZ has recently (or rather is about to) extend the learner licence period. Hopefully this will help achieve this aim.


    Addressing road user error might be tougher. How do you teach someone that drinking and driving means they are more likely to have an accident and hurt themselves - and more importantly - someone else? And what about those that just don't care? You can keep senidng them to training courses, but if they have no empathy or other road users what can you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    Traffic safety zealots (one hesitates to use the N word from fear of Godwin's Law) believe that road deaths can be eliminated. They believe this can be done through safer vehicles and safer roads. They are fools. Fools who have never heard of the Law of Diminishing Returns or of human falibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    “One death is too many,” they argue. Who, other then some sort of god-hating, mother-beating, apple-pie-intolerant deadhead could argue an opposing view?
    I'm with you on this one. If we took the extreme, and only allowed one road user on the public roads at a time, there would still be an accident. it's just a matter of time. So you have to accept there are going to be accidents and deaths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    I believe that what the New Zealand electorate needs to determine is an acceptable level of road-related deaths and injuries. Given that zero is a farcical impossibility, despite the best intentions of the zealots, then why can't such a level be set?
    I agree. You also have to consider the wider socio-economic benefit of being a road user. Lets say that to achieve a zero accident rate that tomorrow we banned all road users from being on a public road. Sure we could achieve the zero accident rate - but can you imageine the huge cost socio-economic cost? NZ would be plunged into being a third world state.

    So you have to conlcude, that NZ as a whole BENEFITS from preople dying on the road. Yeah I know, tough to swallow.

    Of course you can take it to the extreme, and there is a point where there are so many deaths that it also costs NZ as a whole - the social cost.

    So I am with Hitcher. We need to realise that to have a country we like to live in that there has to be an acceptable level of death and accidents on public roads, and that number is not zero.

    This of course is a bitter pill to swallow if you have lost a loved one on the public roading network (and I give you my condolences, and mean no offence to you). But everything has a risk in life (except death, funnily, which is a certainty). Playing a game of rugby, working your 9 to 5 job, sitting on the couch watching TV, having sex - everything.

    Slowing the traffic down has a very real financial cost due to the loss of labour of enjoyment of life. Of course, accidents also have a very real cost. I agree with Hitcher, the trick is to choose the balance. How many accidents and deaths are we prepared to tolerate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    Unfortunately in our society, the wishes of a few often outweigh the needs of the many. Vaccination, fluoride, 1080, road safety, alcohol, criminal justice, All Black selections. I doubt that any government would have the stomach for such a discussion or for setting a level which, I suspect, is somewhere about 300 deaths a year. As this number falls, the costs associated with bringing it down go up.
    Those aren't all quite the same comparison. Road users tend to only affect a small number of users at a time (when considering accidents). Vaccinations are often only made compulsory when the potential saving in human life is huge, and the cos tto provide that saving is low.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    I believe that removing road information signage (apart from that which identifies hazards, as noted above) would have a significant positive benefit on road safety for no other reason than drivers would have to concentrate harder on what they're doing, rather than making assumptions or taking no actions at all.
    Or it could make drivers with limited attention stretch what little they have left even more ...

    A lot of accidents happen when one road user fails to see another road user. Nothing to do with signage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    The money saved from unnecessarily modifying roads could be better spent on ongoing driver training and education.
    I'm not in agreement with you here. I would like to see a consistent level of road engineering for the duration of a road.

    For example. If 90% of the corners on a road can be taken at 80km/h, then you shouldn't suddenly have 30km/h corners on the same road. There should be consistency.

  4. #4
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    Most 'accidents' aren't.

    They are really crashes caused by inattention/distraction/fuckwittery.

    And as soon as I have invented a detector for the above I'll be making millions.
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
    " Life is not a rehearsal, it's as happy or miserable as you want to make it"

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motu View Post
    Bring back road deaths - we want a higher speed limit.
    Nothing wrong with the speed limit, 100 is fine. It's the UNITS that are messed up. That stupid k has sneaked in when it should be m Bring back 100 mph
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  6. #6
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    Change then to than and send it to the media !
    A girlfriend once asked " Why is it you seem to prefer to race, than spend time with me ?"
    The answer was simple ! "I'll prolly get bored with racing too, once i've nailed it !"

    Bowls can wait !

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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    I've been considering your first statement ("in-attention") and all the different types of "road users" (as opposed to just drivers), but when you look at the NZTA reports of the top accident types the majority are like you say - failure to observe a situation. Weather it be rear-end collisions, failure to see cylists, pedestrians, motorcyclists, etc. The rest are what I would describe as "road user error", failure to take a corner due to inappropriate speed, under the influence of alchohol or drugs, etc.
    Your right, it has been crap lately !
    A girlfriend once asked " Why is it you seem to prefer to race, than spend time with me ?"
    The answer was simple ! "I'll prolly get bored with racing too, once i've nailed it !"

    Bowls can wait !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    Being critical of the official administration's policies on “road safety”, one runs the risk of being labeled a baby killer, Holocaust denier or Justin Bieber fan. Perhaps all three..
    Unfortunately I have to agree with you.

    Speeding is the third lowest cause of fatalities on New Zealands roads. In order:

    1, Carelessness Driving
    2, Drink/ Drug driving
    3, Speeding.

    That list straight from Road Policing.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a speed freak, however so much is being placed on speed as it has a tangible outcome...

    What is interesting is that one fatal crash out of how many users on the roads compared with the past 54 years?? It is certainly not apples for apples.

    An interesting point in relation to that past weeks speed campaign is that all other resources were pulled away (where possible) from core policing (excluding CIB and specialists) to cover the Road Policing duties.

  9. #9
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    A very well written rant Hitcher, but to get 'them' to see sense is like trying to push shit up hill, and I'm talking morning after curry and beers shit too.

    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog View Post
    Most 'accidents' aren't.

    They are really crashes caused by inattention/distraction/fuckwittery.

    And as soon as I have invented a detector for the above I'll be making millions.
    I thought the motorcycle was the natural fuckwit detector? if you fail a fine is the least of your worries though.

    The whole 0 road deaths strategy is laughable, but cry-able cos the are actually trying to do it Perhaps the public get behind it as those at fault often take the innocent with them, which is fair enough, negligence causing death. Regardless of how many tickets are issued, we still have two tonnes of metal being propelled at 27m/s under the control of complete fucking morons, and this is legal; until training sorts that out, there will never be a 0 road toll.
    "A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal

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    Funny how 'everybody' says they can ride/drive safely in excess of the Gov't mandated speed limit.

    But you never hear anybody banging on about how they are safe with a breath-alcohol level higher than the G'ovt mandated limit....
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
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    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog View Post
    Funny how 'everybody' says they can ride/drive safely in excess of the Gov't mandated speed limit.

    But you never hear anybody banging on about how they are safe with a breath-alcohol level higher than the G'ovt mandated limit....
    true, some would even say they are unsafe after drinking even if under the breath alcohol limit; does that mean the govt got the speed limit wrong?
    "A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal

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    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog View Post
    Funny how 'everybody' says they can ride/drive safely in excess of the Gov't mandated speed limit.

    But you never hear anybody banging on about how they are safe with a breath-alcohol level higher than the G'ovt mandated limit....
    If it were up to me I would have a Zero limit.

    I have on three separate occasions sat in a controlled environment at Calibrations testing equipment and on each been well under the limit. In reality each time my flatmate picked me up I was pissed to bits and in absolutely in no fit state to drive let alone get on a dance floor afterwards..

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    If you don't like the current tolerance levels I'd suggest 400 fatalities a year is probably more workable.

    And I don't believe any amount of training will improve anyone's span of attention on the road, like eye colour it is what it is.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

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    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog View Post
    Funny how 'everybody' says they can ride/drive safely in excess of the Gov't mandated speed limit.

    But you never hear anybody banging on about how they are safe with a breath-alcohol level higher than the G'ovt mandated limit....
    Some would say the Gov't mandated breath alcohol limit should be zero, i agree with them, as if it WAS zero i would not drink and drive!
    A girlfriend once asked " Why is it you seem to prefer to race, than spend time with me ?"
    The answer was simple ! "I'll prolly get bored with racing too, once i've nailed it !"

    Bowls can wait !

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinfull View Post
    Some would say the Gov't mandated breath alcohol limit should be zero, i agree with them, as if it WAS zero i would not drink and drive!
    One great thing is that there is no ambiguity - You have either had or haven't had a drink.

    However you will still have the babies crying that its from the night before when they are bailed up in the morning. Well refer above!

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