Racing - relative risks? (Split thread)

[Edbear]

Those who understand need no explanation, for those who do not understand no explanantion is possible. (poorly paraphrased)

Sorry Ed, you obviously have an opinion/philosophy on how to "live" your life and seem to be defending/advocating it. Good luck with that.

Others have a different way of living their lives, get used to it.

For an explanantion closer to home: Craig Shirriffs at Hampton Downs recently. To you he would seem to be defying every sensibility, to me he was inspirational. So, do you wanna be a sensible Dad....or an inspirational Dad?

I'd like to be a Dad for as long as possible, inspirational or not. I see your point, but I think you, as others here have missed mine.

My point is about choosing an activity that has a very high chance of death or serious injury when one has family responsibilities. Note I have already made the difference between racing on tracks or circuits designed for it and have said I'd like to do a track day. I'm not advocating the "cotton wool" approach to life. My accident clearly illustrates the hazards of daily life and it won't stop me driving or riding.

Craig, as with many other riders make their choices as to acceptable risk, and even Valentino can break his leg along with the best of them. Would Craig and Valentino race the IoM TT?

I'm talking about circumstances over and above the "norm", not living in a bubble. Maybe my aversion to skydiving is more personal than based on safety - as has been pointed out it is fairly safe these days - but then I may choose other activities that other people wouldn't want to do.

Try to understand my viewpoint here.

As to being a "Sensible" Dad, I have mentioned I have nearly died 5 times, and the circumstances and situations I have been through and survived, have resulted in my children, sons-in-law, my wife and extended family to call me an inspiration to them. My children and my siblings call me their hero. I'm not gloating, as I simply feel I've had some tough times but I'm no different from many others who have likewise suffered and endured setbacks of all kinds including noted and respected members of this forum.

As a family we have always been outgoing and adventurous, enjoying NZ's environment from mountain to sea, my wife and I have enjoyed many miles of biking together, and I've already said more than once that I'd like to experience a track day. So you're being a bit unfair to insinuate I am a passive spectator to life and not an inspiration to my family.

Please, again, understand that I am differentiating between doing an activity, in this case motorcycle racing, in a purpose designed environment as against an unforgiving environment not designed for such high speeds and with precious little room for error, where the risk factor jumps by an order of magnitude. Okay if one is single without family to care for perhaps, but these children have lost their beloved Dad, and it should give us all pause to think.

[Stirts]

My point is about choosing an activity that has a very high chance of death or serious injury when one has family responsibilities.

With choosing an activity the risk perception of said activity is a very individual thing. And as you said “I may choose other activities that other people wouldn't want to do”

What you see as “unforgiving environment not designed for such high speeds and with precious little room for error” and “over and above the "norm" Paul and others that race the IoM TT see a place to test their skill level amongst their peers. Your perceived risk of IoM TT and that of the men who race there would of course differ.

Does having a family change the way we perceive risk? For some of course it does, but not for all.

[Edbear]

With choosing an activity the risk perception of said activity is a very individual thing. And as you said “I may choose other activities that other people wouldn't want to do”

What you see as “unforgiving environment not designed for such high speeds and with precious little room for error” and “over and above the "norm" Paul and others that race the IoM TT see a place to test their skill level amongst their peers. Your perceived risk of IoM TT and that of the men who race there would of course differ.

Does having a family change the way we perceive risk? For some of course it does, but not for all.

I don't think it's a matter of perceived risk, I think you'll find that even the most avid of the racer's would acknowledge the higher risk level of the TT. It's noted around the world as being an unforgiving circuit and anyone would agree that compared to a purpose designed race track, it's a case of chalk and cheese.

There has been concern at the highest level, both by Govt. and organisers at the way the speeds have crept up over the years with many new records of laptime, max speeds and average speeds, becoming too fast for the circuit, yet there is a real reluctance to either cancel the event or limit the size of bikes racing there. The IoM TT is an icon, and a dilemma for the organisers and the Govt. as to how best to manage the risk.

Now you've got 600's posting +120mph laps. Bikes are getting faster and better and more and more, accidents are likely to be fatal, it's a simple matter of physics. Some have posted the history of the circuit, but you must remember it started when bikes were struggling to top 60mph, now they're topping out at 3x that speed. Even purpose built race tracks are being modified to cope with the speeds attainable on modern machinery with improvements to run-offs and barrier materials in an effort to keep the riders as safe as possible. You can't do that at the TT or most road circuits for that matter.

[slowpoke]

Exactly what are these "responsibilities" you speak of?

If you asked just about anybody to rank qualities they'd like to see in a parent/partner I reckon "longevity" would be waaaaay down the list.

Nah, quite frankly I don't care what you think is important. You seem intent on defending your life choices and deriding others so there is no winning this argument.

And for the record, Craig won a Best Newcomer Award for his efforts at the IOM. It's part of why he and Stroudy (another IOM competitor) are head and shoulders above the rest of the current racers in NZ. They have the drive to not only persue their dreams but also the hard won skills to achieve them. What better example could you set?

But do what ever helps ya sleep at night mate, and let others do the same.

I'd like to be a Dad for as long as possible, inspirational or not. I see your point, but I think you, as others here have missed mine.

My point is about choosing an activity that has a very high chance of death or serious injury when one has family responsibilities. Note I have already made the difference between racing on tracks or circuits designed for it and have said I'd like to do a track day. I'm not advocating the "cotton wool" approach to life. My accident clearly illustrates the hazards of daily life and it won't stop me driving or riding.

Craig, as with many other riders make their choices as to acceptable risk, and even Valentino can break his leg along with the best of them. Would Craig and Valentino race the IoM TT?

I'm talking about circumstances over and above the "norm", not living in a bubble. Maybe my aversion to skydiving is more personal than based on safety - as has been pointed out it is fairly safe these days - but then I may choose other activities that other people wouldn't want to do.

Try to understand my viewpoint here.

As to being a "Sensible" Dad, I have mentioned I have nearly died 5 times, and the circumstances and situations I have been through and survived, have resulted in my children, sons-in-law, my wife and extended family to call me an inspiration to them. My children and my siblings call me their hero. I'm not gloating, as I simply feel I've had some tough times but I'm no different from many others who have likewise suffered and endured setbacks of all kinds including noted and respected members of this forum.

As a family we have always been outgoing and adventurous, enjoying NZ's environment from mountain to sea, my wife and I have enjoyed many miles of biking together, and I've already said more than once that I'd like to experience a track day. So you're being a bit unfair to insinuate I am a passive spectator to life and not an inspiration to my family.

Please, again, understand that I am differentiating between doing an activity, in this case motorcycle racing, in a purpose designed environment as against an unforgiving environment not designed for such high speeds and with precious little room for error, where the risk factor jumps by an order of magnitude. Okay if one is single without family to care for perhaps, but these children have lost their beloved Dad, and it should give us all pause to think.

[Berries]

I'm talking about circumstances over and above the "norm", not living in a bubble.

But whose norm ? You'd like to do a track day at some point. Riding a motorbike on a racing circuit ? Utter madness in the eyes of some people.

I don't think you will ever get an answer to your question, because everyone is different. There is no norm, other than on Cheers.

[Edbear]

Exactly what are these "responsibilities" you speak of?

If you asked just about anybody to rank qualities they'd like to see in a parent/partner I reckon "longevity" would be waaaaay down the list.

Nah, quite frankly I don't care what you think is important. You seem intent on defending your life choices and deriding others so there is no winning this argument.

And for the record, Craig won a Best Newcomer Award for his efforts at the IOM. It's part of why he and Stroudy (another IOM competitor) are head and shoulders above the rest of the current racers in NZ. They have the drive to not only persue their dreams but also the hard won skills to achieve them. What better example could you set?

But do what ever helps ya sleep at night mate, and let others do the same.

Sigh... Why is it that some can't get over the person and see the post. Did you read my post immediately above yours?

Each person has to decide what, for them, is acceptable risk, balancing the odds. I have done no more than point out what is well known, understood and recognised about the IoM. Recognized and acknowledged by the racers themselves and the organisers and the Govt. Recognized and acknowledged around the world - as so many have said the event would be banned in most other countries. I am not in any way a minority in my opinion nor am I trying to impose my views on others. Mentioning my own life's experiences is only to respond to the implication I am spectator wanting to wrap everyone in cotton wool.

You are being facetious and betraying a strange view that longevity is not important to "just about anyone". You may be a hard-hearted person but everyone I know doesn't want to lose their mate or anyone they love and care about, and do not normally participate in death-defying acitivities just to be "an inspiration". A dead hero, is just that, and his talents and his influence for good, his character that made him popular have also died. The loved ones left behind to grieve.

Now try to understand, life sucks at times and my own recent accident is testimony to that. You miss the point that I am referring to circumstances beyond the "norm" and see my response to Berries for that.

But whose norm ? You'd like to do a track day at some point. Riding a motorbike on a racing circuit ? Utter madness in the eyes of some people.

I don't think you will ever get an answer to your question, because everyone is different. There is no norm, other than on Cheers.

Yeah, I'm not referring to life itself, and the 'norm' I refer to is daily life, which obviously involves activities carrying risk. The road toll in NZ testifies to the risk of driving/riding on the open road, yet we do it every day. We fly planes, race all manner of machinery, dive, climb mountains, explore... and as you say we all have differing views on what is 'sane' and 'safe'.

But as I said to slowpoke above, as regards road racing and in particular circuits such as the TT, everyone including the racers, acknowledge the far higher risk of a circuit not designed for the very high speeds now being achieved as opposed to a purpose built track.

So I question that those who have a loving family to consider, weigh up the potential cost. I can, as I've said, fully understand the attraction, the thrill, the desire to race and I'm not opposed to that per se, and some of the responses have been enlightening and I appreciate many of the opinions expressed. Some, though display an attitude that would make me hope they are not married with children...

[Shaun]

Sorry I don't mean to offend, I'm just saddened by the premature death of such an obviously well liked person.

I 100% agree with Tony on this

[Dare]

This whole thread.

I think what it comes down to is would you rather die doing what you love or live doing what you don't?
People are not the same. You can't force them to be either.

The best sometimes die, but if they didn't do what they did, they wouldn't be the best. That is who they are.
If Picasso didn't paint because it would be too risky, would he be happy? Would he be remembered?

[Edbear]

I think what it comes down to is would you rather die doing what you love or live doing what you don't?
People are not the same. You can't force them to be either.

The best sometimes die, but if they didn't do what they did, they wouldn't be the best. That is who they are.
If Picasso didn't paint because it would be too risky, would he be happy? Would he be remembered?

Your point is quite valid of course and I understand why people do what they do. My point was re: balancing responsibilities when making such decisions.

I have asked the Mods to delete the split thread following discussions with a KB member whom I have a great deal of respect for due to the sensitive timing. And I would like to apologise to anyone concerned if I have sounded insensitive. It was never my intention to do so.

[imdying]

I have asked the Mods to delete the split thread following discussions with a KB member whom I have a great deal of respect for due to the sensitive timing. And I would like to apologise to anyone concerned if I have sounded insensitive. It was never my intention to do so.

That's a shame; it appears you've scared the crap out of yourself in your off and this has given you the opportunity to work some things out in your own mind. If that's the case, then it's nice that in at least some small way some good might have come out of what is a shit time for the people concerned... it's also likely that you're not alone in these thoughts, so the thread has quite likely helped not only just yourself.

[Edbear]

That's a shame; it appears you've scared the crap out of yourself in your off and this has given you the opportunity to work some things out in your own mind. If that's the case, then it's nice that in at least some small way some good might have come out of what is a shit time for the people concerned... it's also likely that you're not alone in these thoughts, so the thread has quite likely helped not only just yourself.

Thanks mate. I think you're quite right and I hope something positive has come out of it. But I know there are people hurting at present and I was made aware of this by a well respected KB member who himself has been an inspiration to most of us here.

[Stirts]

I am in agreement with Imdying. I think you should retract your request to the mods for removal. As you said "it should give us all pause to think"

[jellywrestler]

your biggest worry edbear looks like RSI from all your typing.

[slowpoke]

Your point is quite valid of course and I understand why people do what they do. My point was re: balancing responsibilities when making such decisions.

I have asked the Mods to delete the split thread following discussions with a KB member whom I have a great deal of respect for due to the sensitive timing. And I would like to apologise to anyone concerned if I have sounded insensitive. It was never my intention to do so.

That's a shame; it appears you've scared the crap out of yourself in your off and this has given you the opportunity to work some things out in your own mind. If that's the case, then it's nice that in at least some small way some good might have come out of what is a shit time for the people concerned... it's also likely that you're not alone in these thoughts, so the thread has quite likely helped not only just yourself.

I am in agreement with Imdying. I think you should retract your request to the mods for removal. As you said "it should give us all pause to think"

Nup, it's offensive, hurtful and judgmental from someone who knows very little about the activity and/or people involved. You think someone enters the IoM without "pausing to think"? Fool.

[Edbear]

Nup, it's offensive, hurtful and judgmental from someone who knows very little about the activity and/or people involved. You think someone enters the IoM without "pausing to think"? Fool.

What was that they say about opinions? You're quite entitiled to yours, but it would appear that you are in the minority in your humble opinion...

I have had a discussion with the member I mentioned who was much more diplomatic than you and I respect his opinion highly as one who is personally involved. It was following this discussion that I have apologised for any offence I may have caused and asked for the thread to be deleted. This member, contrary to your good self, understands that I meant no offence and had good intentions and we remain friends. Posts such as yours are those from someone who is reactionary and judgmental, quick to criticise and factually incorrect, making assumptions about people you don't know.

I have followed the IoM TT for as long as anyone here, and know quite a lot about it, and the people who organise and race there, thank you.

The judgment of the Mod, who pointed out to me site policy, is that the thread should remain and I accept his decision. I'm sure members on the whole will agree with the decision and won't be upset. Of course everyone is free to comment and by expressing themselves can only bring understanding and balance to what is obviously a sensitive topic.